Catholic Rainbow Parents ain't buyin' it.

snfu73

disturber of the peace
MINNEAPOLIS -- On June 21st, at Spirit of the Lakes United Church of Christ, Minneapolis, a grass roots group of 30 Catholic parents of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered (GLBT) persons gathered to speak out in opposition to the Vatican’s stance on homosexuality and same-sex marriage.​

The parents, from a number of Twin Cities parishes, posed for a publicity photo and issued an invitation to other Catholic parents of GLBT persons to join them in formulating a collective statement to the Vatican.

At issue are Vatican references to homosexual persons as "objectively disordered" and "intrinsically inclined toward evil". In addition, Pope John Paul II, shortly before his death in April, described same-sex marriage as "part of an ideology of evil." More recently, his successor Pope Benedict XVI called such unions " banal", "anarchic" and "fake."

Darlene White, whose lesbian daughter has children of her own, says, "I believe that this kind of language is spiritually abusive of our loved ones and their families. We have had enough of this kind of talk".

White agrees with Bishop Thomas Gumbleton of Detroit who characterizes such language as "cruel" and "unjustified". He adds that he would never expect a parent to use such language in speaking to their child.

Other parents share similar views. "We believe all of our children, gay or straight, are called to a fullness of life which includes matrimony if they choose it," says Mary Lynn Murphy.

Chuck and Alice Rice believe that "As parents we are in a position to know the moral and spiritual goodness of our gay children and their partners".

Tom Murr, father of a gay son, observes that "historically the papacy has made numerous and serious mistakes of judgment.” In his view the hierarchy of the Catholic church is “in error” in its position on sexual minorities.

“When the hierarchy of the church aggressively attack and endanger our children, we consider it our responsibility to speak openly against the hierarchy’s stance in order to reassure our families and others that we are all children of God and worthy of equal human dignity,” says Murr. “It is for their safety, dignity and truth that we speak out and assume leadership on this subject."

Maria and Charlie Girsch, yet another Catholic couple willing to voice opposition to the Vatican’s stance on their child’s homosexuality, stress that “We’re card-carrying cradle Catholics who happen to be the parents of a child who is tall, dark-haired, wears size 14 shoes and gay – neither he nor we chose this combination. These are all God given traits and need to be honored in the spirit of the gospel command to ‘love one another.’ Until then we parents shall speak up and, inspired by the Jesus who challenged the religious leaders of his time, do all that we can to nudge all within the Catholic Church toward the loving acceptance of the gift of our child and every GLBT person.”

http://www.mtn.org/cpcsm/catholicrainbowparents.htm
 

AmberEyes

Sunshine
Dec 19, 2006
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Just an opinion, but doesn't it seem a bit strange, and stupid, for somebody with non-catholic views to remain catholic, all the while making every effort they can to change the religion they believe they are a part of? If christianity is anti-gay, and you're pro-gay, are you really christian? Do you not believe in something else, then? Why make the claim that you are something when you are not.
 

selfactivated

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Apr 11, 2006
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This is just my opinion mind you but I dont think being gay and christian are mutually exclusive. I have many gay friends some Pagan some christian. The both have a right to their beliefs.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
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Just an opinion, but doesn't it seem a bit strange, and stupid, for somebody with non-catholic views to remain catholic, all the while making every effort they can to change the religion they believe they are a part of? If christianity is anti-gay, and you're pro-gay, are you really christian? Do you not believe in something else, then? Why make the claim that you are something when you are not.


Exactly. That is the bottom line, as harsh as it seems.These people are, with respect to them, shouting at the wind. The Church has not changed its doctrines in 2,000 years. It is unlikely Holy Mother Church will do so now. Speaking only for The Catholic Church, all doctrines are required to be accepted by the members of the Church. It is not a "pick those you like, ignore the rest", religion.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
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This is just my opinion mind you but I dont think being gay and christian are mutually exclusive. I have many gay friends some Pagan some christian. The both have a right to their beliefs.


I understand what you are suggesting, but that is, perhaps, a problem with the Church for many people. The doctrines of the Church are, we believe, established by God. We do not have the authroity, we believe, to change them regardless of the wishes of minority activist groups within the Church.
 

snfu73

disturber of the peace
I understand what you are suggesting, but that is, perhaps, a problem with the Church for many people. The doctrines of the Church are, we believe, established by God. We do not have the authroity, we believe, to change them regardless of the wishes of minority activist groups within the Church.
I think you've summed it up...WE BELIEVE...which equates to opinion...which means the doctrines have been interpreted. So, given that, how can you say what YOU believe in relation to the catholic church is right, where as their interpretation is wrong?
 

selfactivated

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Apr 11, 2006
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I understand what you are suggesting, but that is, perhaps, a problem with the Church for many people. The doctrines of the Church are, we believe, established by God. We do not have the authroity, we believe, to change them regardless of the wishes of minority activist groups within the Church.


I knew better than to comment......But that just makes me sad. Do you think your Jesus would push anyone away?
 

snfu73

disturber of the peace
Their doctrine.....



July 2005
We the undersigned, declare the following to be true of our experiences as informed, loving parents of gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgend (GLBT) persons:
1. Homosexuality is a variant of the God-given gift of human sexuality. It is a gift that our blessed GLBT children, like their straight siblings, are called to express lovingly and responsibly.
Accordingly, we do not accept as truth the notion expressed by the 1986 letter of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, that homosexual orientation is "objectively disordered" or that because of this orientation GLBT people are "intrinsically inclined toward evil."
Such characterizations are in defiance of modern science and the lived experience of families such as ours - families that are in a better position than the Vatican to observe and comment on the moral and spiritual integrity of their children, be they gay or straight.
We believe that the Vatican's very choice of such language indicates a fundamental disregard for the innate value of an entire group of people. The effects of such language are profoundly dehumanizing and spiritually abusive of these persons and those who love them. Additionally, language of this kind fuels the fires of bigotry and places GLBT persons in great physical and emotional danger.
We feel responsible as parents, as Catholics, and as citizens to confront such language that demeans and disenfranchises not only GLBT Catholics, but all GLBT persons.
We also feel a responsibility to confront and challenge misconceptions and inaccuracies concerning GLBT people - including the idea that homosexuality is a choice, that it is a "curable condition" or a "changeable lifestyle," or that it is equivalent to pedophilia. Pedophilia is a mental illness whereas homosexuality is a minority variant of the God-given gift of human sexuality.
We share the perspective of the National Catholic Risk Retention Group's VIRTUS programs, with which the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis collaborates in response to the mandate of the "Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People" adopted by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops in June 2002.
The VIRTUS programs report that, "It is a myth that most sex abusers are homosexuals. Most sex offenders are not homosexual; they are heterosexual . . . Studies repeatedly show that most male molesters of boys are not homosexual with adults. It is a faulty assumption that an adult male who selects a young boy as a victim is gay."
Recognizing that homosexuality is an expression of the sacred gift of human sexuality, we bear public witness to the joy and blessings that our GLBT children bring to our families and our communities. We celebrate our children as gifts from God in all of their aspects, and regard them as full-fledged members of both Church and society.
2. We acknowledge and celebrate the life-giving relationships of our GLBT children and support them in their choice to have their loving, committed, and sacramentally experienced relationships ecclesiastically and/or civilly validated through either sacramental marriage or civil unions.
Accordingly, we do not accept as truth the notion that same-sex marriage is, in the words of the late Pope John Paul II, part of "an ideology of evil," or that such unions, in the words of Pope Benedict XVI, are "fake" or constitute a form of anarchy that "banalizes" the human body. Nor do we support Benedict XVI's contention that gay unions threaten children with abuse.
Such assertions are not based in fact, and amount to an undisguised attack on the loving relationships and families of GLBT persons. In contrast to the Vatican, we see the issue of same-sex marriage as a clear-cut social justice issue. The human rights and dignity of an entire class of people are assaulted when their love and fidelity to each other and their children are broadly dismissed as "evil." No other group of human beings have been subjected to this kind of sweeping denunciation by virtue of their God-given instincts for human love and relational intimacy.
We denounce the Vatican's worldwide activism in support of laws that would deny GLBT persons both marriage and full rights of citizenship in the form of legalized civil unions. We view the enshrinement of discrimination in the laws of local, national, and international governments as the antithesis of the love and justice for which our churches and governments should stand.
We call upon the Vatican and members of the Catholic hierarchy to recognize and confront the specter of internalized homophobia that is a key component of their aggressive posture toward GLBT Catholics, their partners, and supporters
We view the Church as a living, evolving entity that is most catholic when it is shaped by the life experiences of all its members. Throughout its history, the Church has been known to change its position on various issues in the light of increased understanding of specific realities. The time is long overdue for members of the church hierarchy to be open to the realities of GLBT people's lives and relationships.
In light of our parental leadership regarding this issue, we invite those in positions of ecclesiastical leadership to open themselves to the wisdom and love that we have gained as parents of GLBT persons.
It is our hope that openness to such wisdom and love, to the presence of God in the experiences of GLBT people and those closest to them, will compel those in positions of ecclesiastical leadership to a conversion of heart and a change in their language and position on homosexuality and same-sex marriage
 

AmberEyes

Sunshine
Dec 19, 2006
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I knew better than to comment......But that just makes me sad. Do you think your Jesus would push anyone away?

Unfortunately that's not the point. The point is, in catholocism, such pro views on homosexuality are frowned upon. They believe that it is wrong and against God, and who are we to tell them it's wrong? Do we like it when they stuff their beliefs down OUR throats, why do it to them in return??

If you don't share the views, leave the church. And yes, I know it isnt' that simple.

Before I forget to add this in...

I don't believe that Catholics are right, I never have. I believe in pro-choice for many things, including sexuality and abortion. But I'm not going to force anybody else to think the way I do, it just so happens to go against my beliefs.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
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I knew better than to comment......But that just makes me sad. Do you think your Jesus would push anyone away?

No, but at the same time He would instruct them to sin no more. It is a hard teaching for some, like most teachings of any faith I suppose.The church does not turn anyone away, but it does expect those who come to it to adhere to its doctrines.
 

selfactivated

Time Out
Apr 11, 2006
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Unfortunately that's not the point. The point is, in catholocism, such pro views on homosexuality are frowned upon. They believe that it is wrong and against God, and who are we to tell them it's wrong? Do we like it when they stuff their beliefs down OUR throats, why do it to them in return??

If you don't share the views, leave the church. And yes, I know it isnt' that simple.

But thats not christ's teaching. He excluded noone. The catholics say the are based on the teachings of christ so why exclude anyone. Its THAT simple. Hypocracy was frowned on by christ himself. Thats why the temple was torn apart by his hands.
 

snfu73

disturber of the peace
Unfortunately that's not the point. The point is, in catholocism, such pro views on homosexuality are frowned upon. They believe that it is wrong and against God, and who are we to tell them it's wrong? Do we like it when they stuff their beliefs down OUR throats, why do it to them in return??

If you don't share the views, leave the church. And yes, I know it isnt' that simple.

Before I forget to add this in...

I don't believe that Catholics are right, I never have. I believe in pro-choice for many things, including sexuality and abortion. But I'm not going to force anybody else to think the way I do, it just so happens to go against my beliefs.
The issue is, these are damaging views toward society, and they do try to jam them down our throats by being activists themselves to push their moral issues into the laws of the land. The gay bashing that the Catholic church too often partakes in should be dealt with the same as racism is dealt with, the same as anti semitism is dealt with. There is...and should be seperation of church and state in this country. But too often we are exposed to the gay bashing, and the attempts to bring those gay bashing ways into our laws, into our communities, into our relationships and into our bedrooms. If they want to sit their and think that gays are evil...that's one thing...but too often, members of the catholic organization are activily fighting the GLBT community, and attempting to suppress them and rob them of rights...while bashing them. That's unacceptable.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
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www.poetrypoem.com
Their doctrine.....


It is our hope that openness to such wisdom and love, to the presence of God in the experiences of GLBT people and those closest to them, will compel those in positions of ecclesiastical leadership to a conversion of heart and a change in their language and position on homosexuality and same-sex marriage


That is NOT the doctrine of the Church. This, however is:

Catechism of the Catholic Church 2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2396 Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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Exactly. That is the bottom line, as harsh as it seems.These people are, with respect to them, shouting at the wind. The Church has not changed its doctrines in 2,000 years. It is unlikely Holy Mother Church will do so now. Speaking only for The Catholic Church, all doctrines are required to be accepted by the members of the Church. It is not a "pick those you like, ignore the rest", religion.

The church has consistantly changed it's doctrine, changed the gospel and manipulated the law and customs of every community unlucky enough to be cursed by its pressence.
 
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sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
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But thats not christ's teaching. He excluded noone. The catholics say the are based on the teachings of christ so why exclude anyone. Its THAT simple. Hypocracy was frowned on by christ himself. Thats why the temple was torn apart by his hands.

That is Christ's teaching though. He excluded no-one, but He always instructed people to "go and sin no more". That is the part of the Gospel most people don't like to focus on. In fact, Jesus mentions sin far more than He mentions love in the Gospels. Jesus always instructs us to make a change of life to conform to the expectations of God.
 

AmberEyes

Sunshine
Dec 19, 2006
495
36
28
Vancouver Island
The issue is, these are damaging views toward society, and they do try to jam them down our throats by being activists themselves to push their moral issues into the laws of the land. The gay bashing that the Catholic church too often partakes in should be dealt with the same as racism is dealt with, the same as anti semitism is dealt with. There is...and should be seperation of church and state in this country. But too often we are exposed to the gay bashing, and the attempts to bring those gay bashing ways into our laws, into our communities, into our relationships and into our bedrooms. If they want to sit their and think that gays are evil...that's one thing...but too often, members of the catholic organization are activily fighting the GLBT community, and attempting to suppress them and rob them of rights...while bashing them. That's unacceptable.

Then perhaps instead of trying to change the churchs opinion on homosexuality, they should focus on removing the church from the government. Put all of that energy into seperating the two, seeing as that's the main issue anyway.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
197
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Homosexuality is natural, many cultures have been smart enough to revere those who see in multiple directions, the gay community of mankind has made contributions far above its numbers, and has since before civilization began. Nothing will change that, especially the Roman Nightmare.
 

selfactivated

Time Out
Apr 11, 2006
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I am fast coming to the conclusion that there is no way that these subjects can be discussed without feelings being hurt......Im not up for it tonight. Have fun yall and for Goddess sake be nice.