Bilingual Nation

[Machjo]

By the way, there's even research that shows that Esperanto can help to learn other languages too. Just look up 'propedeutic value of esperanto' in Google.

In this way, it might even kill two birds with one stone. Those who have difficulty learning English could learn Esperanto first, as a springboard to English later. So trilingualism then.

 

[McDonald]

Look, you know as well as I that contracts are draughted up by lawyers, who are highly educated individuals. They can also be translated by translators, no sweat. The general population does not deal in such things, and bilingualism makes sure that both linguistic communities in Canada can communicate with the government and with essential services in thier own language. That is a fundamental right, and in order to work in the government, one ought to be functionally bilingual. As far as classes in schools, they are like any other subject and just as we require math, we require classes in core French or English. Having basic English/French IS a skill just like basic math. Your average person will need to use it one day. Just because someone goes to high school in Vancouver, doesn't mean he's going to stay there his whole life. By the way, I have met more people than I can count on my two hands from Vancouver and Victoria who can speak French quite well and will be more than functional in their lifetimes, easily able to profess bilingualism for employment purposes.

This business of Esperanto in the government, I don't see it happening. We already have a country full of people who can speak French and English (one, the other, and sometimes both), and it works well. How many people do speak Esperanto? 100,000-2mil. Probably somewhere nearer to a few hundred thousand. How many people speak French either as a native or second language: 300,000,000 app. and English: native app. 380 million, second: app. 600,000,000. So between our two official languages that makes about 1.28 BILLION people. We are extremely lucky, and the resources are there for those who wish to be bilingual. Where I think the state is lacking is that they are not being tough enough on the issue. If you're Franco, English needs to be stressed in school, and vice versa. And we also need to encourage cultural participation. My high school French teacher had all kinds of activities, like French movie night for example (and this was in the US, where there are not Francophone television channels and radio stations). The curriculaum needs to be spit-polished an and the discipline increased. Students need to be encouraged to engage in cultural exchange, pen pals etc... Right now French is treated just like any other subject in school, boring old school. The cleaning up of the second language education in the country needs to be but one feature of the reworking of the entire education system, which I am sure even you will agree, needs a lot of improvement.

And that's quite a spread you got there for Esperanto (what with Cuban Radio AND the Vatican), but go talk to the CEO of any major company and ask him if he speaks it, or go to international courts, or the UN, or the EU etc... I'm not saying some sort of artificial IAL isn't an interesting idea, but making it policy in Canada would be a farce at this pointe, IMO.

As long as we have two official languages in Canada, and two linguistic communities as founding nations, both languages must be taught in schools. That's only logical. What's lacking is quality in the education system, but that doesn't mean we have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. And what, btw, is so impossible about learning French? Here in Chicoutimi, people come year round to be immersed in French. I have known dozens of people who came here not speaking a word but left able to communicate very well after only five weeks. Imagine if they had actually studied French seriously before getting here...

 

[Johnnny]

Well according to some in this forum your failure is due to your lack of effort. And please don't come here saying this; some would rather ignore the truth.

i didnt want to learn french when i was a young child cause i wasnt interested. Now iam interested in learning french so iam learning french. Thats not my lack of effort. You dont know **** about me and have no right in assuming i failed in something.

And well according to whoever you talk to i dont give a **** what anyone thinks. Ill say whatever i want to whoever i want.

i dont care care how important esperanto is ill learn whatever the **** i want.

ANd please dont come here saying that i cant say what i please. Go **** yourself its a free speaking country.

So ill say it again, im making an honest attempt to learn french.

 

[Johnnny]

As long as we have two official languages in Canada, and two linguistic communities as founding nations, both languages must be taught in schools. That's only logical.

what about a third language such as one of the native languages like cree? They may have not been founders but they were here first

 

[Machjo]

i didnt want to learn french when i was a young child cause i wasnt interested. Now iam interested in learning french so iam learning french. Thats not my lack of effort. You dont know **** about me and have no right in assuming i failed in something.

And well according to whoever you talk to i dont give a **** what anyone thinks. Ill say whatever i want to whoever i want.

i dont care care how important esperanto is ill learn whatever the **** i want.

ANd please dont come here saying that i cant say what i please. Go **** yourself its a free speaking country.

So ill say it again, im making an honest attempt to learn french.

Hmmm.... perhaps you should learn English first... or at least read the threads more carefully. Had you read this thread more carefully you would have seen that my comment, while directed at you on the surface, was actually a sarcastic rebuttle to others in this thread. You would have seen that duperficiality aside, that comment was not even directed at you.

 

[Machjo]

what about a third language such as one of the native languages like cree? They may have not been founders but they were here first

Three languages is quite a bit to juggle. Then again, an easy commonly-agreed-upon auxiliary language to be taught as a second language in all schools could then free people to choose to learn less-spoken languages. ANd of course those who can handle three languages or even four ought to be encouraged to go for it.

 

[Machjo]

Look, you know as well as I that contracts are draughted up by lawyers, who are highly educated individuals.

Not always.

They can also be translated by translators, no sweat.

For a price. Is communication to be a privilege reserved for the elites, or a basic fundamental human right.

The general population does not deal in such things,

I do, and I would consider myself as part of the general public.

and bilingualism makes sure that both linguistic communities in Canada can communicate with the government and with essential services in thier own language.

At considerable cost to the taxpayer.

That is a fundamental right, and in order to work in the government, one ought to be functionally bilingual.

This also causes resentment among non-English-French bilinguals who can't learn both languages well.

As far as classes in schools, they are like any other subject and just as we require math, we require classes in core French or English. Having basic English/French IS a skill just like basic math. Your average person will need to use it one day.

Why only French and English? I used to do translation from French to English in Quebec many years ago; here in China I'm losing my French. I'm sure I could polish it up again within a short time, say no more than three months with a grammar and dictionary. But now what is useful to me is Chinese, not French. So why burden a Vancouverite with French lessons if he may well come to China? Make it optional for those students who will go to Quebec. The world is much smaller than just Canada today.

Just because someone goes to high school in Vancouver, doesn't mean he's going to stay there his whole life.

I'd gone to French-medium school in elementary in Ottawa, then Victoria. And I'd worked in BC, Alberta, Quebec and Ontario. And now I'm in China. So believe me, I know.

By the way, I have met more people than I can count on my two hands from Vancouver and Victoria who can speak French quite well and will be more than functional in their lifetimes, easily able to profess bilingualism for employment purposes.

I have too. But I still won't ignore or look down upon the rest who can't. Let's give them alternative options rather than relegate them to monolingual adulthood.


This business of Esperanto in the government, I don't see it happening.

I don't see it happening either. Right now, language is based on power-politics, with English dominant, French flexing muscle in Quebec, and Indian languages being quashed underfoot. Esperanto stands not a chance in such an environment. Then again, neither does any other minority language. It all gravitates towards the hegemon.

We already have a country full of people who can speak French and English (one, the other, and sometimes both), and it works well.

For us bilinguals, it does. My French allowed me travel and work across Canada. But again, just read quotes from monolinguals, and they don't always see things so rosy. It's working well for us bilinguals at their expense.

How many people do speak Esperanto? 100,000-2mil. Probably somewhere nearer to a few hundred thousand. How many people speak French either as a native or second language: 300,000,000 app. and English: native app. 380 million, second: app. 600,000,000. So between our two official languages that makes about 1.28 BILLION people.

Numbers don't make one bilingual. Plenty of Chinese in the world too, but that doesn't mean you personally can benefit from that. As for Esperanto, not many speak it, but then again even the slowest student could learn it to fluency by the end of highschool without having to spend any of his poor parents' money to travel. Don't forget, just as not all are bilingual, not all are rich. Some come from single-parent families, or unemployed parents, etc. So should the government make Englsih and French immersion free for all Canadians? Sure, you pay for it.

We are extremely lucky,

I fully agree. Those of us who can speak both languages are extremely lucky.


and the resources are there for those who wish to be bilingual.

Really? So if I'm a single mother with child in Vancouver and holding a full-time job and a part-time job, the government will pay me a salary and provide free French lessons if I want that? Proof please.

Where I think the state is lacking is that they are not being tough enough on the issue.

So wht do we do; reintroduce corporal punishment? And what about students with learning diffuculties, dislexics, those from broken homes, etc.? English spelling is a major hindrance to them. You are lucky in life, but please consider the others. I'm fluent in a few languages too, yet I'm still able to not forget those who cannot learn language for various reasons. And it is for them that I'm advocating this.

If you're Franco, English needs to be stressed in school, and vice versa. And we also need to encourage cultural participation. My high school French teacher had all kinds of activities, like French movie night for example (and this was in the US, where there are not Francophone television channels and radio stations). The curriculaum needs to be spit-polished an and the discipline increased. Students need to be encouraged to engage in cultural exchange, pen pals etc... Right now French is treated just like any other subject in school, boring old school. The cleaning up of the second language education in the country needs to be but one feature of the reworking of the entire education system, which I am sure even you will agree, needs a lot of improvement.

After forty years we still haven't gotten aroud to that yet? Wow! Let's wait another forty years, shall we? So what do we do? Spend more money for teacher training? Have we got the money? when we have so much poverty in our world?

And that's quite a spread you got there for Esperanto (what with Cuban Radio AND the Vatican), but go talk to the CEO of any major company and ask him if he speaks it, or go to international courts, or the UN, or the EU etc... I'm not saying some sort of artificial IAL isn't an interesting idea, but making it policy in Canada would be a farce at this pointe, IMO.

That's the problem. You are talking about CEO's; I'm talking about the average Joe.


As long as we have two official languages in Canada, and two linguistic communities as founding nations, both languages must be taught in schools.

Taught and acquired are two different things.


That's only logical. What's lacking is quality in the education system, but that doesn't mean we have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. And what, btw, is so impossible about learning French? Here in Chicoutimi, people come year round to be immersed in French.

Now that's an idea. Perhaps the ministry of educations of each province could cut a dea with Air Canada so that every student in the country woudl have the chance to immerse himself in the second official language for a year. And that money could be collected through donations. Give away! I'm cheering for ya. The kids will love it.

I have known dozens of people who came here not speaking a word but left able to communicate very well after only five weeks. Imagine if they had actually studied French seriously before getting here.

I couldn't speak a word of Chinese either, and now I can get aroud without much diffculty. Still rusty for higher level stuff though, but steady Eddy. But again, we can't pay a flight ticket for every student now can we? We need to consider economic reality, and not just look at the elites who have the time and money to elarn the language, but at everyone. Don't forget, we are a democracy, and so all citizens ought to be able to communicate with one another, including the poor single mother with two kids. And the immigrant who's busy learning one official language already. And the dislexic, etc.

 

[Johnnny]

Hmmm.... perhaps you should learn English first... or at least read the threads more carefully. Had you read this thread more carefully you would have seen that my comment, while directed at you on the surface, was actually a sarcastic rebuttle to others in this thread. You would have seen that duperficiality aside, that comment was not even directed at you.

please dont direct anything at me on the surface, on a previus post i said i didnt read ther majority of the thread. To be honest i dont need to refresh my english cause i dont read into sarcam very well. Sorry for exploding on you but please dont do it again

:canada:

 

[Johnnny]

Three languages is quite a bit to juggle. Then again, an easy commonly-agreed-upon auxiliary language to be taught as a second language in all schools could then free people to choose to learn less-spoken languages. ANd of course those who can handle three languages or even four ought to be encouraged to go for it.

I know some people coming out of high chool that know english-french-spanish but i dont understand the spanish part why not something like cree? The unemployment rate of natives is like 27% im sure there are some natives who would love to teach cree to the children. And at the same time lower there unmployment rate. I dunno but i dont think spanish is as canadian as cree.

 

[Machjo]

I know some people coming out of high chool that know english-french-spanish but i dont understand the spanish part why not something like cree? The unemployment rate of natives is like 27% im sure there are some natives who would love to teach cree to the children. And at the same time lower there unmployment rate. I dunno but i dont think spanish is as canadian as cree.

I understand, but with the current power-political policy of French and English, where is the student supposed to find the time to learn Cree? Now with an agreed-upon auxiliary language, a student could choose to learn Cree and that language first. And for the more academically inclined, French and/or English too.

In reality though, seeing hos most of Canada already speaks either French or English, I'm sure Crees could learn at least one of those language no problem due to natural immersion inthe community. So this would essentially make them trilingual in French or English, plus Cree plus the common Canadian language, whatever that may be. So if let's say he knows Cree, English and the auxlang, then he could communicate with another who knows, let's say, Inuktitut, French and the auxlang, via the auxlang. Yet since th eauxlang would be designed to be easy to learn, they ought to be able to use it at an advanced level even after spening only a hundred hours at it.

Such a policy would be difficult under the current system. If he knows French, and wants to learn Cree and English, English alone might take up all his time if he's not academically inclined. Same might apply if he speaks French and wants to learn Cree and English.

 

[Machjo]

Oh, and as for the Spanish part, it's all about money. Many students don't learn language for culture anymore; it's all about money. That has got to change if we want to avoid a society of linguistic haves and have nots. To ensure everyone can participate in the democratic process, and now as global citizens, even your average Joe Smith has to be able to learn a second language. The only way to ensure all can participate is with an easy second language, so that then people will not just look at money anymore when learning their third language.

I chose to learn Esperanto, and now Chinese, Arabic and Persian (Arabic and Persian when I have time), not for money, but out of pure interest and a desire to read their literature in future. Unfortunately, most students now just look at money, and that's why Cree stands not a chance against Spanish in the current materialist education system.