Evil America?

Paco

Electoral Member
Jul 6, 2004
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Forgive me if this already has a thread or discussion currently in work. I didn’t see anything on it.

Bill O’Reilly has a few comments on the poll that claimed 40% of Canadian youth saw America as evil.

Here is the link. A couple of snippets…

* In Eastern Europe, Ronald Reagan's policies led to the freeing of 122 million from Soviet domination.

* More than 48 million South Koreans remain free because of American protection.

* Nearly 23 million Taiwanese remain free because of American protection.

* The state of Israel and 5.5 million Jews would be crushed by its enemies if not for American aid.

* America sends $3 billion a year to Africa to combat AIDS. Canada sends $270 million; France, $60 million.

And those countries have the nerve to portray America as a villain? How many human beings has France, or Canada, freed over the past 60 years? Those nations have helped the U.S. on occasion, but are drifting from reality now.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
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* In Eastern Europe, Ronald Reagan's policies led to the freeing of 122 million from Soviet domination.

This is pretty much false. Reagan's policies did little or nothing to end the Cold War. Lech Walesa was more instrumental in that than anything that Reagan did, but the fact is that the USSR collapsed under its own hubris and debts...much as the US seems to be doing right now.

* More than 48 million South Koreans remain free because of American protection.

Canada was also involved in the Korean War, so were many other countries. The US troops that have remained behind are unpopular with many Koreans.





* The state of Israel and 5.5 million Jews would be crushed by its enemies if not for American aid.

Are you proud of US complicity in crimes against humanity being perpetrated by Israel then?

* America sends $3 billion a year to Africa to combat AIDS. Canada sends $270 million; France, $60 million.

The US, by refusing to participate in the UN program, has undermined the effectiveness of that program. The aid that the US does provide is often linked to the acceptance of genetically modified crops, trade deals that less than fair, the condition that generic drugs not be used, and preaching the religious beliefs of the Bush cabinet.

The US is criticised for many of its actions, Paco. Those criticism stem from the actions and policies of the US. It is the biggest imperialist force in the world today. Your defence of it is bascially like the Romans responding to criticism of them by saying, "But we built aqueducts and baths."
 

Numure

Council Member
Apr 30, 2004
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List of American Supported Dictators in the past century.

CHIANG KAI-SHEK
President of Taiwan

NGO DINH DIEM
President of South Viet Nam

PARK CHUNG HEE
President of South Korea

MOHAMMED ZIA UL-HAQ
President of Pakistan

FULGENCIO BATISTA
President of Cuba

RAFAEL LEONIDAS TRUJILLO
President of the Dominican Republic

FRANÇOIS & JEAN CLAUDE DUVALIER
Presidents-for-Life of Haiti

GENERAL HUMBERTO BRANCO
President of Brazil

COLONEL HUGO BANZER
President of Bolivia

GENERAL JORGE RAFAEL VIDELA
President of Argentina

ALFREDO STROESSNER
President-for-Life of Paraguay

GENERAL AUGUSTO PINOCHET
President of Chile

MOHAMMAD REZA PAHLEVI
Shah of Iran, King of Kings

GENERAL FRANCISCO FRANCO
President of Spain

ANTONIO DE OLIVEIRA SALAZAR
Prime Minister of Portugal

GEORGE PAPADOPOULOS
Prime Minister of Greece

TURGUT OZAL
Prime Minister of Turkey

FERDINAND MARCOS
President of the Philippines

SIR HASSANAL BOLKIAH
The Sultan of Brunei

GENERAL SITIVENI RABUKA
Commander, Armed Forces of Fiji

GENERAL SUHARTO
President of Indonesia
 

researchok

Council Member
Jun 12, 2004
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What crimes against humanity has Israel participated in?

If indeed, thise kinds of crimes were of real concern to many of Israel's critics-- they would be more credible if they denounced far more heinous crimes by nations far more 'evil'.

There is no question Isreal is singled out-- in my opinion because of her relationship with the US-- but that in itself does not make her more 'evil' than other nations, in either relative or subjective comparisons.

There is plenty Israel is culpable of-- but lets not go off the deep end here.
 

researchok

Council Member
Jun 12, 2004
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Numure, it wasnt just the US that supported and recognized these regimes.

I dont recall Canada or much of the UN community refusing to do business with those you named.
 

Numure

Council Member
Apr 30, 2004
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Montréal, Québec
Paco said:
* America sends $3 billion a year to Africa to combat AIDS. Canada sends $270 million; France, $60 million.
[/i]

One thing you forgot to mention, the UN's program is much more cost effective. As it goes for the cheapest, most effective means to combat the desease. The American program, on the other hand, has so many strings attached its amasing. For one, the ones that benefit from the program, can only buy drugs from the American pharmaseuticals. The cost for does drugs, are up to 4 times more expensive then the generic version. Also, only countries that have open their doors to American compagnies (free trade) may benefit from the program. Thus, only 15 african countries are receiving american funds. Countries that are right wing, and unilateraly support America.

Let's see what Canada did to give a hand;
Canada 's smart strategy on HIV/AIDS

Canada is the first country in the world to implement the August 30, 2003, decision of the World Trade Organization to make less expensive versions of patented medicines available to developing countries facing public health problems. Bill C-9 or the Jean Chrétien Pledge to Africa Act is an example of how changing the way we do things in our own country can make a big difference for people in developing countries.
CIDA works in coordination and partnership with multilateral organizations, other donors, developing countries and civil society. We take a holistic approach to fighting HIV/AIDS, working concurrently on:


preventing HIV/AIDS through education, including on sexual and reproductive health, culturally attuned awareness-raising initiatives, and vaccine research;
caring, treating and supporting those living with and affected by HIV/AIDS to enable them to live longer and better lives; and
building human resource capacity in developing countries to fight HIV/AIDS.


For example:


Canada supports the Global Fund to fight HIV/AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria, a partnership between governments, civil society, the private sector and affected communities to scale up resources to support new and existing initiatives to fight these diseases, which are killing more than 6 million people each year.
Canada is a leading donor of the WHO's 3 by 5 initiative, which seeks to treat 3 million people with HIV/AIDS with antiretroviral (ARV) drugs by the end of 2005. Six million people infected with HIV in the developing world need immediate access to ARV therapy to survive. ARVs can dramatically reduce death rates, prolong lives and improve quality of life for those living with HIV/AIDS. The 3 by 5 initiative provides front-end technical assistance, helping to ensure that developing countries can build health systems to treat large numbers of people as well as make it possible for other initiatives, such as Bill C-9 and the Global Fund, to work most effectively
Canada supports the International AIDS Vaccine Initiative and the African AIDS Vaccine Programme in their efforts to develop a preventive vaccine for HIV/AIDS.
Canada helps to build health care capacity in developing countries by supporting country-led strategies to train health care providers, establish systems for drug procurement, and monitor and evaluate HIV/AIDS programs. Canada is, for example, helping to train developing countries—which will soon have access to lower-cost Canadian ARV generic drugs—to better understand how to obtain, ship, store and distribute the HIV/AIDS treatment drugs.


CIDA is using its resources efficiently and effectively: by integrating HIV/AIDS issues into all of its programming in Africa; by building on what works and sharing lessons and experiences; by focusing resources on hard-hit countries—such as South Africa, Mozambique and Tanzania; and by supporting innovative initiatives.
 

Numure

Council Member
Apr 30, 2004
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researchok said:
Numure, it wasnt just the US that supported and recognized these regimes.

I dont recall Canada or much of the UN community refusing to do business with those you named.

No. But did we go out of our way, to help does dictators, make the coup that eventually put them in power? Many of these dictators, we're supported by the American goverments, the CIA and what not, to take control over another dictator, less friendly to the US, or to replace an elected president, that isnt to friendly with the US. All to stop the "evil" spread of communism, well, anything that is left wing. Time and time again, they have shown that, if you don't support us, we will replace you with someone that does. Go back to when the Turkish, democraticly elected parlement, refused to help the US in its war against Iraq. A senior US official, said it would be time for the Turkish military to show its strenght. Something in the sort. As some might know, Turky is known for its countless military coup.
 

researchok

Council Member
Jun 12, 2004
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Everyone went out of their way to facilitate those regimes. Business is business, as they say.

Benign support is still support.

Actually, I dont necessarily disagree with some of your arguments.

Nevertheless. it is convenient to blame the US and take advantaqe of trade that benefits everyone 'back home'.

As for the evil of communism, well, ask people in Poland, Czechoslovakia, etc on the 'good old days'.

As for Turkey, in the end, it wasnt about what one US official's opinion was.
 

Numure

Council Member
Apr 30, 2004
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researchok said:
Everyone went out of their way to facilitate those regimes. Business is business, as they say.

Benign support is still support.

Actually, I dont necessarily disagree with some of your arguments.

Nevertheless. it is convenient to blame the US and take advantaqe of trade that benefits everyone 'back home'.

As for the evil of communism, well, ask people in Poland, Czechoslovakia, etc on the 'good old days'.

As for Turkey, in the end, it wasnt about what one US official's opinion was.

Communism was forced onto the people of Eastern Europe. Quite different then the revolutions that took place in Cuba, Russia, China, Vietnam...
 

researchok

Council Member
Jun 12, 2004
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Communism was forced onto the people of Eastern Europe. Quite different then the revolutions that took place in Cuba, Russia, China, Vietnam...

Excellent point-- but the same could be said for the countries you mentioned, save the technique.

Lenin, Stalin, Ho Chi Minh and Castro installed themselves as leaders and tolerated absolutely no dissent-- from Beriya to re education camps to the gulag.

The human toll was astronomical.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
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There is plenty Israel is culpable of-- but lets not go off the deep end here.

I don't think it's going off the deep end at all. Collective punishment is considered a crime against humanity. It also tends to cause more problems than it solves. Every act of collective punishment that Israel has committed is a crime against humanity.

If indeed, thise kinds of crimes were of real concern to many of Israel's critics-- they would be more credible if they denounced far more heinous crimes by nations far more 'evil'.

Yes, exactly. The thing is that Israel's supporters point only to the crimes committed by others and ignore those committed by Israel. Same with the US and France and Britain and Russia and all of the little states that they are supporting or in conflict with.

We have to say, "That's illegal," and go after whoever commits a crime no matter what that crime is or who perptrated it.
 

researchok

Council Member
Jun 12, 2004
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Rev, its a matter of triage-- welcome to the real world. To simply focus on Israelis disengious-- especially since the current situation came about as a result of a Palestinian intifadah. Remember, the PA was in charge of the territories, as per Oslo. They were armed and trained by the Israelis, again, as per Oslo.

Even collective punishment is relative.

Home demolitions are in no way comapable to Darfur mass rapes, the GIA in Algeria, etc.

I agree, illegal is illegal-- but call me crazy, illegal is relative too.

Pot smoking for example, isnt murder.

And so it goes..
 

moghrabi

House Member
May 25, 2004
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researchok said:
Now, if you REALLY want to stir the pot, see this.

Guess WHO facilitated building the barrier..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/07/25/wmid25.xml

Interesting article. And I totally agree that the Pals are helping build the wall. But you said before that Business is Business. These are smart business people, they know that the wall will be built no matter what. But they also know that it will collapse at a later time like the Berlin wall did. So there thinking is - Let's make millions while it lasts.

There is nothing illegal in selling cement to build the wall. The illegality is in building the wall to imprison millions of people.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
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Winnipeg
This isn't pot-smoking though, researchok. A more likely example would be arson, reckless endangerment, and manslaughter...far more serious crimes than smoking pot, though not as serious as rape and first degree murder.

I'm not at all surprised that some Palestinians are supplying materials for the wall. I don't agree that it's just smart business. I think that it amounts to complicity. About a month ago I heard something about Catepillar receiving a letter (from the UN I think) noting that by supplying the Israelis with armoured machinery to knock down houses with they may be breaking international law. Supplying concrete to build an illegal wall would fall under the same category.
 

researchok

Council Member
Jun 12, 2004
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Moghrabi said,

Interesting article. And I totally agree that the Pals are helping build the wall

The point I was making was regarding the immorality. If business people blur the line, well, that's one thing. They can be held accountable. But we're talking about a government here-- a government that puports to represent the best interests of the people it represents. Further, the cement sold is onlya small part of the problem-- the billions stolen over the decades are the real issue. To simply justify it by saying,

These are smart business people, they know that the wall will be built no matter what. But they also know that it will collapse at a later time like the Berlin wall did. So there thinking is - Let's make millions while it lasts.

is patently ridiculous. The fact of the matter is, the cement was sold (by Egypt) to at a discount to rebuild Palestinian homes and infrstructure-- not to enrich a select few PA ministers and their families. That cement- like billiions of dollars before it-- was stolen. I really am surprised your're defending the PA-- considering the last week or so. Given the revulsion and disgust the Palestinians are displaying towards the entrenched corruption, your position is puzzling.

There are similiar instances of PA malfeasance.

For example, the construction of the settlements themselves. Ever wonder why there has never been one instance of a demonstration by Palestinians against their construction? Imagine the value of the image of a thousand Palestinian schoool girls sitting in the road and blocking a bulldozer.

The reason is simple. Cement gate has been going on for decades. Palestinian cement and construction comapmies have been building the settlements for years. There are no demonstrations against the settlements because they disrupt business--a business that makes the same PA ministers millions. They don't give a damn about the plight of the Palestinians. Never have, never will.

Yes, it's true that those settlements will eventually come down.

Too bad the PA has been complicit in prolonging the conflict, entrenching corruption and has been taking advantage of the Palestinians for years, making money while population continues to pay for their misdeeds.

The EU has said enough is enough- they are 'sick and tired' of PA antics, to the point where they are longer willing to throw good money after bad.

The PA claims to come to the table wanting peace. Given their track record of corruption it isn't hard to understand why Palestinains are upset.

After all, why hurry peace when there's money to be made, right?
 

moghrabi

House Member
May 25, 2004
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It is goes both ways. Pals are making money and saying let peace wait. Now you have the settlers lining up for miles saying no to leaving the settlements. Now both of them do not want peace. Let's face it. Pals are making money knowing that they will never get their land back as per UN resolutiuon. I am not supportive of the PA crooks that they are aking money. I was just saying that this is how they are thinking. I would like to see how Sharon is going to give the Gaza stripe back as promised when you have thousands willing to fight. They are also threatining that the will destroy the Moslem Holy sites if they were kicked out of their Biblical land.
 

researchok

Council Member
Jun 12, 2004
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Settlers lining up was a demonstration, period.

See http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5772505

The Israelis are pulling out.

Finally, it isnt the PALS making money-- it is the corrupt PA. I truly do not understand your support of that corruption-- you seem to tolerate it- that goes against what the average Palestinian believes or deserves. Thats why theyre up in arms against the PA.

The only ones thinking about making money are the PA ministers, period.
 

moghrabi

House Member
May 25, 2004
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researchok said:
Settlers lining up was a demonstration, period.

See http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5772505

The Israelis are pulling out.

Finally, it isnt the PALS making money-- it is the corrupt PA. I truly do not understand your support of that corruption-- you seem to tolerate it- that goes against what the average Palestinian believes or deserves. Thats why theyre up in arms against the PA.

The only ones thinking about making money are the PA ministers, period.

Did you actually read my previous post where I said I am not supportive of the PA crooks that they are aking money. So i said it and i say it again. I am not supportive of the corruption the PA has been doing and I do not tolerate it.

Second. Now it is a demonstration. How about when they are asked to pack and leave. They made it clear that they will fight.
 

researchok

Council Member
Jun 12, 2004
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Since neither you nor I have a crystal ball, debating what ifs is a pointless endeavor.

The only issue is what is actually transpiring.

As to the corruption, forgive me for not being more clear. I was not literraly inplying that you supported corruption. I was inferring from your posts that there was somehow a legitimization of that corruption.

There are somethings that are black and white, even in the middle east.

Deliberate terror against civilians-- by EITHER side(Goldstein or suicide bombers, no distinction)-- and the corruption that has only worstened the plight of the Pals are both bllack and white issues.

The Pals deserve better- they deserve a state and the opportunity to mprove their lives-- an anything or anyone that precludes them from negotiating a settlement with the Israelis is complicit in their ongoing misery, period.