Fury as academics claim 9/11 was 'inside job

thomaska

Council Member
May 24, 2006
1,509
37
48
Great Satan
So what do the conspiracy theorists have to say about the Al Jazeera tape of Bin Laden with the highjackers of the WTC planes?

That Bush has someone working at Al Jazeera also? Or maybe he even has agents in Al Qaeda itself?


:roll:
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
10,506
33
48
The Evil Empire
Re: RE: Fury as academics claim 9/11 was 'inside job

Toro said:
I think not said:
Logic 7 said:
Nice try, but the problem is, it was the only power down ever done in the world trade center.

Prove the WTC was "powered-down" the weekend before 9/11

The conspiracists never "prove" anything. Its all just theory and conjecture.

I need the entertainment.
 

Kevin Welsh

New Member
Sep 6, 2006
5
0
1
Will the new videotape with OBL and the hijackers put an end to all the CTs?

First, OBL admitted to the whole thing years ago on tape and that didn't stop the CTs

Now he is on tape with two of the hijackers apparently discussing the plot before it happened.

As noted by thomaska, was Bush reading the children's book on 9/11 while checking his watch to see if Osama was on schedule with the agreed upon flights?

"Goddamn Osama, he better crash those f*cking planes on time like we planned or I'll be eating shit for dinner tonight, that's for sure."
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
63
California
Omissions omissions omissions

What about the other two crash sites? Pentagon and Pennsylvania?

Were they also planned within the White House?

How did they get the 19 (20) Saudi chappies to agree to kill themselves for the infidel???

More revealing is the great need of the theorists to make it the fault of the nation which suffered the most damage.

Scary people floating around in cyber.
 

mabudon

Metal King
Mar 15, 2006
1,339
30
48
Golden Horseshoe, Ontario
RE: Fury as academics cla

Still, what nations have lost more AFTERWARDS, VS which nation has used it to their advantage??

Seems to be the motivation behind the conjectures of US involvement on SOME level

Hell, Occam's razor says that there's SOMETHING not right about this, what "we" have been told vs. what has come of it, and that thing is a simple tool
 

Toro

Senate Member
Kevin Welsh said:
Will the new videotape with OBL and the hijackers put an end to all the CTs?

First, OBL admitted to the whole thing years ago on tape and that didn't stop the CTs

Now he is on tape with two of the hijackers apparently discussing the plot before it happened.

As noted by thomaska, was Bush reading the children's book on 9/11 while checking his watch to see if Osama was on schedule with the agreed upon flights?

"Goddamn Osama, he better crash those f*cking planes on time like we planned or I'll be eating shit for dinner tonight, that's for sure."

:lol: :lol:

Welcome Mr. Welsh. We look forward to you participation.

Rationality is always appreciated.
 

Kevin Welsh

New Member
Sep 6, 2006
5
0
1
Toro wrote:
Welcome Mr. Welsh. We look forward to you participation.

Rationality is always appreciated.

Thank you. Glad to be here.

It's easy to be rational once the facts are known. Getting the facts straight is the hard part.
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
4,600
100
63
are you serious about that magic tape awhile ago where he was talking about everything? I've seen that tape..they are...liberal in their interpretations of unidentifiable noise, which even they admit.

Don't get me wrong, he may well be admitting to it. That still means dick in an investigation, As Al-Qaeda itself admitted the highjacking right off the bat. The problem is, six or seven other groups, not all muslim extremists, ALSO claimed responsibility right off the bat, they have just been drowned out since then.

So if Al-Qaeda is the one group who admited to it, who did do it..whats is your proof? How can you say for certain it wasn't say "The Army of God" which has equally as much evidence?
 

Lineman

No sparks please
Feb 27, 2006
452
7
18
Winnipeg, Manitoba
Re: RE: Fury as academics claim 9/11 was 'inside job

Logic 7 said:
thomaska said:
Yes of course, there you go. THIS proves it. :roll:

What do you think would be more Logical, to have the power off during the week when everyone is trying to work, or cut it when there is minimal impact on the workforce?

Most financial institutions or offices, and certainly any prosperous enough to have office space in the WTC are going to have independent power supply for things like security systems and locks, if only battery backup.

Try again...

Nice try, but the problem is, it was the only power down ever done in the world trade center.

Well now, as you can likely see by the avitar I work in the electrical industry.We have shut downs to replace aging cables weekly. It may seem strange to you, anything normal likely would, but we try not to get killed working on old equipment, we shut it down and replace it with new. I don't imagine the workers in New York are any different. thomaska called it correctly, minimal impact on weekends and at night. Also, a lot of equipment which is near the same vintage as the WTC has come to the end of its service life and is being replaced. All things wear out eventually, much like your act...
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
10,506
33
48
The Evil Empire
When someone decides to shut down the economic engine of the US (not to mention the planet) for a single hour, it becomes breaking news. Logic 7 has no proof the WTC was shut down, other than a screwball that allegedly worked for Fiduciary Trust and sent an email out to a few dozen bozos.

Let's see the evidence Logic 7.
 

Logic 7

Council Member
Jul 17, 2006
1,382
9
38
Re: RE: Fury as academics claim 9/11 was 'inside job

Lineman said:
Logic 7 said:
thomaska said:
Yes of course, there you go. THIS proves it. :roll:

What do you think would be more Logical, to have the power off during the week when everyone is trying to work, or cut it when there is minimal impact on the workforce?

Most financial institutions or offices, and certainly any prosperous enough to have office space in the WTC are going to have independent power supply for things like security systems and locks, if only battery backup.

Try again...

Nice try, but the problem is, it was the only power down ever done in the world trade center.

Well now, as you can likely see by the avitar I work in the electrical industry.We have shut downs to replace aging cables weekly. It may seem strange to you, anything normal likely would, but we try not to get killed working on old equipment, we shut it down and replace it with new. I don't imagine the workers in New York are any different. thomaska called it correctly, minimal impact on weekends and at night. Also, a lot of equipment which is near the same vintage as the WTC has come to the end of its service life and is being replaced. All things wear out eventually, much like your act...



Doenst matter you can twist it like the way you want, but it was the only power down in world trade center in history,and it was just prior to 9-11.36 hours is way enough to have put the right explosive at the right places, just like forbes describes peoples going in and out, all week end, nice try.
 

Logic 7

Council Member
Jul 17, 2006
1,382
9
38
I think not said:
Where's your "proof" the WTC was powered-down the weekend before the attacks?


There you go.


""Did the World Trade Center towers undergo a deliberate “power-down” on the weekend prior to the 9-11 terrorist attacks? According to Scott Forbes, a senior database administrator for Fiduciary Trust, Inc. – a high-net investment bank which was later acquired by Franklin Templeton – this is precisely what took place. The perfect time for CIA agents to plant explosives to bring down the towers""


http://la.indymedia.org/news/2004/04/108539.php
 

Toro

Senate Member
When you pick through the conspiracists' theories, they all begin to fall apart.

As you'd expect.

The story...

On the weekend of 9/8,9/9 there was a 'power down' condition in WTC tower 2, the south tower. This power down condition meant there was no electrical supply for approx 36hrs from floor 50 up. I am aware of this situation since I work in IT and had to work with many others that weekend to ensure that all systems were cleanly shutdown beforehand ... and then brought back up afterwards. The reason given by the WTC for the power down was that cabling in the tower was being upgraded ... Of course without power there were no security cameras, no security locks on doors and many, many 'engineers' coming in and out of the tower.
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/forbes01.htm

Did this provide an opportunity for explosives to be planted?

Our take...

There are problems with this account.

#1, it's sourced by one person only, Scott Forbes, and corroboration seems limited. In an interview he said, for instance:

SF: Many, many people have talked to me about the power down and one person was contacted by a journalist as a backup source for my information.
http://killtown.blogspot.com/2005/12/scott-forbes-interview.html

But why only one? And where is this backup? The WTC held the offices of many large, important companies, and to have their central computers turned off would have been extremely inconvenient. To put it mildly. Thousands of people would have known about this, from local employees to staff in other parts of the company. So where are they?

Actually there may be a clue in a subsequent Forbes interview:

GW: How do you know that there was no electricity from floor 50 up, if Fiduciary Trust was on much higher floors -- starting at the 90th floor?

SF: I can't absolutely verify that there was no power on lower floors ... all I can validate is that we were informed of the power down condition, that we had to take down all systems and then the following day had to bring back up all systems ...
http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2005/11/interview-with-scott-forbes.html

So Forbes doesn’t appear to have any direct knowledge of conditions on floors below his own, and perhaps above (which makes sense, of course). If only one or two companies were affected then this would make the lack of corroboration more noticeable; of course, this also presents fewer opportunities to prepare the building for demolition.

#2, why would such a lengthy "power down" be necessary for a cable upgrade? This plainly didn't have anything to do with the main power lines into the building, as it only affected the floors from 50 upwards. What work could possibly be done on the floor below, that required turning off the power for 50+ floors (or whatever it reall was) for 36 hours? If there were rewiring to be done, isn’t it more likely that this would be carried out in parallel, and companies would be switched from the old system to the new in a few minutes?

#3, are we supposed to believe that security systems fed off the same power system as everything else? So a power cut meant no security at all? Look at the affected tenants, if the “floor 50 upwards” version is true -- First Commercial Bank (floor 78 ), Fuji Bank (79-82), Fiduciary Trust, Atlantic Bank of New York... Do you really think these companies would live with a situation like that, or not object that all security for their offices has been disabled?

#4, even if all this were true, it still only provided access to half of one tower. What about the North Tower? WTC7? No mention of "power downs" there.

#5, the power down time was initially reported as 36 hours, and a subsequent interview cut this to 26:

SF: All systems were shutdown on Saturday morning and the power down condition was in effect from approximately 12 noon on Saturday September 8, 2001.

GW: When did it end?

SF: Approximately 2PM on Sunday 9/9.
http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2005/11/interview-with-scott-forbes.html

Preparing for a controlled demolition takes very much longer:

In 24 days, CDI's 12 person loading crew placed 4,118 separate charges in 1,100 locations on 9 levels of the structure. Over 36,000 ft. of detonating cord and 4,512 non-electric delay devices were installed in CDI's implosion initiation system. As the implosion required the detonation of a total of 2,728 lb. of explosives, CDI implemented 36 "primary delays" and an additional 216 “micro-delays" in the implosion initiation sequence in an attempt to keep detonation overpressure to a minimum.
http://www.controlled-demolition.com/default.asp?reqLocId=6&reqItemId=20020304145120

That's 24 days to prepare a smaller building (33 levels including basements) for demolition. And they didn't have to hide the 4,118 charges or 36,000 feet of detonating cord, either. Oh, and remember that Forbes said he worked the weekend, so there were independent witnesses around for at least some of that time. If this “power down” was a cover for demolition preparations, then it’s hard to know exactly what could be done in the time available.

People occasionally email to tell us that setting up a demolition need not involve so much work. Which begs the question why they know this, and Controlled Demolition do not. Anyway, this quote pops up a lot:

If explosions did cause the towers to collapse, the detonations could have been caused by a small amount of explosive, he said. "It could have been a relatively small amount of explosives placed in strategic points," Romero said.
http://911research.wtc7.net/disinfo/retractions/romero.html

But would that really explain all the reasons used to justify the controlled demolition theory in the first place? We’re told it’s suspicious that “all the concrete was pulverised”, for example: could a “relatively small amount of explosives” explain that? Not according to Jim Hoffman, who tells us that required at least ten times the energy available from gravity alone.

Then we’re told the towers collapsed too quickly, that the only way that could have happened is if the resistance were removed. This might involve many of the columns being taken out at the same time through demolition, in waves running down the building. Does that sound like a “relatively small amount” of explosives to you?

There does seem to be a couple of different argument here.

When it’s suggested that a gravity-driven collapse could have produced the observed effects and collapse times, we’re told that’s virtually impossible, there’s not enough energy, the towers were too strong, far more energy was required than available.

But when the difficulty in planting these explosives is pointed out, we’re told that, actually maybe a smaller amount would have done, after all.

Is there a contradiction here? Are some people switching their positions for the sake of convenience? We’ll leave that for you to decide, but in the meantime, if there is a way to demolish tall buildings with minimum effort then the real specialists in controlled demolition appear not to have heard about it. Here’s the Landmark Tower, demolished in March 2006:

The button to bring down the 30-story office tower at Seventh and Houston streets, one of the tallest buildings ever to be imploded, will be pushed at 8 a.m., said John Angelina president of D.H. Griffin of Texas, a Houston company that has served on the demolition team, which also includes Midwest Wrecking in Fort Worth.

Crews have been working feverishly this week on the final preparations on work that began in November.

"We'll work as hard today as we have in the last four months," Brian Choate, Midwest Wrecking's chief executive, said Thursday.
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/14122036.htm

Around four months for the Landmark Tower, yet we’re supposed to believe far larger buildings were prepared over a weekend, without anyone noticing?

Could it still be done? Perhaps there were many hundreds of "engineers", all of which have been persuaded not to talk. Maybe they used special hi-tech explosives and so didn't require as many charges. But with no evidence to support any of that, it’s really just speculation..

And we're not the only people to express doubts on this, either. Even sites like 911review are calling the letter a hoax ( http://911review.com/errors/wtc/forbes.html ).

http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc_power_down.html
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
21,887
848
113
70
Saint John, N.B.
Toro said:
When you pick through the conspiracists' theories, they all begin to fall apart.

As you'd expect.

The story...

On the weekend of 9/8,9/9 there was a 'power down' condition in WTC tower 2, the south tower. This power down condition meant there was no electrical supply for approx 36hrs from floor 50 up. I am aware of this situation since I work in IT and had to work with many others that weekend to ensure that all systems were cleanly shutdown beforehand ... and then brought back up afterwards. The reason given by the WTC for the power down was that cabling in the tower was being upgraded ... Of course without power there were no security cameras, no security locks on doors and many, many 'engineers' coming in and out of the tower.
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/forbes01.htm

Did this provide an opportunity for explosives to be planted?

Our take...

There are problems with this account.

#1, it's sourced by one person only, Scott Forbes, and corroboration seems limited. In an interview he said, for instance:

SF: Many, many people have talked to me about the power down and one person was contacted by a journalist as a backup source for my information.
http://killtown.blogspot.com/2005/12/scott-forbes-interview.html

But why only one? And where is this backup? The WTC held the offices of many large, important companies, and to have their central computers turned off would have been extremely inconvenient. To put it mildly. Thousands of people would have known about this, from local employees to staff in other parts of the company. So where are they?

Actually there may be a clue in a subsequent Forbes interview:

GW: How do you know that there was no electricity from floor 50 up, if Fiduciary Trust was on much higher floors -- starting at the 90th floor?

SF: I can't absolutely verify that there was no power on lower floors ... all I can validate is that we were informed of the power down condition, that we had to take down all systems and then the following day had to bring back up all systems ...
http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2005/11/interview-with-scott-forbes.html

So Forbes doesn’t appear to have any direct knowledge of conditions on floors below his own, and perhaps above (which makes sense, of course). If only one or two companies were affected then this would make the lack of corroboration more noticeable; of course, this also presents fewer opportunities to prepare the building for demolition.

#2, why would such a lengthy "power down" be necessary for a cable upgrade? This plainly didn't have anything to do with the main power lines into the building, as it only affected the floors from 50 upwards. What work could possibly be done on the floor below, that required turning off the power for 50+ floors (or whatever it reall was) for 36 hours? If there were rewiring to be done, isn’t it more likely that this would be carried out in parallel, and companies would be switched from the old system to the new in a few minutes?

#3, are we supposed to believe that security systems fed off the same power system as everything else? So a power cut meant no security at all? Look at the affected tenants, if the “floor 50 upwards” version is true -- First Commercial Bank (floor 78 ), Fuji Bank (79-82), Fiduciary Trust, Atlantic Bank of New York... Do you really think these companies would live with a situation like that, or not object that all security for their offices has been disabled?

#4, even if all this were true, it still only provided access to half of one tower. What about the North Tower? WTC7? No mention of "power downs" there.

#5, the power down time was initially reported as 36 hours, and a subsequent interview cut this to 26:

SF: All systems were shutdown on Saturday morning and the power down condition was in effect from approximately 12 noon on Saturday September 8, 2001.

GW: When did it end?

SF: Approximately 2PM on Sunday 9/9.
http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2005/11/interview-with-scott-forbes.html

Preparing for a controlled demolition takes very much longer:

In 24 days, CDI's 12 person loading crew placed 4,118 separate charges in 1,100 locations on 9 levels of the structure. Over 36,000 ft. of detonating cord and 4,512 non-electric delay devices were installed in CDI's implosion initiation system. As the implosion required the detonation of a total of 2,728 lb. of explosives, CDI implemented 36 "primary delays" and an additional 216 “micro-delays" in the implosion initiation sequence in an attempt to keep detonation overpressure to a minimum.
http://www.controlled-demolition.com/default.asp?reqLocId=6&reqItemId=20020304145120

That's 24 days to prepare a smaller building (33 levels including basements) for demolition. And they didn't have to hide the 4,118 charges or 36,000 feet of detonating cord, either. Oh, and remember that Forbes said he worked the weekend, so there were independent witnesses around for at least some of that time. If this “power down” was a cover for demolition preparations, then it’s hard to know exactly what could be done in the time available.

People occasionally email to tell us that setting up a demolition need not involve so much work. Which begs the question why they know this, and Controlled Demolition do not. Anyway, this quote pops up a lot:

If explosions did cause the towers to collapse, the detonations could have been caused by a small amount of explosive, he said. "It could have been a relatively small amount of explosives placed in strategic points," Romero said.
http://911research.wtc7.net/disinfo/retractions/romero.html

But would that really explain all the reasons used to justify the controlled demolition theory in the first place? We’re told it’s suspicious that “all the concrete was pulverised”, for example: could a “relatively small amount of explosives” explain that? Not according to Jim Hoffman, who tells us that required at least ten times the energy available from gravity alone.

Then we’re told the towers collapsed too quickly, that the only way that could have happened is if the resistance were removed. This might involve many of the columns being taken out at the same time through demolition, in waves running down the building. Does that sound like a “relatively small amount” of explosives to you?

There does seem to be a couple of different argument here.

When it’s suggested that a gravity-driven collapse could have produced the observed effects and collapse times, we’re told that’s virtually impossible, there’s not enough energy, the towers were too strong, far more energy was required than available.

But when the difficulty in planting these explosives is pointed out, we’re told that, actually maybe a smaller amount would have done, after all.

Is there a contradiction here? Are some people switching their positions for the sake of convenience? We’ll leave that for you to decide, but in the meantime, if there is a way to demolish tall buildings with minimum effort then the real specialists in controlled demolition appear not to have heard about it. Here’s the Landmark Tower, demolished in March 2006:

The button to bring down the 30-story office tower at Seventh and Houston streets, one of the tallest buildings ever to be imploded, will be pushed at 8 a.m., said John Angelina president of D.H. Griffin of Texas, a Houston company that has served on the demolition team, which also includes Midwest Wrecking in Fort Worth.

Crews have been working feverishly this week on the final preparations on work that began in November.

"We'll work as hard today as we have in the last four months," Brian Choate, Midwest Wrecking's chief executive, said Thursday.
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/14122036.htm

Around four months for the Landmark Tower, yet we’re supposed to believe far larger buildings were prepared over a weekend, without anyone noticing?

Could it still be done? Perhaps there were many hundreds of "engineers", all of which have been persuaded not to talk. Maybe they used special hi-tech explosives and so didn't require as many charges. But with no evidence to support any of that, it’s really just speculation..

And we're not the only people to express doubts on this, either. Even sites like 911review are calling the letter a hoax ( http://911review.com/errors/wtc/forbes.html ).

http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc_power_down.html

Once again, great stuff, Toro.
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
10,506
33
48
The Evil Empire
I'm sorry Toro but you are using too much Logic for Logic 7 to absorb.

You post neocon lies to promote your agenda, do you have stocks in Iraqi oil Toro? Hmmmm? I bet you do.


:p
 

thomaska

Council Member
May 24, 2006
1,509
37
48
Great Satan
Re: RE: Fury as academics claim 9/11 was 'inside job

Logic 7 said:
thomaska said:
Yes of course, there you go. THIS proves it. :roll:

What do you think would be more Logical, to have the power off during the week when everyone is trying to work, or cut it when there is minimal impact on the workforce?

Most financial institutions or offices, and certainly any prosperous enough to have office space in the WTC are going to have independent power supply for things like security systems and locks, if only battery backup.

Try again...

Nice try, but the problem is, it was the only power down ever done in the world trade center.

-Great Northeast Blackout of 1965, course the towers werent around so this doesnt count I suppose, was probably just a test run by the then 19 year old George W Bush...

-July 13-14th, 1977 Blackout in all of NYC..maybe they planted the explosives then...

-February, 1993 in the First attack on the Towers by Bush, the power went out, maybe the Mossad and CIA planted the explosives then...

I'm sure there have been others but this is just three of the outages that could all contend to be the ONLY power outage in history of WTC.


Your facts are lacking,Logic
 

Logic 7

Council Member
Jul 17, 2006
1,382
9
38
Toro said:
When you pick through the conspiracists' theories, they all begin to fall apart.

As you'd expect.

The story...

On the weekend of 9/8,9/9 there was a 'power down' condition in WTC tower 2, the south tower. This power down condition meant there was no electrical supply for approx 36hrs from floor 50 up. I am aware of this situation since I work in IT and had to work with many others that weekend to ensure that all systems were cleanly shutdown beforehand ... and then brought back up afterwards. The reason given by the WTC for the power down was that cabling in the tower was being upgraded ... Of course without power there were no security cameras, no security locks on doors and many, many 'engineers' coming in and out of the tower.
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/forbes01.htm

Did this provide an opportunity for explosives to be planted?

Our take...

There are problems with this account.

#1, it's sourced by one person only, Scott Forbes, and corroboration seems limited. In an interview he said, for instance:

SF: Many, many people have talked to me about the power down and one person was contacted by a journalist as a backup source for my information.
http://killtown.blogspot.com/2005/12/scott-forbes-interview.html

But why only one? And where is this backup? The WTC held the offices of many large, important companies, and to have their central computers turned off would have been extremely inconvenient. To put it mildly. Thousands of people would have known about this, from local employees to staff in other parts of the company. So where are they?

l




Nothing in what you just brought proved anything at all, it only brings questions, nice try.
 

Logic 7

Council Member
Jul 17, 2006
1,382
9
38
Re: RE: Fury as academics claim 9/11 was 'inside job

thomaska said:
-Great Northeast Blackout of 1965, course the towers werent around so this doesnt count I suppose, was probably just a test run by the then 19 year old George W Bush...

-July 13-14th, 1977 Blackout in all of NYC..maybe they planted the explosives then...

-February, 1993 in the First attack on the Towers by Bush, the power went out, maybe the Mossad and CIA planted the explosives then...

I'm sure there have been others but this is just three of the outages that could all contend to be the ONLY power outage in history of WTC.


Your facts are lacking,Logic


Blackout has nothing to do with deliberate power down, again nice try.