Canadian politics can leave you wanting a shower.

[I think not]

Re: RE: Canadian politics can leave you wanting a shower.

ITN illuminated us all with the observation: “People all over the world have one thing in common, to better their lives, and it is their lives that take precedence because it is innate in the individual.”

Aside from our friends creative interpretation i.e. “the vast majority” = “…every citizen of Canada”, he offers a proposition that’s if not simply incorrect, presumes an understanding of people’s motivation without acknowledging pertinent fact.

Keeping ones government and politicians accountable represents a fundamental avenue to improving ones life. Ignoring what’s going on ends up with exactly what’s going on in the United States of Paranoia.

The pertinent fact MikeyDB is that individuality is innate in all living things. Fantastic social constructs exist only in the minds of the fringe left (*hint*hint*wink*).

 

[Simpleton]

Re: RE: Canadian politics can leave you wanting a shower.

Read the post ITN what you'll see is "the vast majority" maybe I should post US statistics regarding illiteracy rates in the United States...

Do what your simpleton mind desires, if you are capable of lumping a "vast majority" of Canadians into one mould because most of them don't believe in your radical theories, then by all means, post some more about the US you seem to "know so well".

From your first post it was easy to follow where you were heading for one simple reason, you have nothing new to offer in terms of ideas and perhaps even worse, you bitch and give no resolution to the problems you bring up.

Ho Hum.

I'm relatively new to these forums, so I haven't read the literally thousands of posts here, but I have read this particular thread. I haven't seen any radical theories offered by MikeyDB, and I certainly haven't offered any radical theories. I think MikeyDB may be correct in his assessment that you are somewhat illiterate.

 

[I think not]

Re: RE: Canadian politics can leave you wanting a shower.

I'm relatively new to these forums, so I haven't read the literally thousands of posts here, but I have read this particular thread. I haven't seen any radical theories offered by MikeyDB, and I certainly haven't offered any radical theories. I think MikeyDB may be correct in his assessment that you are somewhat illiterate.

If you don't feel MikeyDB has radical theories, then I can only assume you're of the same ilk as he is.

And I am quite literate, thank you.

 

[MikeyDB]

Simpleton

Our good American "Friend" ITN has a good deal to say about everything and no he hasn't offered any solutions to anything that he's taken the time to pontificate, so his criticism of my contributions is as hollow as ever.

 

[Simpleton]

Re: RE: Canadian politics can leave you wanting a shower.

You don't think that "pleasing our American neighbors was exactly what NAFTA is all about?

You don't think that the situation in Manitoba that sees international boundaries laughed at wtihout so much as a single Canadian politician addressing that issue isn't being done to "please our American neighbors"...

You don't think our governments unwillingness to enact legislation to recover the billions taken illegally by the lumber cartels in the US doesn't send the signal that you can shit on Canada any time you like....

The list of effforts to please our American neighbors goes on and on, and of course the number of issues that remain unaddressed for fear of riling our corporate sponsors is large as well.

Nice post though I think it's a little heavy on the side of rose colored glasses.

NAFTA was introduced by the Conservative government of Brian Mulroney. All of the examples you provided, were either former Liberal leaders, Liberal turncoats, or refugees to the Liberal party. Further demonstrating my earlier contention that you lacked any fondness for the federal Liberal party.

I don't believe that Canadian politicians have any real desire to please the Americans. I think that our Canadian representatives do a fair amount of grumbling, and I used Jean Chretien and Paul Martin as examples. We mustn't fail to recognize the reality of our relationship with the United States. Canada is the husband/boyfriend that never really gets any input in anything, and the United States is the overbearing wife/girlfriend that will always get what she wants, simply because she has the goods.

The late Pierre Trudeau described Canada's relationship with the United States as one of being in bed with an elephant; every little move it makes affects Canada in a big way. And I don't think anyone would accuse the Late Prime Minister of catering to the whims of the U.S.

 

[I think not]

Re: RE: Canadian politics can leave you wanting a shower.

Simpleton

Our good American "Friend" ITN has a good deal to say about everything and no he hasn't offered any solutions to anything that he's taken the time to pontificate, so his criticism of my contributions is as hollow as ever.

It's rather simple MikeyDB, I don't need to offer any solutions because I don't share your view of the "problem". I do believe it is you bitching about everything, NAFTA, the US and now of course the "dull" Canadians. You haven't given me any indication you seek a solution or an understanding. Carry on.

 

[Simpleton]

Re: RE: Canadian politics can leave you wanting a shower.

It occurs to me as well that the decision by the "street fighter" (better known as 'thug' in popoular literature declining to get involved in the illegal invasion of Iraq was more akin to common sense than something to irk our "American neighbors".

Do you really think that the American and Canadain media wouldn't be flooded with moral outrage if say Russia had invaded some nation....

And if you don't think that has anything to do with America please research who owns operates and controls the largest media companies in the world. Guess...go ahead take a guess

For $200, I'll go with "They own, operate, and control the largest media companies in the world" Alex.

Oh, and that's our daily double.

"This country, bordering Canada to the north, and Mexico to the south, is home to Time Warner, one of the largest media companies in the world."

Buzz...

What is the United States of America?

That is correct.

I'm not entirely certain that I'm following your line of thought here, MikeyDB? American media sort of has a moral obligation to their nations's troops, which are in harm's way. It is one thing to be critical of a government that invades another country, but to condemn the innocent middlemen who were just obeying orders, is a bitter pill to swallow.

 

[MikeyDB]

Simpleton

I started this thread simply as an exercise in examining a political system that needs examining and where the absurdities of our elected officials might be brought into focus.

Through an accident of cosmic ambivalence I suppose we find ourselves neighbor to a once promising nation that's slipping down the tubes every second that ticks by.

And what's truly unfortunate about this situation is that it isn't as though the United States has suffered anything near the death destruction and chaos its administrations feel are appropriate in metting out to secure the "American Dream".

I'd rather not have American style "politics" practiced in Canada but I feel that the proximity in and of itself renders that an almost utopian idea.

I reiterate: It doesn't matter that NAFTA was a Mulroney appeasement to big business and it doesn't matter that he was a Conservative. Party politics really isn't a matter of philosophy with Canadian politicians it's a charade much like the Dems and Reps in the US. There's only the wealthy vs the poor and this "party" construct simply allows the charade to continue without the burden of being named for what it is.... rule by an oligarchy of the wealthy.

 

[Said1]

I'd rather not have American style "politics" practiced in Canada but I feel that the proximity in and of itself renders that an almost utopian idea.

And what "style" appeals to you? And don't say none, just pick one to us as a comparison. Thanks.

 

[MikeyDB]

Greetings Said1!

I don’t think it really has a name, or perhaps it’s just never been practiced so it’s a concept in fact not a ‘style’ one might pick from a list.

I’d like a government that (whether comprised of the wealthy or not) has a vision of what it is to live in the world. An acknowledgement that humanity isn’t just white-skinned and male, that every living creature on the face of this planet breathes the same air and drinks the same water. That contributing to the necessities of life (for all life everywhere) will have greater impact on achieving peace and stability than all the nuclear weapons and war machines combined.

A government that institutes changes for the betterment of the whole not just the few. A body of intelligent feeling individuals smart enough not to be led around by their pocket-books or “holy-books”, but guided by principles that places the well being of people of all races creeds and philosophies as its highest priority.

Flush all the crap like “We have a moral obligation…a “Destiny” to bring democracy to the world….” There hasn’t been a democracy survive any longer than a handful of other ideologies that have come and gone.

No nation or people of this planet have the “right” to dictate to all others and no nation or people of this planet are deserving of the contempt and hatred of all others.

A government that recognizes and is willing to engage in meeting needs before succumbing to the wants of an elite few. A government that addresses inequity with generosity and is prepared to forego petty empire building in the name of wealth or religious belief.

A government that isn’t up-for-sale. A government bound by laws and answerable to the citizens of the planet when it chooses to break those laws.

A government that seeks to unify and embrace, a government that acknowledges when it errs and works to redress those faulty judgments and errors.

Getting a sense of what I’m after…..?

I can hear the naysayers already….

“What utopian drivel!”

“How can one expect this kind of government from a species incapable of this kind of thinking and behaviour….what nonsense!”

What I seek may very well be utopian and it may demand that people take that next step in evolving toward something other than a reliance on some obviously failing notion like “survival of the fittest” or “winner take all”….

We’ve known for a very long time that when we build inequity into our systems of governance and law that our societies and nations will be unjust inequitable and fraught with discontent and rebellion.

We’ve known for a very long time that when we build massive machines of war that our civilizations will experience war.

We’ve known for a very long time that we don’t live in a bubble in space with unlimited resources and yet…..

The only way to begin movement toward this kind of government this “style” is identifying where we can improve and that necessarily means re-visiting our failures and analyzing our mistakes.

An unpleasant but necessary labor.

 

[MikeyDB]

“The pertinent fact MikeyDB is that individuality is innate in all living things.”

OK ITN so you’re not just illiterate, you also have serious shortcomings in the area of scientific knowledge.

The longest living species on this planet are social animals ITN NOT individuals.

 

[Simpleton]

Re: RE: Canadian politics can leave you wanting a shower.

I reiterate: It doesn't matter that NAFTA was a Mulroney appeasement to big business and it doesn't matter that he was a Conservative. Party politics really isn't a matter of philosophy with Canadian politicians it's a charade much like the Dems and Reps in the US. There's only the wealthy vs the poor and this "party" construct simply allows the charade to continue without the burden of being named for what it is.... rule by an oligarchy of the wealthy.

I disagree, as I have said, NAFTA was introduced and passed under the Conservative government of Brian Mulroney. Mr. Mulroney called a national election as a quasi-referendum on NAFTA, and his party was re-elected with a majority government.

As I have also previously stated, the federal Liberal government of Jean Chretien viewed Canada/USA relations with a rather obvious disdain. I think it is fair to say that the former Liberal government did great damage to Canada/USA relations. Former Prime Minister Paul Martin conceded this notion and agreed that Canada/USA relations needed some repair.

I think you will recall the stern warnings that Mr. Martin received from America's Ambassador to Canada in the last election. Clearly, Canadian politicians are not afraid of offending the United States, but care must be taken to ensure that relations are not altogether soured.

As for the Canadian Parliament's track record on Canada/USA relations, and the perceived assimilation of Canadian culture and tradition to that of its American neighbour, there's not really much Canadian government can do about that. Canada remains a free country, and Canadians should be free to choose their own destiny and make the decisions that best effect their lifestyles and situations. To this end, I believe that the Canadian government has a very good history of preserving Canadian identity and plotting its own course, independent of much American influence. To the best of their abilities, anyway.

With regard to problems in the Canadian political system, where do I sign up for the "Yes" side? Yes, there are very definite problems with the Canadian political system, and you are well within your right to be critical.

 

[Said1]

What I seek may very well be utopian and it may demand that people take that next step in evolving toward something other than a reliance on some obviously failing notion like “survival of the fittest” or “winner take all”….

Utopian drivel indeed. LOL. :lol:

However, I will agree that change has to start at a local level. People have to want it, it can't be left to politicians, power corrupts, doesn't it?

Ultimately, I think the lack of community within our society has left us very dependant on the government to fix things. Citizens have more power within their communities than they are willing to weild or possibly know they possess.

And yes, I from the stock that believes in the old adege of "it takes a village to raise a child", just as I believe it takes a village to take care of a village. Does that make any sense? I don't articulate these thoughts outside of me own head very often. :lol:

Anyway, quite the predickiemint we're in, wouldn't you say?

 

[MikeyDB]

Why should we be concerned with not upsetting the Yanks?

We haven't screwed them anywhere near the way they've srewed us over for years.

I'd like to see a countervailing tariff on all energy exports to the US and a serious effort on the part of the Canadian government to reduce our dependency of trade with the US. They're more than willing to go to war over oil and more than willing to throw away agreements that don't serve their interests....

We've trusted America once and the America we trusted is gone.

 

[MikeyDB]

Said1

That notion of a villiage to raise a child is a common African sentiment found across almost the entirity of the dark continent.

We have moved so far away from that sentiment (and been pushed) that it's become normal in Canada to look for the government nipple everytime we turn around.

We have to work to change peoples minds and any help you can offer would be greatly appreciated!

 

[MikeyDB]

I figure ITN will squirm around the issue of “social animals” and even if making the leap to understand that ants and bees and polyp colonies and an enormous number of different species thrive without “individualism” it’s likely he’ll stumble over this logic being applied to Homo Sapiens.

We are highly complex individual organisms that have evolved to become the dominant species on this planet….from one perspective at least.

This individualism that ITN (a good American) prizes even above survival it seems has played a significant role in establishing mankind as this “dominant” species, I would be remiss to deny.

The penchant that ITN and all good Americans have for this “individualism before all else” is a silly mind-game at best. It’s like the semantics game people play around concepts like “socialism” and “capitalism”….

The good capitalist uses roads paid for by everyone…he/she participates willingly (to lesser and greater degrees of course) in a system of taxation and shared wealth…..

Because it makes sense to educate our children and it makes sense to form collaborations when a dynamic crucial to our continued survival is recognized as only possible when significant numbers of people embrace the same aim.

“Individualism is innate” is one cornerstone of the formula that allows the few to subjugate others in the name of exercising their “freedom” to be an “individual”, and yes it’s also true that many can thwart the interests and yes even the survival of the one but the idea that “individualism” is the highest value is simply hogwash.

What gave rise to “society” (social organizing principles) was recognition that community working together could achieve what the individual could not achieve alone.

 

[Said1]

Re: RE: Canadian politics can leave you wanting a shower.

Said1

That notion of a villiage to raise a child is a common African sentiment found across almost the entirity of the dark continent.

Not only African, there's some old timer Canadians who still remember when......

We have moved so far away from that sentiment (and been pushed) that it's become normal in Canada to look for the government nipple everytime we turn around.

We certainly have. I wasn't raised with this mentality either. I grew up lauging at the watch dog old lady, poking her nose through the curtains. Now I find myself yelling over, asking if the mail man has passed yet. I grew up in suburbia, that's what phones are for! :lol:

We have to work to change peoples minds and any help you can offer would be greatly appreciated!

I don't know. Force them to watch Corner Gas, a la Clock Work Orange?

I guess people just have to make a larger effort to get to befriend on another. Their is often a lack of apathy towards strangers, when people are so distant and guarded towards one another they feel no kinship, no sense of responsiblity towards those who may be having hard times. NOt that communities never pull together, but it often takes a serious tragedy such as a random murder for this to take place.

This is not a Utopian ideal either, this is how people used to survive. Family was everything. Maybe you're more conservative than was originally thought. Ok. Eagletarian then.

 

[MikeyDB]

Canadian taxpayers have huge pockets…


“Bill Graham, Minister of National Defence. “HMCS CHICOUTIMI's handover to the Canadian Forces illustrates the progress we are making in establishing a modern submarine fleet that will serve Canadians extremely well for the next 25 years.”
October 1, 2004

“HALIFAX - Prime Minister Paul Martin has confirmed in the House of Commons that one crew member on the disabled sub HMCS Chicoutimi has died.
A British helicopter took three sailors to an Irish hospital after airlifting them from the Canadian submarine that is drifting without power in the Atlantic off Ireland.”
October 7, 2004

“The Victoria is one of four Upholder-class submarines that the British Royal Navy launched in the late 1980s and early 1990s before withdrawing them from service in 1994. Canada bought from the British navy in 1998 for $891 million.”
“The navy is now spending about $200,000 to buy old electrical equipment that mirrors the original equipment found on the submarine.”
14 May 2006

Bill Graham is a lawyer….

His qualifications for appointment to the post of Minister of National Defence????

ZERO NADA ZILCH!!

Appointed to the position of Minister of National Defence by of course Paul Martin….you remember Paul….

Once the Minister of Finance and sat on Treasury Board but didn’t know a durn thing about three hundred million dollars going into the pockets of Ad men (Sponsorship Scandal….AdScam)

Makes perfect sense that as Prime Minister he’d appoint someone with absolutely no qualifications and no experience in National Defence to manage that portfolio….

Just ask him….

Things around Ottawa and in particular inside the offices of the Government of Canada “just happen….” Just like Paul couldn’t possibly know anything about hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars going bye bye… What’s so difficult to fathom in appointing a rich legal hound that doesn’t know squat about Defense to the position of Minister of National Defense???

Sure is a good thing that Canadians are in such good hands……

NEWS FLASH: Canada’s government is a JOKE!

A joke that’s costing taxpayers millions in waste and corruption and of course in the hands of folk like Paul Martin and Bill Graham…who both are quite certain one not really need have any knowledge or understanding about the job….Hell no ….Just spend money…..