Brother Infidel Castro?
- Thread starter Kreskin
- Start date
I'm not a fan of Castro, but I'm also not a fan of Bush so *shrugs* Though I've always thought the Cuban revolution was rightful, if not misguided at the end with the Americans pushing Castro to the soviets and then Castro pretty much eliminating Che Constructively.
Anyhow my view on Cuba is much like China.
The Communist party before or after Castro is gone has to see that the good old days are over and become apart of the democratic process. Firstly split the party into at least two factions or even three, a socialist faction with closer ties to the old party, a social democratic faction of the centre left which is willing to make liberal economic and democratic reforms slowly and possibly a liberal or conservative faction with a heavy reliance on ppl who were not in the communist party. figure out a power sharing formula untill elections can be held and aggreed on what type of elections you will have, who has what powers and so on and so forth.
and well in the end have those elections.
Thats the only way you can have a non-violant transition of power and it benifits almost everyone including, soft marxist socialists which are in the party. The only people who may have the problem with it might be Stalinists and some party burocrats who would lose their job with any type of reform, economic or political.
Castro himself worries about socialism dieing in Cuba once he dies, and really orthadox marxism has been dead for a long time and is already dead even now in Cuba. The only way to hope for it to have any success in a post Castro Cuba is to be apart of the solution and not the problem.
Currently the best working concept of what I have said is the Mongolian government during the late 80's to the present time, used this way of change. Currently the former communist party their has enjoyed much democratic success and has embrassed economic realitties and have forsaken those of Marxism for a moderate social democracy or Liberal democracy has some would say.
Anyhow my view on Cuba is much like China.
The Communist party before or after Castro is gone has to see that the good old days are over and become apart of the democratic process. Firstly split the party into at least two factions or even three, a socialist faction with closer ties to the old party, a social democratic faction of the centre left which is willing to make liberal economic and democratic reforms slowly and possibly a liberal or conservative faction with a heavy reliance on ppl who were not in the communist party. figure out a power sharing formula untill elections can be held and aggreed on what type of elections you will have, who has what powers and so on and so forth.
and well in the end have those elections.
Thats the only way you can have a non-violant transition of power and it benifits almost everyone including, soft marxist socialists which are in the party. The only people who may have the problem with it might be Stalinists and some party burocrats who would lose their job with any type of reform, economic or political.
Castro himself worries about socialism dieing in Cuba once he dies, and really orthadox marxism has been dead for a long time and is already dead even now in Cuba. The only way to hope for it to have any success in a post Castro Cuba is to be apart of the solution and not the problem.
Currently the best working concept of what I have said is the Mongolian government during the late 80's to the present time, used this way of change. Currently the former communist party their has enjoyed much democratic success and has embrassed economic realitties and have forsaken those of Marxism for a moderate social democracy or Liberal democracy has some would say.
Has anyone out there ever been to the real Cuba? I don't mean Varadero or the other tourist areas. I spent 2 weeks im Matanza which is about 40 miles from Varadero. It might as well been 400 miles away. Some people were quite happy,mostly the ones with gov't positions.Most people were miserable and detest Castro.If Cuba is such a socialist paradise then why do hundreds of people risk thier lives every year trying to escape.
Re: RE: Brother Infidel Castro?
Havana for a month.. Was alright... Pot holes are killers.... and I mean it... you fall down one and nobody... I mean nobody will ever find you again.
I also think the beer there tastes like crap.
Communist party HQ's are guarded by members.. They were not nice to me at all.
The people were great.
Police were nice
Military people were very friendly.
Had one guy bug me for money
one hocker try to get me.. (they be aggressive)
Oh and I prefer the black market taxies compaired to the government approved ones. Black market is 100 times cheaper.
wallyj said:
Havana for a month.. Was alright... Pot holes are killers.... and I mean it... you fall down one and nobody... I mean nobody will ever find you again.
I also think the beer there tastes like crap.
Communist party HQ's are guarded by members.. They were not nice to me at all.
The people were great.
Police were nice
Military people were very friendly.
Had one guy bug me for money
one hocker try to get me.. (they be aggressive)
Oh and I prefer the black market taxies compaired to the government approved ones. Black market is 100 times cheaper.
It's far from being a "socialist paradice" but what it was before the revolution was just as bad if not worse. An American British supported dicatatorship!
Hundreds of people leave Cuba for the roads paved with gold in America just for the same reasons people leave protugal, spain, every nation in the world. Because they have bought into the mostly bullshit american dream that almost every american is a millionaire, and if you go there you will get your million. Because capitalism makes everyone rich.
Do I like Castro, no, do I like communism, no, but do I buy all of the american propaganda. Nope. Do i think Cuba needs to become a Democracy, yes. Does the USA have the ability to do this... look at Iraq and Afcan... I don't think they should touch Cuba.
Hundreds of people leave Cuba for the roads paved with gold in America just for the same reasons people leave protugal, spain, every nation in the world. Because they have bought into the mostly bullshit american dream that almost every american is a millionaire, and if you go there you will get your million. Because capitalism makes everyone rich.
Do I like Castro, no, do I like communism, no, but do I buy all of the american propaganda. Nope. Do i think Cuba needs to become a Democracy, yes. Does the USA have the ability to do this... look at Iraq and Afcan... I don't think they should touch Cuba.
Interesting take on Cuba Finder. Aside from your usual exaggerations you mind explaining to me how Batista was "worse" than Castro. I have yet to here a self-proclaimed leftist backup this claim other than just making the statement.
To my knowledge, Batista was supported by all the labor organizations and even the communist party. Cuba had an economic growth beyond belief. He even implemented minimum wage, something big business was against. And his coup was bloodless, contrary to the benevolent Castro.
So please, do tell.
To my knowledge, Batista was supported by all the labor organizations and even the communist party. Cuba had an economic growth beyond belief. He even implemented minimum wage, something big business was against. And his coup was bloodless, contrary to the benevolent Castro.
So please, do tell.
I have to clarify my above post.Yes there was some very good people. In fact most were extremely pleasant,when I wrote they were miserable I meant that they were quite unhappy about thier living conditions. They learned to adapt with the intermittent water and electricity. Almost every house had a cistern on the roof that filled when the water was flowing to be used when it wasn't. very few people would speak out against Castro in public. On my first evening there I dined with a Cuban family,we had chicken. When the host left the room my friend told me that chicken was hard to obtain and I should politely decline seconds so one of the kids in the other room would get a treat,a piece of chicken. Yeah,the people are great but thier system really sucks.
Wallyj, your friend was a little incorrect, if you actually paid them for the meal (which I hope you did)
a salary in cuba is between 30 and 50 dollars per month (more if you are a member of a co-op.)
if you paid 5 dollars for your meal that works out to about 1 dollar for your food and maybe 50 cents for the beer.
A house which has hosted me charged 10 dollars for a lobster dinner with 3 drinks. They would have 20 or so guests in a night. while it was illegal each of them involved made about a half months wages every night. (including enterntainment staff at the hotel who brought them business, and a paid off police officer)
believe me their kids ate what ever they wanted.
a salary in cuba is between 30 and 50 dollars per month (more if you are a member of a co-op.)
if you paid 5 dollars for your meal that works out to about 1 dollar for your food and maybe 50 cents for the beer.
A house which has hosted me charged 10 dollars for a lobster dinner with 3 drinks. They would have 20 or so guests in a night. while it was illegal each of them involved made about a half months wages every night. (including enterntainment staff at the hotel who brought them business, and a paid off police officer)
believe me their kids ate what ever they wanted.
No,my friend was not a little incorrect.No.I did not pay for my meal.That would have been a great insult.We are talking about 2 different things. I was a guest at someone's house not an illegal restaurant.
okay I see, I thought you went to one of the "private" resturants.If you ever go back I HIGHLY suggest it.
The lobster was the size of a football.
Re: RE: Brother Infidel Castro?
[quote="wallyj]If Cuba is such a socialist paradise then why do hundreds of people risk thier lives every year trying to escape.[/quote]
Misconception #1 : ANYONE is free to leave Cuba. The U.S. sets a quota on how many can come which makes it appear that they are escaping Cuba, but rather they are trying to BREAK into the U.S.
Are illegal Mexicans "escaping" Mexico, or are they simply trying to get in the States?
So again, there is no such thing as escaping a country you are free to leave from. I REPEAT, there is no such thing as escaping Cuba. Hope this clears it up for every American who has been duped into believing this. This proves further that it is easy to prove that people hate Castro and don't even know why > Can you say U.S. propaganda?
[quote="wallyj]If Cuba is such a socialist paradise then why do hundreds of people risk thier lives every year trying to escape.[/quote]
Misconception #1 : ANYONE is free to leave Cuba. The U.S. sets a quota on how many can come which makes it appear that they are escaping Cuba, but rather they are trying to BREAK into the U.S.
Are illegal Mexicans "escaping" Mexico, or are they simply trying to get in the States?
So again, there is no such thing as escaping a country you are free to leave from. I REPEAT, there is no such thing as escaping Cuba. Hope this clears it up for every American who has been duped into believing this. This proves further that it is easy to prove that people hate Castro and don't even know why > Can you say U.S. propaganda?
I think not said:
Plus he ridged elections and promoted every military man in the nation one rank and gave them new boots to keep power. Give me a break Batista was a sad dictator just as bad or worse then Castro.
I'll give Castro this; the Americans pushed him to the Communist Camp. Yes the Communist Party and Communist factions supported the revolution but the Americans radicalized the revolution when they got scared of socialization of markets in Cuba and thus would not deal with Castro who wanted to trade and deal with the USA, forcing him in the arms of the Soviet Union. Castro is quoted in saying that his biggest mistake was allying with the "socialist" camp (as in the Eastern bloc) so closely.
I think the only way socialism will outlive Castro in Cuba is to do what the Mongolian party and some other parties have copied since. (BTW this is my solution for China as well, politically, but for Cuba it would be easier as it is a smaller nation. The only problem being is with Cuba unlike China they will need more economic reforms as well.)
Edit:
When i was in Cuba, the average Cuban made about 20 american a month from their government job. In which they didn't work long hours and they only worked a few days a week. Almost every cuban I talkedwith had a second job either with the government or private in which they would make a little more. Also note Cubans have their own government shopping centres were everything is super cheap. Can of their type of coke was about 5-10 cents, and other foods super cheap.
The Cuban family I was staying with their, one of them got a ticket from a police officer while I was their for driving down a one way street. The ticket was for 5 cents. He got out of it on a side note because of me for some reason. *shrugs*
Also a bus faire while I was there was about 5 cents, next to nothing.
I guess you could say this is typical of a marxist socialist economy that your paid next to nothing but most things don't cost very much.
Most Cubans didn't have what we have however. Unless you had a big family you usually either had one or two of the follow items. Fridge, Colour TV, playstation, freezer, a/c. I didn't meat one person with all of those things. These items were very expensive for the average Cuban and really hard for them to get.
Another side note I forgot to mention. Many Cubans expressed themselves to me that they didn't care too much about politics, some wanted to explain there odd system of government to me and their form of elections (local elections). But really I've studied it in Canada and it makes little sence to me now even in theory. Some Cubans saw themselfs as socialists, but many more saw themselves as Humanists. I stayed next to a man who was openly gay and besides some ppl having a problem with him he was not persicuted. One of the most modern buildings and interesting buildings in Havana was the former Soviet embassey. It looked like a fortress if memory serves me right.
I think the thing which surprised me most about Cuba was how nice most people were and how open they were and how much they loved to party. Though I know the government is politically repressive and I do not doubt that the people are socially open as well as those in the police and the military. The only people who were not open while I was there unless I was in a confrance, was the Communist party officers. The people at these offices were pretty hostile and not friendly. The communist party members who mean anything I had met, were generally alright but really I didn't like them at all. The ranken file party members I'd met out in the city were fine happy people.
blah. That was my Cuban xp.
Oh maybe I'll write about my visit to a Cuban hospital sometime?