Discussion of Ukraine War

Serryah

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Dec 3, 2008
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I gotta give the Ukraine Pres. credit; he and his family are staying put while this is going on. Meanwhile they're target 1 and 2 for the Russians.

This from a TV comedian.

Better than some politicians, IMO.

As for Putin; he *thought* he'd have this in the bag by now; he doesn't. He *thought* people in Ukraine would side with him; they aren't. He *thought* people in Russia would be good with this; they aren't.

For a man who used to be considered super dangerous, he's even worse now because his 'thought' is going off into wackadoodle land.
 
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Tecumsehsbones

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I gotta give the Ukraine Pres. credit; he and his family are staying put while this is going on. Meanwhile they're target 1 and 2 for the Russians.

This from a TV comedian.

Better than some politicians, IMO.

As for Putin; he *thought* he'd have this in the bag by now; he doesn't. He *thought* people in Ukraine would side with him; they aren't. He *thought* people in Russia would be good with this; they aren't.

For a man who used to be considered super dangerous, he's even worse now because his 'thought' is going off into wackadoodle land.
On the upside, he has the unqualified support of the shithead wing of the Republican Party. Which is most of it now.
 
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Serryah

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On the upside, he has the unqualified support of the shithead wing of the Republican Party. Which is most of it now.

Which, had this been 20 years ago, people would be outraged by. Now it's "Meh".


Also saw a video that not only had Brit troops in it but also someone that sounded American. Makes me wonder how many out of country combatants will show to fight for Ukraine.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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Which, had this been 20 years ago, people would be outraged by. Now it's "Meh".


Also saw a video that not only had Brit troops in it but also someone that sounded American. Makes me wonder how many out of country combatants will show to fight for Ukraine.
Reports are saying 10,000 mercenaries so far.
 
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Dexter Sinister

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Oct 1, 2004
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I think it is clear at this point that Putin's goal is to reassemble the Soviet Union...
I think it's a little more complex and subtle than that, though I'd immediately agree that "Make Russia Great Again" is certainly part of his thinking. Putin's an old Soviet-era KGB thug, the fall of the USSR--or more honestly, the Russian Empire--in late 1991 was to him probably the greatest catastrophe of the 20th century. But I think a larger factor is NATO's expansion since then. One of the main drivers of Soviet/Russian foreign policy has always been a degree of paranoia, which is one of the reasons it maintained a ring of buffer states between Russia and the NATO countries. But since 1991 many of those states have joined NATO, the buffer is gone and the western alliance is now right up against its western border, which is perceived as a clear and immediate threat. When Ukraine started to make noises about joining the EU and NATO, the paranoia ratcheted up significantly, and whatever Putin's rhetoric, I'd argue that's the main reason for the invasion of Ukraine. Moreover, Putin's not the sort of man who'd want a successful democracy the size of Ukraine right next door, dictators don't like counter examples to their methods like that, so another of his motives might be described as "Making the world safe for autocracy."
 

Tecumsehsbones

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I think it's a little more complex and subtle than that, though I'd immediately agree that "Make Russia Great Again" is certainly part of his thinking. Putin's an old Soviet-era KGB thug, the fall of the USSR--or more honestly, the Russian Empire--in late 1991 was to him probably the greatest catastrophe of the 20th century. But I think a larger factor is NATO's expansion since then. One of the main drivers of Soviet/Russian foreign policy has always been a degree of paranoia, which is one of the reasons it maintained a ring of buffer states between Russia and the NATO countries. But since 1991 many of those states have joined NATO, the buffer is gone and the western alliance is now right up against its western border, which is perceived as a clear and immediate threat. When Ukraine started to make noises about joining the EU and NATO, the paranoia ratcheted up significantly, and whatever Putin's rhetoric, I'd argue that's the main reason for the invasion of Ukraine. Moreover, Putin's not the sort of man who'd want a successful democracy the size of Ukraine right next door, dictators don't like counter examples to their methods like that, so another of his motives might be described as "Making the world safe for autocracy."
That may be part of Putin's motivation, but I rather suspect it's more a flame he fans to keep support for his moves up.

He wants to be emperor, which means he wants the empire (by whatever name) back.
 
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Tecumsehsbones

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Pretty much proof of how out to lunch Putin is, he's asking the military to surrender and stop fighting for "Nazi's"...
He's throwing up dust. He's actually only slightly worse than anybody else, but only a fool would believe a single word that falls out of his mouth.

Hell, even the crazy fat kid knows that. He just agrees with Putin's goals (or rather, don't care about them). As long as Putin throws him a deal to make a few bucks every now and then, he don't care.
 
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Tecumsehsbones

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What the U.S. should do about Ukraine:

1. Continue to bring every possible economic sanction against Russia, and convince others to do the same.
2. Sell weapons to Ukraine.
3. Allow anybody so motivated to donate money and weapons to Ukraine (exceptions for weapons we don't allow out of the country because of the tech).
4. Give weapons to Ukraine.
5. Permit volunteers to go to Ukraine to fight.
6. Give careful consideration to joining any European-led military intervention.

What the U.S. should not do about Ukraine:

1. Unilaterally send American troops under any bullshit name.
2. Send or allow to be sent any tech we don't want reverse-engineered by Russia or China (or Germany, England, or France).