Guy Fawkes

Finder

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Ok we have some Brits here, I was reading up more on Mr Guy Fawkes, and pretty much got from the first many sites I visited an pretty anti-Guy Fawkes feelings from the Brits. I dived into even more and was surprised this isn't so true as many more in support of him crept up. Indeed I found during the greatest Brits contest a few years back like our own Greatest Canadians, he placed a respectable 30th place above many other Great Brits.

So.... What do our Brits here feels about him. Knowing most of yas are conservative, I am just wondering what I've gottien myself into. lol.


"Remember, remember, the 5th of November
The Gunpowder Treason and plot;
I know of no reason why Gunpowder Treason
Should ever be forgot.

Guy Fawkes, Guy Fawkes,
'Twas his intent.
To blow up the King and the Parliament.
Three score barrels of powder below.
Poor old England to overthrow.
By God's providence he was catch'd,
With a dark lantern and burning match

Holloa boys, Holloa boys, let the bells ring
Holloa boys, Holloa boys, God save the King!

Hip hip Hoorah!
Hip hip Hoorah!

A penny loaf to feed ol'Pope,
A farthing cheese to choke him.
A pint of beer to rinse it down,
A faggot of sticks to burn him.
Burn him in a tub of tar,'
Burn him like a blazing star.
Burn his body from his head,
Then we'll say: ol'Pope is dead.

Hip hip Hoorah!
Hip hip Hoorah!"
 

Blackleaf

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He was a Catholic terrorist who, along with his cronies, tried to blow up the King and the Houses of Parliament because Catholics didn't have as many rights in England as Protestants did.

But not the same Houses of Parliament that we have now. The ones we have now were built in the 1830s after the other ones were (ironically) destroyed by fire.
 

Blackleaf

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I did answer, but someone has deleted my posts.

Two of them I posted by accident, because I accidentally quoted the second post I made. But that second post I made has also been deleted.
 

Blackleaf

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Finder said:
Blackleaf, why do many Brits seem to like him and others not so much?
As I quoted he had placed 30th in greatest brits.

Guy Fawkes shouldn't be too popular amongst the British.

Why do you think we celebrate Guy Fawkes Night every 5th November and burn life-sized effigies of him on top of bonfires as though he is being burnt at the stake?

We are celebrating the fact that a terrorist and his pals didn't manage to blow up our Houses of Parliament whilst our politicians and our Monarch was sitting in them.
 

Daz_Hockey

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Nov 21, 2005
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I shall answer also....Guy Fawkes, some might say was a terrorist, yes he tried to blow up parliment, so effectively he was a terrorist who deserved to be hung, drawn and 1/4'd....but that was a long time ago, and we burn him every year.

shame they cant do that to another bunch of catholic terrorists
 

Blackleaf

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It's also a good excuse to drink alcohol and eat black peas in vinegar whilst watching fireworks.
 

Daz_Hockey

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black peas in viniger?....never heard that one......I usually have a decent BBQ though, with smashing fireworks
 

Blackleaf

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For me, Fawkes was just a terrorist. I've already made up my mind. He was also friendly with Catholic Spain - England's arch-enemy at that time.

Gunpowder Plot, 1605.

Guy Fawkes is most famous for his involvement in the Gunpowder Plot of 1605, which he was placed in charge of executing due to his military and explosives experience. The plot, masterminded by Robert Catesby, was a failed attempt by a group of provincial English Roman Catholic conspirators to kill King James I of England and VI of Scotland, his family, and most of the Protestant aristocracy in one swoop by blowing up the Houses of Parliament during its State Opening. Guy Fawkes may have been introduced to Robert Catesby by a man named Hugh Owen who was responsible for intelligence on England at the court in Brussels. Sir William Stanley is also believed to have recommended him and Guy Fawkes named him in his interrogation, leading him to be arrested in Brussels and imprisoned for a year before being released, after the discovery of the plot. It was Stanley who first presented Fawkes to Thomas Winter in 1603 when Winter was in Europe. Stanley was the commander of the British in Flanders at the time and the man who had handed Deventer and the most part of his garrison back to the Spanish in 1587 nearly wiping out the gains that Leicester had made in the Low Countries. Leicester’s expedition was widely regarded as a disaster for this reason. Stanley was a known Catholic sympathiser.

The plot itself may have been occasioned by the realisation that Spain was in far too much debt and was fighting too many wars to help out English Roman Catholics. The plotters realised that no outside help would be forth-coming unless they took action. Fawkes and the other conspirators were able to rent a cellar beneath the House of Lords. They had first tried to dig a mine under parliament but this would have been hard going, as they had to store the dirt and debris and carry it away in barrels. They were much relieved to find a cellar for rent. By March 1605, they had hidden eighteen hundred pounds of gunpowder in the cellar, with the intent of detonating it during the State Opening of Parliament with the King and Lords in attendance. The plotters then wished to abduct the Prince Charles. Several of the conspirators were concerned, however, about fellow Catholics who would have been present at parliament during the opening. One of the conspirators had written a letter of warning to Lord Monteagle, who received it on October 26. The conspirators became aware of the letter the following day, but they resolved to continue the plot after Fawkes had confirmed that nothing had been touched in the cellar.

Lord Monteagle had been suspicious, however, and the letter was sent to the secretary of state who initiated a search of the vaults beneath the House of Lords. Fawkes was discovered and arrested during a raid on the cellar in the early morning of 5th November. He was tortured over the next few days, after special permission to do so had been granted by the King. Eventually, he revealed the names of his co-conspirators (who were either already dead or whose names were known to the authorities). On 31st January, Fawkes, Wintour, and a number of others implicated in the conspiracy were taken to Old Palace Yard in Westminster, where they were hanged, drawn, and quartered.



The Gunpowder Conspirators are discovered and Guy Fawkes is caught in the cellar of the Houses of Parliament with the explosives.
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Also, the American word "guy" meaning "man - as in "Hey, look at that guy over there!" comes from Guy Fawkes, although his proper name was Guido.
 

Finder

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I understand that Daz and BlackLeaf and thanks for your answers. But if he is regonized as a terorist as the ancient ryme pretty much stats as it is anti-Guy Fawkes, then why did he place so highly among greatest brits? I believe it was run by the BBC but I might be wrong. Also I've seen some things in Brit pop culture which would hint at him being somewhat reformed by history, and almost a British "Che" in someways. I just don't understand where this pop cult around the guy comes from. If you look at the list of top 100 brits, this guy placed 30th above many other famous brits.

I have a feeling he may be populer with extreme leftists and anarchists in Brit, and I wonder if they had voted in mass for him to get him up there, but there are so many other figurers you'd think that group would vote for first. So yeah I'm still confused with this one as it makes little sence to me.
 

Blackleaf

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Finder said:
I understand that Daz and BlackLeaf and thanks for your answers. But if he is regonized as a terorist as the ancient ryme pretty much stats as it is anti-Guy Fawkes, then why did he place so highly among greatest brits? I believe it was run by the BBC but I might be wrong. Also I've seen some things in Brit pop culture which would hint at him being somewhat reformed by history, and almost a British "Che" in someways. I just don't understand where this pop cult around the guy comes from. If you look at the list of top 100 brits, this guy placed 30th above many other famous brits.

I have a feeling he may be populer with extreme leftists and anarchists in Brit, and I wonder if they had voted in mass for him to get him up there, but there are so many other figurers you'd think that group would vote for first. So yeah I'm still confused with this one as it makes little sence to me.

It was probably Catholics who voted for him, or people who don't even understand the actual events of the Gunpowder Plot.

If someone nowadays tried to blow up the Houses of Parliament, they will NOT be popular. They'll be terrorists.
 

Blackleaf

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Guy Fawkes wasn't the only highly unlikely entry in the 100 Greatest Britons list, including one of the leaders of the 1916 Easter Rising, who was obviously voted for mainly by terrorist-loving Northern Irish Catholics. According to wikipedia....

"In 2002, the BBC conducted a vote to discover the 100 Greatest Britons of all time. The poll resulted in some unlikely candidates including Guy Fawkes, Aleister Crowley, Johnny Rotten, and King Richard III. It also included two living Irish nationals (Bono and Bob Geldof) and James Connolly, the Scottish born Irish nationalist who was executed as a traitor in 1916.

The highest-placed Scottish entry was Alexander Fleming in 20th place, with the highest Welsh entry Owain Glyndŵr in 23rd."
 

Finder

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Hmm still find it odd he placed so highly, and you would have thought the Catholics would have voted for one of the Catholic Queens. Oh well I guess odder things have happend.
 

Blackleaf

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November 5th is "Bonfire Night" in Britain. For weeks beforehand young children post themselves at busy points or junctions with a "guy" and importune passer-by with the ritual "A penny for the guy?" chant. The guy used to be a doll made of straw and sticks, much like a scare-crow, and was usually dressed in a high hat and cloak. Nowadays, it can be made of anything that will burn and the chant had better be answered with something worth considerably more than a penny! The event "celebrates" the foiling of the Gunpowder Plot in 1605 which was meant to blow up the Protestant King James I and his parliament and The "guy" is meant to be an effigy of Guy Fawkes, the best known of the Catholic conspirators behind the plot. However, much of the truth about the plot was immediately suppressed and a lot more has been lost in the mists of time. Here we present of the things you are less likely to know about Fawkes and the Plot forever associated with his name.


Guy Fawkes Night, or Bonfire Night, is celebrated in Britain every 5th November. Huge bonfires are lit and fireworks light up the sky. Black peas in vinegar are eaten and huge amounts of alcohol is drunk.


Children make life-size effigies of Guy Fawkes then sit with them on the streets asking passers-by for "Money for the guy." On bonfire night, the effigy of Guy Fawkes is burnt on top of the bonfire.



Even nowadays, Yeomen of the Guards have to search at or near either House of Parliament to look for "combustibles".

By the 18th Century, it became the custom to search the vaults under the Houses of Parliament to look for "combustibles." In 1760, the vaults were owned by a wine merchant named "Old Bellamy". At the end of the search, the searchers would drink some of the port that he sold as a loyal toast. At the start of the 20th Century, it became one of the jobs of the Yeomen of the Guard to look for "combustibles" and, to this day, it is tradition that they drink some port after their search, although without the loyal toast.
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Guy (real name Guido) Fawkes was born in York. A widely respected, "staunch and courageous" soldier he served in the Spanish, rather than the English, army so that he could be free to practice his religion.


Guido Fawkes was not a convert to Catholicism as is sometimes maintained. Many English Catholics were outward Protestants in order to avoid persecution and hold official offices. His father, who died when Guido was eight, was a notary and may have been a secret Catholic. Guido was subsequently brought up in the household of his mother's second husband and his family certainly were noted Catholics. The headmaster at his school was also a secret Catholic.


Fawkes was not the ringleader of the Gunpowder Plot but he was one of the five original plotters. He was, however, chosen to light the fuse which would set off the explosion. He was then to escape to the continent.


On May 20 1604 Robert Catesby, Tom Wintour, Jack Wright, Thomas Percy and Guido Fawkes met at the Duck and Drake in the Strand to discuss the position of Catholics in England. They met at Catesby's invitation and he remained the ringleader and most persistent conspirator throughout. At this meeting Catesby suggested that a scheme should be devised to "blow up the Parliament House with gunpowder" because "In that place have they done us all the mischief."


Before his succession to the English throne, James I, son of the Catholic Mary Queen of Scots, had led English Catholics to believe that he was sympathetic to their plight and would introduce religious toleration. When this did not materialise English Catholics felt betrayed. It was against this deep sense of betrayal that the Powder Treason was hatched.


At the time of the Gunpowder Plot, some English Catholics were exploring the option of "buying" toleration from the Government with large amounts of cash. They were encouraged by the persistent rumours that James I was about to convert to Catholicism. The rumours were encouraged by James himself.


The priests, usually Jesuits from abroad, who secretly ministered to the Catholics were deliberately kept ignorant of the plot. They consistently argued against any action which might make the plight of their flock worse. This did not save those who were discovered in their hiding places by the authorities after the plot had been foiled.


The Palace of Westminster at the time was a warren of meeting rooms, private homes, taverns and shops of every kind. The ramshackle layout was not replaced until 1840 when the modern Houses of Parliament were built.


The gunpowder was not stored in a cellar. It was in a storehouse at ground level. It and, a nearby apartment, were leased to John Whynniard, Keeper of the King's Wardrobe. The storehouse was used to store the needless amounts of firewood and coal which were required for normal cooking and heating. It was originally part of the great mediaeval kitchen of the ancient palace and had a stone vaulted ceiling.


The House of Lords occupied the upper floor above the storehouse. Whynniard's apartment was on the first floor with direct access to the Lord's chamber. It was sometimes used as a robing or committee room.


On March 25th 1605, Thomas Percy sub-let the apartment and the cellar from Whynniard for £4. Mrs Susan Whynniard, who had put up some resistance on behalf of a certain Skinner, the previous tenant, and a Mrs. Bright who kept her coal in the storehouse were paid off.


Guido Fawkes, using the alias of John Johnson, moved into the apartment which was only large enough to accommodate one person. Percy lodged at his own property at Gray's Inn Road. Catesby had property across the river in Lambeth. Between March 25 and July 20 thirty-six barrels of gunpowder were brought across the river from Catesby's lodgings.


In August, Fawkes and Wintour discovered that the original store of gunpowder had "decayed" and become useless. More gunpowder, and timber to conceal, it therefore had to be brought across the river.


The plotters planned to abduct James's nine year old daughter, the Princess Elizabeth (later Elizabeth of Bohemia) and proclaim her queen once James and his government had been killed.


The plot was betrayed on October 26 but the government "let it ripen". The king was not told about it until November 1. In fact, the evidence suggests that the warning letter was concocted, perhaps by Robert Cecil (Lord Salisbury and Chief Minister) himself.


On November 2nd the Council decided that some action should be taken but decided to wait for another two days before even inspecting the storehouse. This relaxed approach has fuelled suspicion that the government, and the virulently anti-Catholic Robert Cecil in particular, used the plot to enable them to construct a case against leading Catholic families and the hated Jesuits who ministered to them. The first suggestions that Cecil had masterminded the entire affair were made as early as November 17 1605.


There is some confusion about when, by whom and how many searches were made on November 4th. Salisbury only mentioned one but the version given by James himself has two. The first, sometime during the day, was led by the earl of Suffolk who noticed that there was an unusually large amount of timber in the storehouse. He also discovered from Whynniard that the storehouse had been leased to Percy. This caused some surprise and embarrassment for the Privy council. Percy was a kinsman and employee of the Earl of Northumberland "one of His Majesty's greatest subjects and councillors" and the council were reluctant to cast any aspersion on such an august figure. James, according to his own account, was having none of this and suggested that a second search should be carried out. Thus, a second search party, under Sir Thomas Knevett, went back to Westminster around Midnight on Monday November 4th. There they found a "very tall and desperate fellow" booted and spurred as if for flight skulking in the shadows. He was immediately apprehended. Fawkes gave his name as John Johnson, servant to Thomas Percy, and maintained that alibi until he was broken by torture two days later.


The question as to what Fawkes was doing "booted and spurred" at midnight and hours before he was due to light the fuse has never been properly addressed.


The gunpowder found in the storehouse was brought to the Tower of London. When it was examined it was found that this batch of gunpowder had also decayed and would never have exploded. This did not stop the government from proclaiming that an appalling danger had been narrowly averted.


To boost the sense of "danger averted" the government put it about that the plotters had dug a mine under the palace of Westminster between December 11th 1604 and March 25th 1605 in order to transport the gunpowder to a cavity under the House of Lords. It had to be abandoned, it was claimed, because some of the foundations were more than eleven feet thick. No evidence of this has ever been found.


The political measures taken by the government were accompanied by an intense propaganda that "provided the correct climate for persecution". The disabilities under which Catholics lived were now multiplied: they could no longer practise law, nor serve in the Army or Navy as officers. A Catholic could not act as executor of a will or as a guardian to a minor. A Catholic could not possess a weapon, could not receive a university degree, could not vote in local elections (repealed in 1897) nor in parliamentary elections (repealed in 1829.) They were ordered to marry in the Anglican Church, have their children baptised there and be buried in its churchyards. In 1613 a bill was introduced into the House of Commons to force Catholics to wear a red hat or parti-coloured stockings (like a clown's) not only so that they could be easily distinguished, but also so that they could be "hooted at" whenever they appeared. The provisions, however, were not put into effect.


During the alarms caused by a suppose Catholic massacre of Protestants in Ireland in 1641, orders were given to search "Rosebie's house, the Tavern and such other Houses and Vaults as are near the Upper House of Parliament" for powder, arms and ammunitions. Similar alarms arose during the Titus Oates affair in 1678. Regular patrols were set up at this time.


The custom of searching the vaults under Parliament had become ritualised by the 18th century. In 1760 a new feature was added. The vaults at that date were rented by a wine merchant known as Old Bellamy. The searchers ended their search by drinking the loyal toast in port which he supplied. By 1807 it had become the regular practice, supported by custom, for "The Lord Chamberlain of England" to make a search for "combustibles" under or near either House of Parliament before its Opening. After the fire which destroyed the old Palace of Westminster n 1834 Bellamy's moved to Parliament Street but continued to supply the port.


From the beginning of the twentieth century the search was carried out by the Yeomen of the Guard. Port is still drunk but, since 1976 when it was revived, without the loyal toast.


The first Guido Fawkes bonfires were lit in London on November 5th 1605. The citizens knew little except that the King's life had been saved. They proceeded to light bonfires in celebration. The authorities disapproved but bowed to the inevitable and declared that there could be bonfires so long as they were "without danger or disorder".


The first of what would become the annual Gunpowder sermon was preached shortly after the discovery of the plot in 1605. In 1606, Bishop Lancelot Andrewes (who would go on to preach another nine Gunpowder sermons) made a solemn comparison to the day of resurrection. In 1618 he declared "Here we have the making of a new Holy-day."


In 1647, two years before it ordered the execution of James's son, Charles I, the Puritan parliament banned all feasts except the 5th of November celebration on the ground that the day stood for the foiling of papists. The day continued to be celebrated during the Commonwealth, the only national feast to survive.


The feast travelled across the Atlantic to New England where it became Pope Day on which effigies of the pope were burned. It became an occasion for mob revelry and mob rivalries. George Washington condemned it as "ridiculous and childish".

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