God Bless American... Let Us Pray

[Haggis McBagpipe]

In the U.S. (where else): In Dover, Pennsylvania, teachers are now forced to teach something called 'intelligent design' which "holds that the universe is so complex that it must have been created by an unspecified higher power"... in other words, teachers now must teach creationism alongside evolution.

School board member William Buckingham is the instigator in this, says, “I think it's a downright fraud to perpetrate on the students of this district, to portray one theory over and over. What we wanted was a balanced presentation.” He is a born-again Christian and believes in creationism.

What do you make of this?

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: God Bless American...

I think it points to the religious right being the real force behind government in the US. Intelligent design has been thoroughly debunked because it's basic premise...that complex organisms had to evolve all at once...is a purposeful misunderstanding of science.

That doesn't matter to the creationist crowd though. They don't care about science.

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

I think they have the right to do so. As you see, it is taught ALONGSIDE the evolutiontheory of Darwin, not INSTEAD OF. I think it's just plain stupid (sorry to say, but sometimes I get a bit pissed) to just conclude from this "they [the religious right] don't care about science", by that corrupting the discussion.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: God Bless American...

It is not a scientific theory though, Rick, it is a religious one. It has been debunked because it does not follow the scientific method and purposely misconstrues the scientific data available. It therefore should not be taught in science class alongside real scientific theory.

The religious right developed the theory as a way of legitimizing their religious beliefs. Doing so shows a purposeful disregard and a contempt for science.

Nobody is saying that they cannot have their religious beliefs, just that those beliefs are not scientifically sound and do not belong in science class.

The religious right has no use for science. While they are happy to use the technology science develops, they stand steadfastly against the use of science because it contradicts their belief in a literal understanding of the Bible. While evolutionary theory is the most obvious facet of the science vs. religion argument that argument extends into virtually all parts of science, including the environment, scientific testing on animals, stem cell research, and (depending on the religious sect) even the performance of basic medical procedures like blood transfusions.

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

For me, it's OK to discuss a theory, even if it's the evolution-theory of Darwin, when you got the arguments to discuss it. Although I support Darwin's theory, you can as easily find scientists opposed to his theory who are not a part of the religious right. I do think this criticism gets a lot more of attention at Christian schools and other Christian educational institutions than at secular schools, and there is the huge possibility discussion is corrupted by a teacher who says "follow the Bible, and reject Darwin's theory, no matter what". There are also cases in which Christian schools do not deny the Darwin's theory, but do think God was the Creator of all and intended to have God's creatures evolve more and more as described by Darwin.

Science has a lot of different forms, and I'm not convinced as you say that the "argument [science vs. religion argument] extends into virtually all parts of science". But than first, I do have to know your definition of science: only "natural" science (it's hard to translate that one from Dutch), or also things like astrology, chemistry etc.?

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: God Bless American...

I am referring to all science, Rick. I am not referring to all religions or sects of Christianity though, just to the radical fundamantalist ones. They are the driving force behind this and are doing it because of a political agenda, not a scientific one.

While there are scientists who disagree with Darwin's theory of evolution, they do not disagree with the idea of evolution overall interpretation of it. That's fine. It is the way science works. Evolutionary theory itself has evolved since Darwin's time as new data has become available. That data points overwhelmingly to species evolving over time though, and does in no way require intelligent design as a part of the theory.

Something really funny about the Christian right and evolutionary theory....In their faith-based universities they teach evolution almost exclusively. The reason for this is that neither straight creationism nor intelligent design are scientifically sound and as institutions of higher learning they are forced to acknowledge that if their students are to be employable in the scientific world.

My understanding is that the fundamentalist/evangelical movement is not so pervasive in Europe as it is in the United States and, increasingly, in Canada. Is that understanding correct?

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

Well, I know for the Netherlands that the evangelical movement is not very strong. They account for only 5% or so of the total Dutch population, and many communities are very isolated, especially in the so-called Veluwe area, which is part of the Protestant "Bible-belt", which exists of parts of the provinces of Zeeland, Zuid-Holland (South-Holland) and Gelderland. Their political power is very small - of the 150 seats in parlaiment, about 4 are occupied by Reformed (evangelical) Christians, and another 3 by a party of Orthodox Protestants and Catholics. So that is a total of 7 on 150 seats. What I do find a bit strange is the big fuss there is in the "New World" when it comes to the teaching of evolution. Here it isn't even a topic, everybody accepts Darwin's theory is the right one. But to conclude: for the Netherlands, the evangelical movement has only little power.

 

[passpatoo]

Re: RE: God Bless American...

Something really funny about the Christian right and evolutionary theory....In their faith-based universities they teach evolution almost exclusively. The reason for this is that neither straight creationism nor intelligent design are scientifically sound and as institutions of higher learning they are forced to acknowledge that if their students are to be employable in the scientific world.

quote]

If I may weigh in here...

I have some contact with people in at least one christian university in Ohio. I was not aware of the evolutionary teachings there, but in this case at least, the people whom I know who teach, run, and attend this school are all moderate mennonites. I think that this just speaks to the fact that, like with the muslim population, not all are extremists.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: God Bless American...

That's important though...they aren't all extremists and you have to be careful about that. Most of the population of North America believes in some form of Christian god, but the majority of them just go to church and leave it at that.

Something I've never been able to figure out is the denial of evolution in rural areas. Anybody who has spent any time on a farm has an inherent knowledge of the power of selective breeding. It is the basis of animal husbandry. A knowledge of that makes evolution seem like a natural theory, at least in my mind...just more extreme and spread out over a longer time period.

 

[ElPolaco]

As a "religious" person, I've never much focused on the evolution vs. creation debate. My emphasis has been that my interpretation of bringing Christian values into the political arena is, in most cases, on the complete opposit side of the political spectrum from most Christians. I believe in divine creation, but I also believe that creation changes and that God has a direct influence on this change. My fear of introducing their rigid view of creation into school cirriculum is not so much that particular subject, but what they may later introduce in other subject areas, in particular, the areas of peace and social justice.
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/156/story_15602.html

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: God Bless American...

There is no doubt that they are trying to force their extreme social beliefs on us and want them in the schools. It's almost funny the way they push the Ten Commandments as being universal. You shall have no gods before me is not a universal belief, for instance.

Back to the evolution thing though. Most scientists have some sort of belief in a god. The majority of scientists in the western world are Christians of one sort or another, yet they have no trouble reconciling scientific fact with their beliefs. It is only a very small portion of Christianity that insists on a literal reading of the Bible.

 

[ElPolaco]

The interesting thing is that these extremist/fundamentalist/evangelical Christians have nothing against the use of science for "chrstian" purposes such as "defense" and "bussiness" (killing and greed).

 

[Haggis McBagpipe]

It is getting so ugly. The Washington Post did a series on what it is like to be young and gay in a small-town in very conservative Oklahoma.

The boy interviewed at length was subsequently hounded - not by the locals, mind you, but by a hardcore evangelical church group from out-of-state. They had packed up their prejudices and signs and come to the little town in Oklahoma with the sole intention of harassing the boy and the locals who dared to tolerate his existence. They carried signs that read, in various different ways, 'Some creatures do not deserve to live.'

Even scarier: such hate-filled moral vigilantism, not seen since the heyday of the KKK, barely made the news.

 

[ElPolaco]

...and our anti-war demonstrations are labeled as "hate fests".

 

[edgerunner]

This is a great example, Haggis of the manners with which the right-winged/fundamentalist/evangelical practitioners convey their beliefs compaired to the manner with which the evolution-based followers do.
They are pushy and self-righteous and tend to prostheletize(sp?) their heartfelt beliefs on all others in an order to confirm their own doubts and strengthen their own community. These intrusive acts are an important part of their religious practices and help them to form a stronger and sounnder axis-of-reality in the scientifically reinforced evolution based explaination of life and living.
Out of insecurity, they lash out and try to impose their creation B.S. on the world.
I look at this with humorous eyes and can see their wheels spinning and going nowhere against Evolution's well backed arguement.
If the children in any school-system in the world are tought in their homes about Evolution and life, they will have less chance of being absorbed into the pityful grasp of the right and that is where we can hold our ground, I feel.

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

I know one thing, if an evangelical group would harass gays by claiming "they don't have the right to live" ... well they would be in some serious trouble back here

 

[Reverend Blair]

The interesting thing is that these extremist/fundamentalist/evangelical Christians have nothing against the use of science for "chrstian" purposes such as "defense" and "bussiness" (killing and greed).

That's more an acceptance and use of technology than an interest in science though. The same science that makes nuclear bombs can be used to provide electricity, for instance.

When it comes to business I find that the far right, Christian or not, is way closer to Ned Ludd than anybody else on the political spectrum. Look at their reliance on fossil fuels and resistance to the science behind Kyoto. They want to stick with an old technology in spite of all of the scientific evidence that technology is killing us.

 

[passpatoo]

One of the firefighters from next door came over to my office last week to chat, and we got into the environment. Irregardless of what reference I provided he simply wouldn't believe that global warming is happening. I don't believe this guy is political at all, but the impression I got, (and to be fair, he isn't the only person I have crossed paths with like this)was that having to make any change on behalf of the environment would simply be to inconvenient. His lifestyle (power boats, snow machines, quads, 4X4 jeep, etc.) simply didn't afford making the changes and therefore global warming couldn't even be entertained. Ultimately this I believe is where the far right are coming from. Kyoto etc. cannot be entertained due to it's inconvenience. Scientific evidence is totally irrelevent.

 

[Haggis McBagpipe]

Re: RE: God Bless American... Let Us Pray

he isn't the only person I have crossed paths with like this)was that having to make any change on behalf of the environment would simply be to inconvenient. His lifestyle (power boats, snow machines, quads, 4X4 jeep, etc.) simply didn't afford making the changes and therefore global warming couldn't even be entertained. Ultimately this I believe is where the far right are coming from. Kyoto etc. cannot be entertained due to it's inconvenience. Scientific evidence is totally irrelevent.

I have to agree with this. Not long ago, I was on a forum of well-to-do professionals (sneaking in the back door, as it were). They all, almost to a man, had the toys (supersized SUVs, etc), and they all, to the man, had zero intention of giving them up for any silly reason like saving the environment.

Some were in denial about the environmental impact... others declared that it was their 'right' as Americans to use up the world's resources.

All thought the issue was very funny.

They were proud that they could afford the gas for these toys, where others could not. They considered having such toys a feature of being rich.. and although they thought the issue was funny, there was also an amazing amount of hostility at any suggestion that they were wrong to be this way.

It was a unique and disturbing experience to hear what that group of rich guys really felt, when they were 'behind closed doors' and could speak freely.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: God Bless American...

I've run across it many times. It is a purposeful ignorance for the sake of entertainment.