Fiscal Imbalance

[mrmom2]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Hank C Cheyenne]

..first of all let me say I agree...Ontario is the heart of Canada's manufacturing and retail sector and with a population of over 12 million....stands alone... period.

....I believe the GDP of this monster province is somewhere around $500 Billion which is probably around 40% of total Canadian GDP......in one province....it accounts for around 75% of all Canadian manufacturing exports......not to mention the "dubbed" Quebec City Windsor Corridor...

..I have been to southern Ontario a few times and always am surprised by the sheer size of it.....it's built up suburbs and city's endlessly...it's almost like a mini New York..... and Toronto as a city has the most corporate headquarters of any Canadian city...it's the center of the Canadian universe...

...I talk to many American's who have visited Ontario and they are surprised of the sheer size.....they think that all of Canada is the same...although they don't know that once you get to northern Ontario and the Manitoba border it is like complete isolation...

....but let me say that outside the Quebec City- Windsor corridor Alberta is the next powerhouse.....now some will say that BC with a larger population is the powerhouse.....but it is a fact that Alberta has a larger GDP ....BC's GDP is around $145 Billion while Alberta's is $175 billion....

......yes Alberta owes alot of it's wealth to is natural resources which is our most importiant industry.....but Calgary is actually second only to Toronto in corporate head offices.....and there is an emphasis on diversifying the economy here......simply put Alberta is a business oriented province and it's wealth is in good hands.....Alberta's population is currently estimated around 3,260,000, and has the fastest population growth rate of any province, the rate is 1.62%....it also has the fastest growing economy of any province....

......the province is growing extremely fast.....driving between Edmonton Calgary on highway 2 you get the feeling that the province is growing....there are more cars ever year...not to mention the infastructure and roads being build in Alberta.......every year it different and it's exciting times.....new skyscrapers....no debt...ect....especially when compared to cities like Winnipeg which have very low population growth and look the same year after year..... Manitoba has a population of around 1.2 million and a miniscule GDP of around 38 billion...actually Sask with a population just under 1 million actually has a GDP of around $37 billion... not bad when compared against Manitoba...albeit at least Manitoba is growing in population....very very very very slowly though...Sask seems to be in population decline in the last decade or so......

....but I hear some good things out of Saskatoon...and it economy....

 

[S-Ranger]

Sounds like S-Ranger ( wonder what the S stands for) is getting a little upset. Turns out that he doesn't even like that Oscar-winning rabbit, Bugs Bunny.

ATTN: handle "Reverend Blair" software developers:

"What handle was Bugs Bunny referring to in this forum and thread [quite childish name-calling/inciting], if any?"

The symbol "?" means that a question precedes. A search of the Warner Brothers database will not provide the answer.

I guess I gave it too much credit assuming it was so bad that Microsoft had to produce it. Now it looks like a typically botched NDP project.

Go back to your cutting and pasting, S-Ranger (still wondering what the S stands for).

It stands for 978289.5421837. Just trying to get the software to lock up and stop spitting out ridiculous, meaningless gibberish; usually within 10 minutes of any post in any forum, 24/7.

Pretend that all that matters is money. Ignore history and politics and continue your one-man golden horseshoe separatist movement. Deny being just like the worst of Albertans while doing it. Careful you don't get an aneurism though.

ATTN: handle "Reverend Blair" software, uh, kids:

Your software has already had several aneurisms.

Changes to Terms of Service
Posted by: Andem
Post date: April 25th, 2005

The site has recently undergone a flux of fighting, mudslinging, argueing and unnecessarily rude debating.

As of right now, any user joining these forums with the intent to get attention; to bash members based on their political views; purposely post to incite anger; post racist, sexist, prejudice, bigotry or homophobic messages; bash members for any reason; or posting without the sole intent of creating a clean and on-topic political debate ...


WILL BE BANNED WITHOUT NOTICE.


This goes the same with anybody [presumably buggy computer software as well] purposely trying to provoke members [and then pointing out that s/he/it thinks that s/he/it has succeeded on top of that.]

This is not the the "Canadian" history or politics forum. It is the Ontario forum.

This topic, "Fiscal Imbalance" in the Ontario forum is not about Canadian politics or history or anything but money and sanity around it to accomplish something for once, other than as documented with regard to the Ontario fiscal imbalance, which is a polite term that means this. Perhaps I can get another "too many keywords to process" error and the software will spit something out from Mickey Mouse:

Ontario—a key engine of Canada’s economy and a cornerstone of the nation’s fiscal framework—is struggling. The province is shouldering an increasingly heavy load when it comes to supporting other regions and filling Ottawa’s coffers. With Ontario stretched to its financial limits, and the federal government still comfortably in the black, some are asking whether Ottawa is killing its golden goose.

The federal government has long taken relatively more out of Ontario to support [not improve] less well-off provinces. Implicit inter-regional transfers are an integral feature of Canada’s federal system, and the notion of “rich” provinces lending a hand to the less well-off is not the issue. Today’s debate instead centres on the scale of this burden on Ontario. Ontario’s $23 Billion “Gap”

The federal government can trumpet recent investments [no, blind handouts/politicking as usual as always that haven't accomplished anything in the last 100 years but harm and won't accomplish anything over the next 5 years; we don't have another 100 years] in some Canadian provinces, but it’s the tidal wave of money heading the other way, and the resulting “gap” that garners headlines in Ontario. [And certainly not from me, Blair buggy software, Witch Project, whatever it is.]

Far from an obscure accounting concept, Ontario’s “gap” is simply the difference between what the federal government collects in the province (largely income taxes, EI premiums, GST on provincial spending and other indirect taxes) and what it gives back (via direct spending, transfers to persons [EI, Ontarians pay out the same but get the least in the Canadas, and CPP is a direct transfer to persons], businesses and lower-level governments, plus a portion of interest on the national debt [and, as others and all three parties of the Ontario government work it out, Ontario's share of the ridiculous "surpluses" the confederates have run up on the backs of Ontarians; and Quebeckers and Albertans and British Columbians. If the confederates want to pay $22 billion/year down on the federal debt, which they have not done, $7 billion/year is the average debt reduction from fiscal 1997-98, the end of the "deficit era" through 2003-04 while "surpluses" over the same period have totaled a bare minimum of $65 billion, then it goes in the budget and they pass the budget at least pretending that we have a "democracy." If they wanted $22 billion/year, the average stolen from Ontario since the confederate deficit was paid off, fiscal years 1997-98 through 2003-04, for some contingency reserve/slush fund, then it goes in the budget and the "Government/Executive branch" (party in power) passes/rams the budget down our throats via "the Commons" or "legislature", at least pretending that we have a "democracy." Anything that is not budgeted for does not belong to the federal government (or a provincial government that screws up a budget and ends up with "surplus taxes"; it's our money and it's not up to them to dictate what they will do with our surplus tax money). It can be, but they must consult with the Ontario, Quebec, Alberta and British Columbia governments at minumum to find out what to do with our revenues -- or they will get their budgets under control and cut federal taxes or we will squash them like bugs, with no choice in the matter. "Surplus" is nothing but overtaxation, usually accidental but it's quite a pattern around the current confederates and it's not $1 billion here, $500 million there but at least $65 billion over the last 8 years; which is explained in charts and words but the charts are not removable from the PDF]).

Focusing purely on federal receipts and disbursements, this measure controls for self-inflicted provincial fiscal pressure from either spending hikes or tax cuts [within Ontario or any other jurisdiction, smearing runny, smelly sh.t all over anyone trying to claim that the fiscal imbalance is due to whatever provincial government policy because it has nothing to do with that; federal receipts are federal receipts, federal disbursements to each jurisdiction, per capita, are federal disbursements and if "equalized" then everything is supposed to be relatively equal to pay for healthcare, education, social servies, infrastructure, etc. -- but that is a big fat lie, which is what the fiscal imbalance is and is what it proves].

The bottom line is that Ottawa runs a huge operating surplus in Ontario [which is called an operating deficit in Ontario], with today’s gap, at $23 billion, ten times what it was a decade ago (Chart 1). Its sheer magnitude weighs on an already burdened economy, taxing the Ontario government’s ability to invest in a
strong, vibrant provincial (and hence national) economy.

Federal-Provincial Imbalance

At its root, Ontario’s gap is a byproduct of a federal-provincial fiscal imbalance. A decade ago, still in the midst of a deficit era, the federal government borrowed to make up the shortfall between what it netted from the rich provinces and what it gave to poorer regions. But responsibility for financing interregional distributions now falls squarely on the rich provinces, with Ottawa applying any excess cash to its own debt paydowns. [Mostly "surpluses" that just magically disappear -- to anywhere/everywhere but Ontario and Alberta.]

According to Statistics Canada’s Provincial Economic Accounts, the combined federal surplus in Ontario, Alberta and BC had ballooned to $30 billion by 2002 (the latest figures available).

After net investments in [harmful handouts to, based on politics not intelligence/trying to improve anything] the remaining provinces and territories, $7 billion flowed through to Ottawa’s bottom line surplus (Chart 2), following even larger surpluses in 2000-2001 (averaging $14 billion [half of the average debt repayment over the same period of time]).

Net federal withdrawals from Ontario alone have averaged $22 billion in the eight years since Ottawa restored black ink to its books. Thus, federal surpluses and associated debt reduction—a hallmark of today’s federal government, likely totaling $65 billion by the time the dust settles on 2004/05—were built largely on the back of Ontario (Chart 3).

Had the federal government instead set aside only its $3 billion annual contingency reserve for debt reduction, the federal debt-to-GDP ratio would still have fallen to 42%—miles from the 68% peak and very close to today’s actual ratio of 39%. But that course of action would have left an aggregate $40 billion in the provinces since 1997/98 [Heaven forefend :roll:].

Ontario’s share of those extra funds could have gone to any number of priorities: households confronting high energy prices, sluggish wages and record debt levels; businesses saddled with a currency-induced erosion in competitiveness; or a provincial government facing a hefty budgetary shortfall and spiraling health costs. [Or all of the above in proper measure to improve economic growth, which produces more revenues/federal receipts for, maybe some plan of some sort with brains behind it in/for "have not" jurisdictions to actually improve their economies. The U.S. is doing a better job, with no transfers, of reducing economic disparities between states and Ireland is another example but just about everything is a better example compared to this mess over the last 50 years.]

On the Outside Looking In

In slaying a chronic deficit, the federal government asked [the IMF ordered the confederates to cut transfers to] all provinces to get by with relatively less. Although the fiscal gap between Ontario and the rest of Canada has held relatively steady [much higher above all other provinces combined, as Chart 4 shows; but the charts are not removable from the PDF], the difference is that most other provinces still get back more than they hand over (Chart 4).

The federal government affords Alberta treatment similar to that of Ontario. As a share of GDP or in per capita terms, Ottawa’s operating surplus in Alberta [Alberta's confederate operating deficit] actually exceeds that of Ontario. [Per capita; Alberta doesn't have the population of the GTA, by 2 million fewer people.] As rich, “have” provinces, both find themselves on the outside looking in when it comes to some fiscal transfers. But comparisons end there.

Breakneck energy development and rock-solid domestic demand have given Alberta a significant economic edge over Ontario, one that should extend at least through 2006 (see our latest issue of Provincial Forecast, “Growth on an Uneven Footing”). Alberta’s government is debt free and enormous energy royalties provide unparalleled fiscal latitude going forward. Indeed, conservative energy price forecasts mean the provincial government is likely to enjoy multi-billion dollar revenue “surprises” in 2005/06 and beyond. So insulated is it fiscally, that Ottawa’s policies (while closely watched) leave much less of a mark on Alberta's provincial finances (Chart 5).

Ontario, meanwhile, looks to have missed out on the notable fiscal improvement enjoyed elsewhere in 2004/05. Newfoundland & Labrador and PEI slashed deficits, BC and New Brunswick moved into the black, while Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta enlarged existing surpluses. Ontario’s latest projections pointed to a $5 billion deficit for 2004/05 (before setting $1 billion aside for contingencies), little changed from the prior year’s sizeable shortfall. The bond market has taken notice. Since the start of fiscal 2003, every province has seen its spread vs Ontario improve. Two years ago, only Alberta 10-years traded through Ontario. Today, five other provinces are through or effectively flat to that key provincial credit (Chart 6).

For most, enhanced 2004/05 budgetary results capture efforts by Ottawa to address the vertical fiscal imbalance. Roughly $75 billion (over 10 years) was granted to the provinces under new health and equalization agreements last year. That was subsequently augmented by accords with Newfoundland & Labrador and Nova Scotia, allowing both to retain 100% of their offshore energy revenue without [any deductions to] equalization [welfare handouts that Ontarians pay for the bulk of; for another ten years when it accomplished nothing over the last 10 years because it's all politicking: there are no brains behind any of it, just political lies].

The resulting 33% spike in federal transfers to lower levels of government in 2004/05 marks the largest percentage increase in more than thirty years. Adding 4%-plus average annual growth in the coming five years, however, still leaves transfers as a share of GDP about a point shy of where they routinely ran prior to the cuts that formed a central plank of Ottawa’s deficit reduction strategy.

Although Ontario receives a full, per capita share of the new health money, like Alberta, it has no claim on the $33 billion equalization top-up. As a result, Ontario’s slice of all the new money unveiled last fall is barely 20%—about half of its population share. [20% share for 40% of the population; ya, that's equal and fair; out of our own money. :roll:]

Based on today’s population, Ontario and Alberta will receive a cumulative $1,300 per person [it's how to "equalize" given that the City of Toronto's irrelevant, due to millions of commuters who pay no residential property taxes, all the City of Toronto has to pay for everything with, and what's left of residential property taxes that the "Ontario" feds don't steal, all four provinces of the Atlantic Canadas don't even have the resident population of the City of Toronto: nor do Saskatchewan and Manitoba combined], under the new health/equalization deals, while the weighted average for the remaining provinces stands at $3,300 per person (Chart 7).

[NOW. For anyone who has a clue what transfer payments are supposed to be for, the Canada Health Transfer (CHT), which has the Health Reform Transfer (HRT) merged into it, is supposed to "equalize" the expenses of healthcare across every province and territory -- per person. But there are no standards and there is no measurement system.

How much does a flu shot cost in the 16-25 age group, per person, as the national average? THE CHT DOESN'T KNOW OR CARE. It's blind. What's the national average percentage of persons in the 16-25 age group who get flu shots? THE CHT DOESN'T KNOW OR CARE.

Just one simple example issue and you need the national average to know which jurisdiction's flu shots in that age group cost the most in, to figure out why. If the national average per flu shot cost, in total, all administraton (and every Department/"Ministry" of Health knows but the CHT doesn't bother with that) costs, is $52 and it's relatively flat across all jurisdictions, but it's $75 in one jurisdiction and $82 in another jurisdiction -- and the percentage of people getting flu shots across all age ranges in those jurisdictions is 30% higher than in every other jurisdiction then why is that? And how could the blind CHT possibly "equalize" it when all it cares about is revenues per capita?

Healthcare taxes were raised in Ontario in 2003 by the McGuinty Liberal Liars (politicians, what else is new) and physiotherapy, chiropractic and eyecare was de-listed from OHIP while other jurisdictions could be covering shaves and haircuts -- because the confederates don't know or care, they're provincial/territorial programs, not federal, but the confederates claim that the CHT "equalizes" expenses when it doesn't have the faintest clue in the world what the expenses of anything are and with no standards, what is covered and not by public health insurance because it's provincial/territorial jurisdiction -- not theirs.

We can and do measure it all. Lots of things do, but not the confederates and not the blind CHT that claims to "equalize costs" per person and cannot possibly make that claim.

The Canada Social Transfer (CST), formerly one transfer and the largest transfer and every jurisdiction got the CHST (Canada Health and Social Transfer (CHST)), split into the CHT/CST in 2004, and every jurisdiction gets the CHT/CST. It's the money Ontario and Alberta are getting back because neither have any claim to the "equalization" transfer.

Ontario has the lowest number of General Practioners/Family Physicians and specialists and Registered Nurses per 10,000 people in all of the Canadas and is well below the national average in hospital beds per 10,000 people -- due to the fact that few Canadians even know what transfers are, or how they claim to work but clearly do not: because the "transfer system" is brainless and blind. It knows nothing and cannot possibly "equalize" anything as a result.

The Canada Social Transfer (CST) is supposed to "equalize" whatever the hell "social services" happens to mean, as around healthcare, provincial/territrial jurisdiction/programs and the CST has no clue or care what any of them are. Just revenues per capita "for whatever the hell social services happens to mean per province/territory."

Welfare (workfare in Ontario) is a common social service, every jurisdiction has it, but what's the national average in entitlements per single person, per married couple, per whatever per kid? WHO CARES, the confederates don't measure it and the CST has no clue.

What is the national average in administration costs per type of welfare coverage per person? WHO CARES, the confederates don't measure it and the CHT has no clue. Or care.

So with this non-knowledge of anything (by the confederates/CST), which jurisdiction pays out the most in welfare entitlements, per single person, per married couple (or however the jurisdiction works it out) and per kid? Which pays out the least and how far above the national average is "the most" and how far below the national average is "the least?" With no national standards around one common social service, welfare (workfare in Ontario) there is no way to even measure it in any coherent manner.

But the CST claims to "equalize" expenses across all provinces and territories, per person, without even defining what "social services" means.

"Social Services" could cover shaves and haircuts in Nunuvat, so it's "social services" department(s) would have higher expenses, to bitch to the confederates that "they don't have enough money" -- and as per usual around this bulls..t political game, the Nunavat government will get extra, without a care in the world that no other jurisdiction is covering shaves and haircuts or whatever the hell "social services" happens to mean. It's a sick joke to even claim that it "equalizes."

The CST also claims to "equalize" post-secondary education expenses but with the lowest per capita revenues in the Canadas, Ontario has the lowest student:faculty ratio in the Canadas, the highest tuitions in the Canadas and the highest loan burden and lowest grant offset in the Canadas, per student.

If the thing is going to claim to "equalize" social services then perhaps it should define what they are: and federal standards would have to be enforced across all jurisdictions to equalize what social services is and what it pays out and costs; the salaries of all social workers and everyone else involved, across the Canadas would have to be standardized and dictated federally.

Student:faculty ratios would have to be standardized and enforced by the confederates, what faculty are paid, what everyone around post-secondary schools is paid (janitors, contractors, clerks), how many post-secondary schools there can be per student (which would close post-secondary schools everywhere in the Canadas because Ontario has the lowest/worst everything per student; or raise Ontario up to the national standard and please get it through your heads in the Atlantic Canadas that you do not even have the resident population of the City of Toronto in all four provinces and even fewer people in Saskatchewan and Manitoba combined; tons of crap in the Atlantic Canadas, Manitoba and Saskatchewan (not even 1 million people in the whole province when we get that many commuters in the City of Toronto a day and plenty of them are students -- there were 10,706,513 people, 93% of Ontario's population in South Ontario in the 2001 Census and it matters quite a lot due to this confederate "per person" crap around every transfer that claims to "equalize" and they all do, but it's a big fat lie -- which is what the Ontario fiscal gap/imbalance proves) would be closed down, hospitals, every single public health insurance plan has to cover the exact same, charge the exact same, all GP/FP/RNs and specialists have to be paid the exact same per everything across the board and the exact same number of hospital beds per capita would be enforced -- which would remove hospital beds, GP/FP/RNs and specialists from every jurisdiction in the Canadas or add more to Ontario.

Or stop the bullshit claim that the CHT or CST "equalize" anything. Or better yet, dump it all and come up with a system that actually works and one transfer that is simple and easy to understand, which is what is going to happen and not because I say so but because the confederates cannot withstand an onslaught from Ontario and survive, and as soon as Quebec, Alberta and B.C. catch a hint of South Ontario throwing its hands in the air at the confederates they'll have a lot more to worry about than "just" Ontario.

But then, along comes the "equalization" transfer, which is nothing but welfare. Explanations of it that are one page and don't go into any details, like on the Finance Canada website, makes it look quite simple. (The territories have another "formula" for equalization.)

"National provincial revenues per capita" is a line across a bar chart and a specific number/dollar amount. Any jurisdiction with revenues over the line doesn't get equalization (other than Alberta, B.C. and Saskatchewan for many years; because the rules/lies sound good but they're not followed; no lie is). Any provincial government (Dept. of Finance) that falls below the line gets a transfer from the confederate Dept. of Finance ("Finance Canada") to get it up to the line -- which is nothing but welfare, it operates on the same principle and has never pretended to be some investment program to improve economies.

It is not an investment program, it is simply supposed to top up the revenues of any provincial Dept. of Finance that doesn't get the average "national provincial revenues per capita" up to the national average.

But it totally ignores all other transfers, it doesn't take into account that the CHT/CST are already (supposedly) "equalized" so it double-equalizes. As in revenues received from all federal disbursements period should be, but are not counted as the province's "revenues per capita" before "equalization" is applied; which is upside-down, "equalization" is supposed to be the very last resort, a welfare transfer to top up the revenues of a provincial Dept. of Finance that does not have (in total, another lie) the "national average provincial revenues per capita" -- which is another lie. Only 5 provinces make up this "national average" (Quebec, Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, B.C., "middle-income" provinces leaving out Alberta at the high end, per capita due to no capita to speak of, and leaving out the Atlantic Canadas at the low end) and only 33 sources of provincial revenues in those 5 provinces are counted in this "national average provincial revenues per capita" lie.

But the Atlantic Canadas want Alberta's oil/gas royalties to be added to the formula without counting their own; and 70% of the 100% of all revenues every provincial Dept. of Finance makes from natural resources are supposed to be deducted from the equalization welfare handout, but NL and NS had 10 years of 0% being deducted and just got another 10 years of 0% being deducted; but not Saskatchewan. Can you say mess?

ONE TRANSFER is all we need. Real provincial revenues per capita in all 10 provinces, 100% of all revenues are counted in every province, divided by the population of the province and you get "revenues per capita" (per person) for each province. Add the 10 numbers together then divide by 10 to get the real average.

Then 100% of all provincial revenues with no exceptions, ever, with all federal disbursements included (and that includes subsidies from the "Canadian" Wheat Board that only subsidizes farmers in the prairies, so their web page claims and it's a sorry sight, $4-$6 billion in revenues per year but $6 billion in federal grants per year, so at the very best it breaks even, without including the real subsidies; RCMP law enforcement is federal, it's a subsidy that Ontario and Quebec don't get, CBC TV/radio stations have to be accounted for, they make money selling ad space, how I don't know but they do, they have to run it like a public corporation, it's not difficult to find their assets/liabilities and where; they make money in South Ontario, more than enough to cover North Ontario and the surplus has to be deducted from Ontario's federal disbursements, ditto in Montreal region, it more than pays for itself to cover Quebec, because it has real markets, ditto with the Lower Mainland-south Vancouver Island and the Calgary-Edmonton Corridor -- deductions from federal disbursements for Ontario, Quebec, B.C. and Alberta, additions to federal disbursements everywhere else due to no markets to speak of -- all real provincial revenues period and then any provincial Dept. of Finance that falls below the real national provincial average gets its revenues topped up with one transfer called what it is: equalization.

No exceptions, no deals, if the confederates (or if they lose it, try to dictate to the Windsor-Quebec City Corridor, Lower Mainland-south Vancouver Island, Calgary-Edmonton Corridor, "Ontario, Quebec, B.C. and Alberta" -- the only jurisdictions that pay anything into this "federation" -- we own their asses, we'll have to dump them, which is likely and will be a good thing not a bad thing, unless you like elected dictatorships and far worse than communism), with agreements from Ontario, Quebec, Alberta and B.C. (Saskatchewan soon enough will be paying something into the "federation" for the first time ever) could come up with a proper investment program that actually works, has eyes, ears, brains and is out to improve other economies instead of keeping them down, which is all the current mess does and has ever done -- with ample proof of that.

Now that per person is out of the way around federal disbursements, and those who bothered to read the above have some clue how the "transfer system" doesn't and can't work -- there's much more, it gets a lot worse but the above is enough to get somewhat clued in...]

Further, having established an elevated floor for equalization (at what amounts to record levels and building in an annual escalator [3.5% guaranteed increases to everything on the "equalization" transfer, which inlcudes everything but Ontario and Alberta, anyone can check it at Finance Canada, I've already posted the link in this thread, more than once, while Ontario's economy, so revenues/federal receipts, are not guaranteed to grow by 2% next year let alone every year at 3.5% for the next ten years to pay for it; and not to put down Alberta at all but it pays out about a billion dollars less in the only revenues/federal receipts that matter, never to be seen again, than the City of Toronto alone pays out, never to be seen again. Alberta's economy is good for its population but B.C. generates more revenues and Quebec generates about double what B.C. does and Ontario about double again and they're the only jurisdictions paying anything into this "federation." When, not if, another economic downturn hits, where the confederates think the money is going to come from to pay for the "deals" they made to buy votes, nothing but politics it has nothing to do with improving other economies and ditto at the provincial level in the "have not" jurisdictions, it's a big fat lie: not that money transfers should take place but ones that work, have some brains behind them, and can actually pay for themselves, are quite necessary], the link between regional economic performance and the scope of equalization transfers has been severed.

An erosion in Ontario’s relative fiscal capacity will no longer temper equalization outlays to the “have nots”. [This has never been the case before. The 2004 "equalization" renewal, and the side-deals with NL and NS, has the whole mess totally disconnected from anything's ability to PAY for any of it.] Instead, receiving provinces can bank on an equalization pie that is slated to grow going forward [and good luck paying for that insanity: and marcarc, I have lots for you to read; or not, but it may help out. You are being suckered by politicians and the Atlantic Canadas will always be down as long as, not transfers, but the existing mess that is blind and does nothing but advance the "careers" of lying politicians. There are much more intelligent ways to get Atlantic Canada on its feet and as strong as hell and ditto for Manitoba].

The side deals on offshore energy, while a boon for Newfoundland & Labrador and Nova Scotia, implicitly raise equalization payments above the level they otherwise would have been. Not surprisingly, other provinces are demanding that they too see additional federal support. Ontario has requested an immediate $5 billion payment and there are calls from other corners for related side deals.

[And the confederates wouldn't even meet with Ontario's Premier to discuss anything. The confederates not only let the NL Dept. of Finance keep 100% of our offshore royalties with 0% being applied against "equalization" welfare handouts paid for almost entirely by Ontarians, for another ten years when the last 10 years accomplished worse than nothing, as researched and documented by the Atlantic Institute for Market Research, but handed it $2 billion on top of that, for no apparent reason. $2 billion in NL is $3,868 per person. The same in Ontario totals $47,934,963,600, the same $3,868 per capita (person, same thing) would cost $47.9 billion. $5 billion only amounts to $403 per person in Ontario.]

Where We’re Headed

In the end, today’s political reality could force the federal government to address the province’s fiscal challenges. Ontario, as always, will play a vital role in determining the outcome of the next federal election—with an election call increasingly likely this spring, as mounting fallout from the Gomery inquiry emboldens the opposition.

Ontario has been a vital base of support for the Liberals in past elections (Chart 8 ). More than half the party’s Parliamentary bench strength is derived from the province, where they currently hold 74 of 106 seats. A pledge to address Ontario’s gap could shore up Liberal chances in this key battleground. Still, as we've seen with the 2005 federal budget, the minority government remains at the mercy of other parties when it comes to ultimately delivering on its promises.

The Conservative party, for its part, has struck a sympathetic stance on the province’s funding request, but Ontario would do well to await arrival of a Government of Canada cheque before earmarking newfound pledges of support to its various priorities.

For the time being, the province will keep up its PR efforts, keen on attracting ever more attention to its fiscal plight.

Note: As of mid-April, Ontario, Québec and Nova Scotia (accounting for roughly 80% of provincial direct & guaranteed bond/MTN issuance in 2004/05) had yet to release their 2005 budgets. A new issue of Canadian Financing Quarterly will be issued following completion of the provincial budget season, highlighting borrowing developments to watch for this fiscal year.

Source: Canadian Financing Quarterly, CIBC World Markets
Killing the Golden Goose?
Warren Lovely, April 15, 2005
PDF http://research.cibcwm.com/economic_public/download/cfqapr05.pdf

The document was published April 15, 2005, but a confederate election is guaranteed and the longer they put it off, the more guns are brought to bear on them; all of them, the whole mess is hopelessly broken according to Quebec's "one-man separation" and plenty in B.C. and Alberta and plenty in Ontario, where "separation" isn't any issue, we can't very well separate from ourselves, but it's a no-brainer to agree with Quebec that the insult to the words "structures" and "systems" are hopelessly broken. Ontario will certainly negotiate with Quebec, B.C. and Alberta or perhaps vice-versa; all it takes is for South Ontario to throw its hands in the air, and it will "embolden" Quebec, Alberta and B.C. Not "against Canada" around here, but against the hopeless structures/systems and the Ontario Chamber of Commerce of not to be trifled with (nor is every chartered bank in the Candas or just the "Acknowledgments" from the OCC that helped out with its Phase 1 report and there is plenty more).

They represent every business in Ontario that means anything, on the Executive side not the labor end but the labour unions are fed up as well. There is nothing left that isn't involved and not "just" in Ontario. And success does not take lectures from failure. It is the Windsor-Quebec City Corridor, Lower Mainland-South Vancouver Island and Calgary-Edmonton Corridor as someone else pointed out.

Bridging the Innovation Gap: Count Cities In, by the Federation of Canadian Municipalities (FCM) PDF http://www.fcm.ca/newfcm/Java/gap.pdf is an interesting read that doesn't even bother with the Windsor Quebec City Corridor; just the [Greater] Golden Horseshoe - Montreal Region because that's really what makes up the bulk of bulk of "Ontario" and "Quebec" economies.

I have just never seen a single Albertan online, anywhere anytime, who didn't just do what the buggy Blair software does, NDP propaganda and actually believing it, but Klein/Harper propaganda, spitting venom at everything and particularly, well it's all over this site, "those commies huddled around Lake Ontario" and such and this is one of the most sane sites I've ever seen around politics, "us versus them" the "Western Canada" myth (politically<->economically<->socio-economically it is no more a singularity than, well far less so in the "Ontario" and "Quebec" things, let alone between them, but with some myth that some conspiracy is going on, propagated by David Kilgour and others, between Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal. We "conspire" ourselves, in Toronto for certain, out of $11 billion/year, last year alone, by the Ontario and confederate feds; but there are a lot of people here and a lot of newcomers show up all the time, which makes marketing (the truth, facts) quite a lot more difficult than in provinces with populations lower than Toronto's, which is all of them other than the rest of the Windsor-Quebec City Corridor).

But I have just seen a sane, rational Albertan in this forum. I know that there are plenty of them, have met plenty of them in the real world, but never online. It's a first, so Alberta, the Calgary-Edmonton Corridor is Alberta (the Winnipeg CMA is Manitoba, with 60% of the population and it's the only thing in Manitoba that makes any money; but it only has the population of a city-surburb attached to the City of Toronto's west end) and even Layton has a document out about the bulk of the population of the Canadas being in a few cities generating most of the wealth, so that's what has to be focused on.

It's a no-brainer but it won't/can't happen overnight and we can't create classic peasants out of everyone who doesn't happen to live in the few cities in this "federation" that generate all of the money (Marx wrote about it due to the industrial era, "the isolation of rural life" not mistranslation, "the idiocy of rural life" and without doing something to subsidize what we need in the cities that can't feed themselves, we import other natural resources from all over the world now, to avoid turning rural everything into classic peasants was relevant when Marx wrote about it and the information era was supposed to make cities irrelevant but didn't, it made them even more important, right back to what to do about rural folk we do need and the ones we don't need).

And, um, we shouldn't kill the cities and that's what's happening. Profits of things like banks or whatever else in South Ontario have nothing to do with the revenues that don't stay in the hopefully contained "Golden" (quite rusty; public infrastructure, it takes public revenues to pay for that; businesses and citizens just use it) Horseshoe instead of expanding it out with this "Greater" Golden Horseshoe thing.

But if the quite buggy Blair Witch Project software will excuse me, my wife has had children roasting in the oven and it's time to eat. Eeeeeeeeeevil, to the core as everyone in Toronto is. What else do we do besides eating children "and such" ... I'm sure the software will tell "me." But it can't find the pm button to do it with.

 

[Reverend Blair]

What's up, Doc?

 

[MMMike]

S-Ranger, don't you see its only fair that the Feds treat Ontario unfairly? If provinces like New Brunswick or Manitoba are doomed to be economic basketcases, we have to ensure that Ontario go down with them. It's called "Equality"! If you don't like it you can move down to the US you ruthless neocon!

 

[missile]

"Got any spare change,mister?' :lol:

 

[Reverend Blair]

Aren't these guys hilarious, Missile? They whine about having to pay for us, but continually undermine attempts for us to become have provinces. East-west grid for electricity? They hate that idea. Alternative fuels like hydrogen? "Damned Kyoto-loving tree-huggers," they respond. Keep all of the banking and industry in Ontario. Don't let the transportation industry base itself in the centre of the country. Do your best to feck up agriculture.

They love to bitch about having to give us money, they are too blatantly ignorant to recognise the non-monetary things that we bring to the table and refuse to see that much of the money they make comes from the rest of Canada, and they sure as hell don't want us to do any better than we are.

Drive down any street or walk into any shopping mall in any city in Canada. The money we spend goes back to the Golden Horseshit or the Alberta oilpatch, or down south where their American customers give it back to them. That's never taken into consideration though. Not by the neo-separatist fools who worship nothing but money and live on seething hate and jealousy.

 

[MMMike]

Re: RE: Fiscal Imbalance

Aren't these guys hilarious, Missile? They whine about having to pay for us, but continually undermine attempts for us to become have provinces. East-west grid for electricity? They hate that idea. Alternative fuels like hydrogen? "Damned Kyoto-loving tree-huggers," they respond. Keep all of the banking and industry in Ontario. Don't let the transportation industry base itself in the centre of the country. Do your best to feck up agriculture.

They love to bitch about having to give us money, they are too blatantly ignorant to recognise the non-monetary things that we bring to the table and refuse to see that much of the money they make comes from the rest of Canada, and they sure as hell don't want us to do any better than we are.

Drive down any street or walk into any shopping mall in any city in Canada. The money we spend goes back to the Golden Horseshit or the Alberta oilpatch, or down south where their American customers give it back to them. That's never taken into consideration though. Not by the neo-separatist fools who worship nothing but money and live on seething hate and jealousy.

Oh, I know you just love to dismiss legitimate complaints as "neocon ranting" and ignore reality - I expect nothing else. As far as your east-west power grid, you go right ahead and built your power lines wherever the feck you want to: east to Ontario, west to B.C., or north to fecking Nunavut. I don't care. Oh, I'm sorry, you probably wanted us to pay for that, too??

And thank you for the lessons of NDP economics: lets send bucket loads of money all over the country in the hopes that they might buy one of our products and get some of that money back?? Even if they buy something that somehow doesn't come from China, its actually built in Ontario, lets say 20% comes back to the company in profit, which is taxed so of that 20%, maybe 10% makes it back into Ontario government coffers. Its sounds great Rev. Tell you what - why don't you keep your hard earned dollars, or buy made in USA or China instead, we'll ship our manufacturing output down south, keep our own money in our own pockets and we'll call it even!!?? How does that sound instead? :tard:

 

[Reverend Blair]

Oh, I know you just love to dismiss legitimate complaints as "neocon ranting"

I never used the word neo-con once in there, MMMikey. Do you require reading glasses?

As far as your east-west power grid, you go right ahead and built your power lines wherever the feck you want to: east to Ontario, west to B.C., or north to fecking Nunavut. I don't care. Oh, I'm sorry, you probably wanted us to pay for that, too??

Why not? We paid for the fecking pipelines you send your oil and gas to the rest of the country with. Forgot about that, didn't you? You also forget that all of Canada, not just Ontario or Alberta, paid to get your oilsands up and working.

The point about the east-west grid, which you are obviously too fecking ignorant to understand, is that the Ontario government keeps saying yes, then changing back to no to Manitoban hydro-electricity. We aren't going to build a damned thing until they give us a solid agreement.

As for the rest, quit whining MMMikey. When you buy something at the mall, that money flees your province as quickly as it flees mine. That's why Alberta is an economic one-trick pony.

 

[marcarc]

It's absolutely absurd to say that Ontario is somehow being treated unfairly. If you are an accountant in Halifax making 80 grand you pay the exact same federal tax as an accountant making 80 grand in Kingston. The only reason Ontario pays more is because it HAS MORE PEOPLE. So NONE are being treated unfairly, that's a garbage argument. Again, go read the Chamber of Commerce's study, they do not even dispute that southern ontario is doing fine, and go reread the KPMG quotes that say Toronto has the most incentives of any of the studied cities, INCLUDING Detroit, Chicago, which are in the states where Southern Ontario competes. So there really is no issue there.

In Ontario Mike Harris ravaged the welfare and EI system, that was a political choice. It happened out east as well, but mostly by NECESSITY. Ontario has no problem paying first time principals in the school system $70,000 to start. McGuinty is breaking yet another promise and deregulating tuition, not because it's 'necessary', but because it's expedient. University administration spending has gone up 60% at universities in the past ten years. I've got news for you, with computer technology administration could almost literally be done away with completely. For money, my wife's boss was a dean of science, when he resigned that post, they 'made up' a 'vice president' position and tacked on 30 grand. He now makes over 100 grand. That is also a political choice.

In case the above text book writer has never heard of economics, an intro course would be helpful. Just because EI spending per unemployed person in PEI is greater than that spent in Ontario, doesn't mean that EACH unemployed person was paid that. Unemployment is far higher on the east coast, and there are far fewer people, hence the disparity. I've collected EI in both the maritimes and ontario, and in ontario not only could I collect longer but they paid for schooling. However, EI is divided into cities, not regions and it depends how there money is allocated. I was informed while living in Hamilton that they could pay for me and my technical schooling, however, right next door in Burlington I wouldn't have been able to collect a cent in EI.

But read some economic history, southern ontario didn't get to be how it is by accident, but by design. The Newfoundland Independant did their own study and found that the province would have been far better off if they had been independant and could control their own resources. The federal government took out far more than it ever paid into the province. As for EI and welfare, the feds put FAR more into southern ontario than the east coast, but they do it differently: namely, they do it by subsidizing employers and paying R&D costs, and throwing grant money at universities. PEI has ONE university, so sees little of that. In the maritimes it comes in the form of paying some of the health and education costs, that's it. Very little investment in infrastructure and almost none in economic development.

The amount the feds have just given Toyota is more than it gives to ACOA funding for three years. And it also benefits from increased insurance costs, which prop up still more investment in southern ontario. Insurance companies got in trouble with their investments-they don't even bother investing in southern ontario, but when trouble comes, every province except public insurance ones has skyrocketing premiums. And if a province dares mention public insurance, they get their american subsidiaries to threaten them with lawsuits under Nafta.

Of course southern ontario would be a basket case without the federation. There are no mines in southern ontario, there are no forests, there is no oil, there are barely any raw materials whatsoever. Southern ontario can't 'build' anything. So the federation makes sure they can get cheap materials for their plants, and even subsidizes the plants.

The economic union also made sure that the maritimes couldn't support their industries with legislation. They couldn't lock out or tax foreign banks and insurance companies, so now maritimers insurance costs go to southern ontario. Their telephone companies and media companies are all branch plants, even the CBC station in NB was privately owned unti the mid eighties.

And surprise surprise, when Martin's famous tax cuts kicked in, it was primarily high income earners who benefitted, and there are FAR more in Ontario than out east so of course they benefitted disproportionately.

As for 'welfare', and 'equalization', let's be clear here. New Brunswick gets 40% of it's budget from the federal government, so let's not pretend that if somehow the feds simply shut off the tap it would be anything other than what it would be-a third world region. Of course many in Ontario couldn't give a rat's ass, after all, it's southern ontarian insurance companies who finance most of the clearcutting in our forests, and subsidize their corporate buddies who rob natives of their land and resources. Ontarians never blink an eye over such things, let alone find them in their media, so why would they care if the maritimes were devastated.

In fact, this is exactly what the debate is about. A gutted government would be forced to sell off just about every industry it created and privatize others. This is when Ontario has always bought up industries and land at firesale prices in the maritimes.


You can write all the economic stats you want, colonizers always do, but in the end it doesn't come down to economics, it comes down to the fact that a region with 65% of the seats in the house can benefit disproportionately. And their 'pundits' still always complain that the people they stomped into the ground should have to dig their own grave.

 

[S-Ranger]

Re: RE: Fiscal Imbalance

S-Ranger, don't you see its only fair that the Feds treat Ontario unfairly? If provinces like New Brunswick or Manitoba are doomed to be economic basketcases, we have to ensure that Ontario go down with them. It's called "Equality"! If you don't like it you can move down to the US you ruthless neocon!

Greetings fellow ruthless neocon American. [If only...one day we will reach the true land of Jesus, the New Jerusalem. Actually the wings are quite good in Buffalo with our fellow neocon right-wing chicken eaters; never the left wings.] Nice to see you back, fellow neocon nutcase. "We" neocon nutcases have to stick together. [I wonder if anyone in the Canadas even knows what a neocon is? Probably not. Perhaps "we" should explain it ... "our" group meetings with Pat Robertson, "The Reverend" Jerry Falwell, KKK, Jesse Jackson (for fun; to demontrate our superiorness to), Pat Buchanan, well "naming names" and all isn't part of "our code". Henry Kissinger will be at "our" next meeting and Our Lord [behind the Bushes; probably taking a leak] Tom Flanagan. See you there, for the final eeeeeeevil plotting. It's all coming together for "us."]

Sorry I wasn't around (I didn't even know that this forum existed) when you started the thread. But not much documentation that was suitable for the general public was out at the time, back when you started the thread (even for NDPers, and they're, well the entire Ontario caucus, is solidly behind the facts and skids of documentation that, well, do what documentation tends to do: document the facts -- not the other way around (as if McGuinty could figure anything out) and actually the Rae NDP Lunatics started the "fiscal imbalance" campaign (of late) back in 1990-95 <shudders> when the "imbalance" was "only" $2 billion.

But now, NDP, Liberal, Conservative, it's impossible not to admit to the "fiscal imbalances" other than by every Dept. of Finance in the Canadas, and their auditors, all declaring fraud on all financial statements of public accounts, for the last several decades.

And you nailed everything. As in you stated the facts, but there wasn't much around to back it up with. Now it's pointless for anyone to even try to deny anything. Well the point is to prove that "these federation" is hopeless (as is), put in yet another diplomatic effort with everything behind it now. [It's a surprise.]

If every major bank, they tend to know how to add and subtract numbers, and know where to find them, the IRPP (Courchene in particular, the guru of fiscal federalism; no one has ever argued with him and gotten away with it; other than in their own deluded heads, much like with the boneheads from the elsewheres in the Ontario forum; reduced to ranting and raving and the all-important fiscal factor -- Bugs Bunny) Canada Conference Board, Ontario Medical Association, well the list is very long, you might remember the "Enough of Not Enough" (of our own taxes back) campaign by the Toronto Board of Trade back in 2003 -- over 470,000 individual letters, not a petition, were dumped on, by those who heard about it in Toronto via City Hall or any number of sources, every Toronto MP, Sorbara, McGuinty, Dennis Mills (MP, Don Valley-East, the Toronto "lieutenant", worthless as usual, Martin's eyes and ears for the City of Toronto and area at the time), Volpe, no need to say anymore about that creature, every Toronto MP and Martin.

Over 470,000 individual letters piled into their offices in about 2 months, with plenty of time to address it in the Ontario 2003-04 and/or confederate 2003-04 budget -- the one McGuinty broke the laws he swore to uphold around, raising taxes without a referendum, not just a broken campaign promise but agains the law (Taxpayer Protection and Balanced Budged Act passed by the Harris Conservatives; probably the best government this country has ever seen given the circumstances and with the bulls..t aside; but not many people in the Ontarios would agree today because they've been told to forget every reason they elected him for -- twice, so they do, and Toronto got nailed but by the Rae NDP Lunatics and confederates and "federation", not the Harris Conservatives); urinated, deficated, spat on and laughed at breaking the law -- and the contract with the Canadian Taxpayers Federation it (the McGuinty) signed and wove around with much fanfare, promising not to raise taxes, in writing, with the CTF. [Give a politician a piece of paper and think it means anything? The CTF has much to learn; but it started in the prairies so it's not surprising.]

Then they sued Sorbara (good riddance bonehead) and McGuinty who then decided to "amend" the Taxpayer Protection and Balanced Budget Act (deficit budget too along with raising taxes with no referendum -- an option, regardless of any laws they swore to uphold, that only real Liberals and worse, neo-commie/socialist NDP Lunatics would take) -- by repealing it to avoid having to pay the fines and take the pay cuts: as if we needed more proof that all the insults to the words "systems" and "structures" (political), in this mess accomplish are elected dictatorships: or worse as the confederates demonstrated wasting our time and money for a year, last season, not even getting a budget out without having to extend the "session" and seeing nothing but partisan political "party" representation and screw the people because the political "parties" are far more important. And they're at it again. Everyone wants ridiculous election circus act marketing "campaigns" and elections at Christmas. Freaks.

If the Ontario Chamber of Commerce and everything involved in its Phase 1 report and the rest and all three political "parties" in Ontario (for the first time ever) and everything else being on the same page (due to facts) weren't enough:

For Immediate Release
September 26, 2005

National Chamber network recognizes inequity in Confederation

CHARLOTTETOWN, Sept. 26 - A major step forward in restoring fairness to Confederation was taken at the Canadian Chamber of Commerce Annual General Meeting today in Charlottetown when delegates from across the nation voted to adopt a resolution titled, "Fiscal Imbalance".

The resolution, proposed by the Toronto Board of Trade and Hamilton Chamber of Commerce, and supported by the entire Ontario caucus, recommends that the federal government "as an urgent matter examine the nature and extent of the fiscal imbalance in the federation, and develop potential changes in federal provincial fiscal arrangements that might redress any inappropriate imbalance."

"We are very pleased that we now have a national body recognizing the fiscal imbalance between the federal government and the provinces," said Len Crispino, President and CEO of the Ontario Chamber of Commerce. "A strong Canada requires strong and vibrant provincial economies, but the current transfer system is failing both the receiving and the contributing provinces."

This resolution reinforces a recent study by the Ontario Chamber of Commerce titled, "Fairness in Confederation" which demonstrated the lack of sustainability in the current system. The second phase of the report, due to be released in late October [nope, not yet; on their web site anyway], will provide advice to government on restoring fairness to the system.

"Ontario is proud of its role in Confederation. However, to maintain Ontario's economic strength, and it's ability to help other provinces, we must have a system that responds to the fiscal realities that face the country," said Crispino.

Glen Grunwald, President and CEO of the Toronto Board of Trade agreed, "The fiscal imbalance between the provinces hurts each and every community in the country. Certainly Toronto has seen the effects in fewer medical professionals, lower grants to post-secondary students and crumbling infrastructure."

"We need a solution that helps us build stronger, more vibrant communities," said Brian Wilson, President of the Hamilton Chamber of Commerce. "Our goals should be to have a fair system of transfers that will help every town, city and province, prosper."

More information on the Ontario Chamber of Commerce's study can be found at www.occ.on.ca.

The OCC represents over 57,000 businesses through 160 local Chambers of Commerce and Boards of Trade, and has been the business advocate of choice since 1911. Its advocacy and policy initiatives focus on six areas key to the economic well-being of the province: health; education; energy; finance & taxation; transportation & infrastructure; and border issues.

For further information:
Brad Dugard (braddugard@occ.on.ca)
Director, Media Relations and Communications
Ontario Chamber of Commerce
(416) 482-5222, ext. 241

Download Media Release:
Microsoft Word document
Adobe Acrobat Reader .pdf

Source: http://www.occ.on.ca/2publications/mediareleases/2005/09262005.asp

...And a confederate election coming up and Ontario is going to decide who wins; if anyone. It's not over, but the beginning is over. Best of luck to any political party, trying to argue with every business that matters in the Canadas: and their employees, which leaves, um, no one left as taxpayers.

Or these and plenty more at the Atlantic [Canada] Institute for Market Research, which certainly isn't in Ontario:

“How to Fix Equalization to Encourage Growth. (http://www.aims.ca/aimslibrary.asp?cmPageID=192&ft=4&id=292) Atlantic Institute for Market Studies web site.

“Help that Hurts.” (http://www.aims.ca/aimslibrary.asp?cmPageID=192&ft=5&id=187) Atlantic Institute for Market Studies web site.

And plenty more with the usual: documentation (the sources, the facts, right from the governments as usual) that simply cannot be denied. The latter document is particularly enlightening; but they worked with the Ontario Chamber of Commerce on its last report, which made it quite enlightening -- other than to preachers who are used to taking one sentence out of context and claiming that they mean the opposite of what they do.

I'd sign off with the secret ruthless neocon radical nutase sign-off: but then it wouldn't be a secret and radical neocon commie-socialist nutcases could sneak into "our secret meetings" ... in the U.S., at um, that neocon secret hideout. In Texas. To pray for more war with the mooselums. And such.

 

[MMMike]

`Desperate' city looks at lottery
Feb. 10, 2006. 08:48 AM
PAUL MOLONEY
CITY HALL BUREAU


Call it LOT-T.O.

The cash-strapped City of Toronto is researching the idea of selling lottery tickets to raise cash for municipal projects.

"It could (raise) hundreds of millions," chief financial officer Joe Pennachetti said in an interview yesterday.

At the request of city council's budget committee, city lawyers are expected to report in a week on whether the new City of Toronto Act would give the city the power to run a lottery.

"The way the draft legislation reads, you can do everything except what it says you can't do," said city manager Shirley Hoy. "They have not said you cannot do a lottery, so we're saying to our lawyers we should be able to do that."

The act would allow the city to impose a number of fees such as a sales tax on tobacco, alcohol and tickets to entertainment events. City staff have said that such fees could bring in about $50 million a year.

But a lottery could allow the city, which is facing a $532 million shortfall in its 2006 operating budget, to tap into a lucrative revenue source. And as with the provincially run lotteries, the funds could be directed to specific projects.

"My own feeling is it would need to be linked with very specific kinds of projects, for example culture grants or recreation programs or youth programs," said Councillor Joe Mihevc, vice-chair of the budget committee. "People could then see a direct link between the ticket they're buying and the positive benefit in the community."

And while council is on record as opposing casinos in the city, a lottery may be different.

"I don't think there's a taste among Torontonians on the casino front, I don't think it's politically feasible, but on the lottery ticket side it might be," said Mihevc (Ward 21, St. Paul's).

While the city may have the power, city council may not want to go down that road, he warned.

"I think all the studies have shown it's a tax on the poor. Those are the folks who buy lottery tickets in the main and that's something we would have to consider."

"It's certainly something that the province and hospitals and other public agencies have used as fundraising mechanisms," said Councillor Sylvia Watson (Ward 14, Parkdale-High Park), vice-chair of the budget committee.

"Leaving aside the fundamental question of whether lotteries are a good, bad or an indifferent thing, if it's a form of fundraising that has served other levels of government well, there's no reason why we shouldn't at least consider it," Watson said.

"I'm quite prepared to buy lottery tickets if it's going to help restore some of the programs we need," said Councillor Kyle Rae (Ward 27, Toronto Centre-Rosedale), a budget committee member.

Pennachetti said the fact the city is even contemplating a lottery illustrates the serious predicament the city faces.

"We don't think we want to be in that business and we don't think we should be," he said. "That's how desperate you are, though, when you start to look at lotteries."

The Star

Pathetic. The gravy train is starting to seize up. The Rest of Canada better watch out.[/url]