Capital Punishment and the Democratic State.

American Voice

Council Member
Jun 4, 2004
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February 3, 2004

Letters
The Columbus Dispatch
34 South Third Street
Columbus, Ohio 43215

Dear Letters:

In his letter published February 3, regarding capital punishment Thomas W. Billing makes a couple of interesting points. “The death penalty is nothing but revenge,” he writes. “It is barbaric and should have no place in a so-called civilized society.”

Leaving aside considerations of morality, the issue of capital punishment, whether it be right or wrong, is a matter of law. The most fundamental question here is whether a state deriving its just powers from the consent of the governed ought to have the power to deliberately cause the death of one of those citizens for the cause of having violated one of its laws.

At various points in our history, serious omissions in our United States Constitution regarding the fundamental rights of citizens were corrected by resort to the amending process, contained in Article V of that document. Among the Amendments, Article Thirteen was adopted in 1868, abolishing the institution of slavery. In 1920, Article Nineteen was adopted, enfranchising women.

At her confirmation hearing, U.S. Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, when asked about her views on the death penalty, sagely replied that by the inclusion of the words “capital,” and “deprived of life,” contained in Article Five of the Amendments, it was clear what the framers intended. Furthermore, Article Fourteen makes reference to the power of “any State (to) deprive any person of life,” so long as it is consistent with “due process of law.”

Returning to the question, ought a democratic state have the power to terminate the right of one of its citizens for a violation of the law; the fact is, the United States government has that power. While the document itself was ratified directly by a majority of the enfranchised citizens of the country, the first ten articles of the Amendments to the U.S. Constitution were ratified indirectly on their behalf by elected State legislatures, in 1791. Whether the citizenry, if asked directly, would have consented to allowing the state to inflict capital punishment is certainly a matter for conjecture. I wonder what would be the consensus today?

If there were a consensus for the abolition of capital punishment in the United States, an amendment might be crafted expunging the pertinent references in the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments underpinning its institution. That would be a worthy cause.
 

Vincent_2002

Electoral Member
Mar 27, 2002
181
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Montréal, Quebec
That would be a worthy cause, American Voice. The Death Penalty has been abolished across the globe in countries even the United States would consider barbaric! How ironic.

It is legal in only a handful of states, am I wrong? Either way it is a barbaric process which I would like to see removed. Is it possible to start a group down in your country of concerned citizens or something over the Internet? You should look into it.
 

American Voice

Council Member
Jun 4, 2004
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Thank you, Vincent.

Those activists I have met who were promoting the abolition of capital punishment had never thought of my approach. They were proposing a state law.

For the state to deprive a person of life is the same as to deprive them of their right. Now, you may say that is a sophistry, but concede it for the sake of argument. The Constitution expressly forbids bills of attainder, which are instruments by which a citizen is stripped of all rights as such. So, is capital punushment the same as a bill of attainder? It's a paradox. My argument is simplistic, I grant you, but it does beg the question.
 

Spock

New Member
Jul 29, 2004
26
0
1
38 states have death penalty statutes on the books -- hardly a handful. Three-quarters of Americans, and a majority of Canadians, favour the death penalty as a judicial option, as do slim majorities in many Western European countries which have abolished capital punishment.

"Any man who murders another man, has declared that he does not accept the principle of individual rights. He is worse then an animal, as he has chosen to abdicate his reason, in order to act like an animal. He has adopted the code of the jungle, and must be dealt with like the animals in the jungle. He can make no claim to the principle of rights for protection. He deserves death."
 

American Voice

Council Member
Jun 4, 2004
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Spock, are you U.S., or Canadian? Canadians are more progressive on these things. If you were an American, I might take your temperature, so to speak.
 

Numure

Council Member
Apr 30, 2004
1,063
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Montréal, Québec
Spock said:
38 states have death penalty statutes on the books -- hardly a handful. Three-quarters of Americans, and a majority of Canadians, favour the death penalty as a judicial option, as do slim majorities in many Western European countries which have abolished capital punishment.

"Any man who murders another man, has declared that he does not accept the principle of individual rights. He is worse then an animal, as he has chosen to abdicate his reason, in order to act like an animal. He has adopted the code of the jungle, and must be dealt with like the animals in the jungle. He can make no claim to the principle of rights for protection. He deserves death."

I proved you wrong on another board, that Canadians do not favor the death penalty. I can find, and repost all does more uptodate polls that have been done. 8)
 

Numure

Council Member
Apr 30, 2004
1,063
0
36
Montréal, Québec
American Voice said:
Spock, are you U.S., or Canadian? Canadians are more progressive on these things. If you were an American, I might take your temperature, so to speak.

He is from Canada, new-brunswick to be precise. I know him from another board, and at some point, I sent him the link.
 

American Voice

Council Member
Jun 4, 2004
1,172
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36
New Brunswick, that's where those delicious Kennebec potatoes come from.

Yeah, too often capital punishment is regarded as a moral issue, and the passions cloud the judgment. My question--and my conviction--is to ask whether the state should have the power?
 

Spock

New Member
Jul 29, 2004
26
0
1
Numure said:
Spock said:
38 states have death penalty statutes on the books -- hardly a handful. Three-quarters of Americans, and a majority of Canadians, favour the death penalty as a judicial option, as do slim majorities in many Western European countries which have abolished capital punishment.

"Any man who murders another man, has declared that he does not accept the principle of individual rights. He is worse then an animal, as he has chosen to abdicate his reason, in order to act like an animal. He has adopted the code of the jungle, and must be dealt with like the animals in the jungle. He can make no claim to the principle of rights for protection. He deserves death."

I proved you wrong on another board, that Canadians do not favor the death penalty. I can find, and repost all does more uptodate polls that have been done. 8)
I remember that poll. It found 53% of Canadians favoured the re-institution of the death penalty, and only Quebecers did not.

And three-quarters of Canadians supported the death penalty at the time it was abolished in civilian law.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
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Winnipeg
The state should not have the power, American Voice. We've convicted too many who were later found to be innocent, the likelyhood of conviction andthe severity of sentences is too affected by income brackets and racial background, the death penalty has been shown not to be a deterrent, and it costs more to kill somebody than to keep them alive.

The death penalty should be relegated to history as a brutal and stupid path to follow.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
Education and working with groups that are against the death penalty to achieve some political backing. You might look into Steve Earle's work on the matter. He's been involved with it for quite some time as kind of a celebrity spokeperson.
 

American Voice

Council Member
Jun 4, 2004
1,172
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36
At one of our public radio stations here, the music director is an unabashed fan of Steve's. He even donated one of his guitars for the station to auction during a fundraiser. I didn't know he was politically active.

Amnesty International, now there's a name I haven't heard in eons. I used to subscribe to the Matchbox. I remember writing politely-worded letters to high government officials in places like Chile, El Salvador and South Africa. That was a trip.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
He's very politically active. Moreso since he got off the dope, but going all the way back to his first album, and likely before, he was fighting for causes that he believed in.
 

American Voice

Council Member
Jun 4, 2004
1,172
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Blair, are you familiar with Bruce Cockburn? I think you must be, doesn't every album he releases receive the Juno award?