Gun Registry Dies Tomorrow!

[Lineman]

5P
Though I read and respect your posts I cannot support any revamping of the long gun registry. Criminals will commit robberies, murder etc regardless of whether there is a gun available or not. a gun is but 1 tool they use to carry out that crime. If you really want to start reducing and preventing crime simply start with making parents accountable for the actions of their kids. Junior breaks a window mom and dad should pay for it. Junior commits a gun crime Mom or Dad go to jail for it. Time to put down the remote and see what junior is doing and who he's hangin with.

 

[Colpy]

Five.....a rebuttal to your gun control plan, point by point:

1. Firearms are difficult to uniquely identify. Many older guns have no serial number, and many guns share serial numbers. In the old system, where your handgun was registered by an official "expert", 17 Walther PPs were registered under the same number. It was the patent number. In my own experience, the FIRST "permanent" gov't sticker with a uninque "Firearms ID Number" (issued for guns without serial numbers) promptly fell off the rifle I put it on, at which point I threw them all out.

The Auditor General said the data was "unreliable", which means it will not stand up in court. USELESS!

2. Roughly this is what exists now. Unfortunately, the criteria is appearance only. Contrary to popular belief, there is NO difference in operation between a semi-auto hunting rifle and a semi-auto paramilitary rifle. NONE! An Access to Information request by the NFA demanded all data used to determine prohibition of weapons in Canada after Kim Campbells 1992 law. They got a Shooter's Bible
(an illustrated catalogue of practically every gun made) with the nasty LOOKING guns circled, and subsequently banned, and in some cases seized without compensation.

3. The right to be free from unreasonable search is one of the foundations of our free society. It is simple. NO legal representative has the right to enter my dwelling unless a crime HAS BEEN COMMITTED, and their is clear evidence (probable cause) to believe there is evidence pertaining to that crime inside my residence. Your type of thinking is the basis of much of the outrage felt by gun owners. We ARE NOT criminals, yet you would have us searched without warrant, without probable cause. No criminal would have to stand for this type of treatment. This entire concept is OUTRAGEOUS!!!!

Here is sensible gun control.........

1. Dump all registration.

2. Initiate a strict regimen of training and qualifying for different levels of licenses for possession and use, from simple possession of manually repeating long guns for hunting, to possession of handguns to carry for self-defense (professionally or otherwise).

3. Catch somebody with a gun? Can they produce a license that allows them possession of that type of weapon in that circumstance? Yes.....OKAY. No?.......Go to jail, go directly to jail, do not pass go

Cheap
Simple
As effective as anything else.

Now THERE's a compromise......

 

[Hank C]

Here is sensible gun control.........

1. Dump all registration.

2. Initiate a strict regimen of training and qualifying for different levels of licenses for possession and use, from simple possession of manually repeating long guns for hunting, to possession of handguns to carry for self-defense (professionally or otherwise).

3. Catch somebody with a gun? Can they produce a license that allows them possession of that type of weapon in that circumstance? Yes.....OKAY. No?.......Go to jail, go directly to jail, do not pass go

I agree, the license phase is what needs to be focused on, to make sure that the wrong person cannot buy a firearm.

You want to cut down on gun crimes in Toronto and other cities, you will make a bigger dent by actually spending the cash to man all our border crossings and ramp up security, until then nothing will change. I have never figured out how registering the guns of white farmers and suburbanites is going to stop the little black and asian gangs in Toronto from killing each other?

 

[Jay]

Re: RE: Gun Registry Dies Tomorrow!

The joke is it was sold as crime prevention. In reality all it might do is tell you which law abiding citizen had his gun stolen and used in a crime. I support the requirement for possesion and acquisition certificates, proper storage, and even firearms safety courses. Prevention must deal in the "before", the registry was an "after" and did NOTHING to stop crime.

It is a joke considering the amount of crime committed by Liberals to get us where we are at with the registry.

 

[Jay]

Tories expected to weaken, not kill, gun registry

The federal government, now armed with another damning report about the costs of the long gun registry, reportedly plans to weaken it, but not dismantle it.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/05/17/gun-registry-changes.html

 

[Em]

Couple of interesting points ...

The majority of Canadians aren't politically smart enough to comment on these issues of rights etc and can just leave us normal people alone

Well, there was a survey done a while back by some group of comedians or something (anybody have more concrete links?) that said something like, "... the majority of Canadians believe the Canadian government should ban the use of Di-hydrogen Oxide because it kills X number of people every year, it only takes X volume to kill a person, it is used by X number of industries ..." etc. Well, I assume everyone here knows, but they are talking about good 'ole H2O ... water. Hehe, NEVER take those STUPID polls as gospel. And I might point out that the poll did NOT say that they support the Gun Registry. They support SOME FORM of gun control. Well ... the government is NOT planning on erasing the entire gun control system currently in effect. They just want to make it WORK. Minus the current idiotic waste of money Gun Registry.

My other point: I can see why SOME people would be frustrated about the dismantling, but not because they WANT the registry, but rather because they paid their money (fees and taxes) to have their gun registered ... and after Day is done, much of their spent money will be for nothing. Perhaps the government should consider some kind of rebate for those who will no longer be registered? Oh wait ... no one has any idea who's registered ... and it's hackable ... hmm ... perhaps I should hack in and say I had 42 long guns registered so I can get that many rebates!! 8)

 

[Lineman]

Five.....a rebuttal to your gun control plan, point by point:

1. Firearms are difficult to uniquely identify. Many older guns have no serial number, and many guns share serial numbers. In the old system, where your handgun was registered by an official "expert", 17 Walther PPs were registered under the same number. It was the patent number. In my own experience, the FIRST "permanent" gov't sticker with a uninque "Firearms ID Number" (issued for guns without serial numbers) promptly fell off the rifle I put it on, at which point I threw them all out.

The Auditor General said the data was "unreliable", which means it will not stand up in court. USELESS!



2. Roughly this is what exists now. Unfortunately, the criteria is appearance only. Contrary to popular belief, there is NO difference in operation between a semi-auto hunting rifle and a semi-auto paramilitary rifle. NONE! An Access to Information request by the NFA demanded all data used to determine prohibition of weapons in Canada after Kim Campbells 1992 law. They got a Shooter's Bible
(an illustrated catalogue of practically every gun made) with the nasty LOOKING guns circled, and subsequently banned, and in some cases seized without compensation.

3. The right to be free from unreasonable search is one of the foundations of our free society. It is simple. NO legal representative has the right to enter my dwelling unless a crime HAS BEEN COMMITTED, and their is clear evidence (probable cause) to believe there is evidence pertaining to that crime inside my residence. Your type of thinking is the basis of much of the outrage felt by gun owners. We ARE NOT criminals, yet you would have us searched without warrant, without probable cause. No criminal would have to stand for this type of treatment. This entire concept is OUTRAGEOUS!!!!

Here is sensible gun control.........

1. Dump all registration.

2. Initiate a strict regimen of training and qualifying for different levels of licenses for possession and use, from simple possession of manually repeating long guns for hunting, to possession of handguns to carry for self-defense (professionally or otherwise).

3. Catch somebody with a gun? Can they produce a license that allows them possession of that type of weapon in that circumstance? Yes.....OKAY. No?.......Go to jail, go directly to jail, do not pass go

Cheap
Simple
As effective as anything else.

Now THERE's a compromise......

Agreed! but with one exception, the handguns for personal defense. Even at 20 feet away, if someone rushes at you with a knife you will not be able to draw your weapon on time. The only way you could defend yourself is at the first inkling of trouble you would have to draw your weapon and have it at the ready. Police are trained to do this, the public is not. Leave handguns in the hands of police and shooting enthusiasts. Just my opinion.

 

[FiveParadox]

I don't quite understand why it should be such a contentious thing, just to register one's weapons. I don't see why it should be so terribly hard, and such a breach of one's rights, to "register" one's weapon with some sort of registry, or institution, to ensure that one is authorized to possess that weapon. If one is authorized for the weapon, then a license can be issued, and there's no problem — if there's a reason that one should not own that weapon, then the registry could be "programmed", so to speak, to deny the registration and the license.

If there's a serious problem with a particular person owning a weapon, then why should the Government of Canada not have the right to force persons to attempt to register weapons upon purchase, and to reserve the right to reject those registrations, and to reject one's privilege to own that weapon, if some need or circumstance demands?

Forget beaurocracy, I am talking about an actual registry.

 

[Colpy]

Re: RE: Gun Registry Dies Tomorrow!

I don't quite understand why it should be such a contentious thing, just to register one's weapons. I don't see why it should be so terribly hard, and such a breach of one's rights, to "register" one's weapon with some sort of registry, or institution, to ensure that one is authorized to possess that weapon. If one is authorized for the weapon, then a license can be issued, and there's no problem — if there's a reason that one should not own that weapon, then the registry could be "programmed", so to speak, to deny the registration and the license.

If there's a serious problem with a particular person owning a weapon, then why should the Government of Canada not have the right to force persons to attempt to register weapons upon purchase, and to reserve the right to reject those registrations, and to reject one's privilege to own that weapon, if some need or circumstance demands?

Forget beaurocracy, I am talking about an actual registry.

You've got it a little backwards Five. One has to have a license BEFORE they can purchase a weapon, which makes registration redundant as a method of keeping legal guns out of the hands of criminals.

TOP TEN REASONS WE HATE REGISTRATION:

1. It inevitably, invariably leads to the confiscation of the weapons registered. Look at the history of registration in England, Australia, and Canada.

2. It is extremely difficult, because of the large number of weapons with identical numbers, various numbers, or no numbers.

3. It is expensive as hell, as the Liberals have recently proven.

4. It is useless in court. Because of the difficulties in tracking the registered guns, or even in registering them properly, the data is always flawed, to the point it will NOT even stand up in court.

5. It is useless as a crime prevention tool. It takes a tiny number of guns to arm criminals.............Jamaican gun violence in Toronto in light of 72 years of handgun registration......'nuff said.

6. It only impacts the honest shooter. Criminals, by definition, don't join the system.

7. The costs, bureacracy, etc put gun shops out of business,,,,,,,,,,I have to travel 100+ kilometers to get to a decent gun shop........20 years ago there were two specialty shops in town, and most department stores sold long guns. (K-Mart, Canadian Tire, Walmart, Sears.....)

8. The bureacracy created is inevitably gun-ignorant, and often anti-gun, which makes dealing with them an unpleasant experience.

9. It requires me to carry another damn piece of paper when I go out, gives the powers that be another reason to harass me.....

10. It is, to some of us, an infringement of our ancient right to go armed.

 

[nelk]

The guncontrol measures were a full success!

Not because the authorities have/had a complete handle on who and what firearms are out there, especially not the ones (persons and type of guns) which endanger human life;

not because we have less(gun) crime now ;

not because any offences to the regulation could potential make you a "Criminal"(improper storage even in your own residence)etc,

not because the "liberal" Government proved it can push some laws down their citizens throats without democratic consent by popluace, but only guided by their own ill meaning and misleading
interests,

not because antigun lobby groups won out and painted hunters, sportshooter and collectors almost as an abomination to humankind,

not because Marc Lepine acted as a Jihadist, a fact very well concealed;not helping their cause nor political correct for that.

Are the liberals crying out very loud now, unlike the guncontrol proponents? not really

Because the Government of that day (like some before) have successfully completed the mission!

The outcome is not of any concern to them.They done their job and collected cudos and praise (voters) from the antigun side.

Because as proven with other of their money wasting schemes, the Billion plus $"s have been transfered to approved and connected party friends and supporters. Taxpayers paid!

That what it is all about! :roll:

 

[missile]

So, the gun registry isn't really dead..just the fees for registering your firearms has been rescinded. Harper and the Tories only get half marks for this legislation.

 

[Jay]

In a way...

Long longs, shot guns come off the registry and everything else remains. I think this is what was happening before the liberals registry was introduced.

 

[Lineman]

Re: RE: Gun Registry Dies Tomorrow!

I don't quite understand why it should be such a contentious thing, just to register one's weapons. I don't see why it should be so terribly hard, and such a breach of one's rights, to "register" one's weapon with some sort of registry, or institution, to ensure that one is authorized to possess that weapon. If one is authorized for the weapon, then a license can be issued, and there's no problem — if there's a reason that one should not own that weapon, then the registry could be "programmed", so to speak, to deny the registration and the license.

If there's a serious problem with a particular person owning a weapon, then why should the Government of Canada not have the right to force persons to attempt to register weapons upon purchase, and to reserve the right to reject those registrations, and to reject one's privilege to own that weapon, if some need or circumstance demands?

Forget beaurocracy, I am talking about an actual registry.

Just a suggestion, try to not focus on the weapon. a gun itself needs someone to pick it up, load it, and fire it. That individual chooses to aim it at either a paper target, wild game or another human. The crime is committed when the individual chooses the human being. If that same individual were to pick up a hammer and use it on another human would we blame the hammer? A license says you have passed all qualifications and background checks and are deemed responsible enough to not make the wrong choice. If an individual has a license and acts in a manner contrary to those previous qualifications which deems them a danger then yes arrest them, search thier premises and confiscate their weapons. Prove they are a threat in our courts and ban them from any future possesion or find them competent and return their guns. The problem is an individual determined to own a gun and do harm with it regardless of the above will obtain one much the the way Toronto youth and others across this country have done.

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: Gun Registry Dies Tomorrow!

Why would anyone in their right mind give people the unlimited, unabridged and unrestricted right to purchase whatever weapons they wish, to store them in any matter they wish, and to use them for whatever purposes they wish?

Five, you miss the point. There is no "unlimited, unabridged and unrestricted right.....". You still have to get a licence and be subject to the background checks inherent in that procedure. Storing guns still has to be done per the law, no matter what type of gun. I have no answer to your last point about whatever purposes they want, because there is no answer.

The simple fact is that criminals, or people who want to use a firearm for criminal purposes will neither register their weapons, or use registered weapons. Case in point being the Mounties killed in Mayerthorpe last year. That gun was restricted to begin with, was not registered and still killed the Mounties. How is a registry supposed to work when the guns used by people with criminal intentions will never be registered?

I know it is a cliche, but it is true. Guns don't kill, people do. Anyone wanting to use a gun for criminal purposes will find one, it will not be registered.

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: Gun Registry Dies Tomorrow!

In a way...

Long longs, shot guns come off the registry and everything else remains. I think this is what was happening before the liberals registry was introduced.

I believe this is true as well. You still need a licence, and you still need to go through the background checks and firearms training, as I understand it. I do stand to be corrected if wrong, though.