Behold the results of 'downsizing'

peapod

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Canadian philosopher Ursula Franklin uses a series of questions to test the worthiness of public policies. One of them is "Does it maximize gain or minimize disaster?" Nothing in recent memory serves to highlight this question as much as the events that unfolded last week in New Orleans. Deregulated coastal development, massive funding cuts to disaster response, and political cronyism allowed for maximum private gain at the price of an unprecedented public disaster.

From thetyee.ca
 

Jo Canadian

Council Member
Mar 15, 2005
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damngrumpy

Executive Branch Member
Mar 16, 2005
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There are many shortcomings connected to government in the wake of the New Orleans disaster, but the shoot to kill order was not one of them. People looting food was not a problem, and the Guard didn't take action against those who were hungry. However those stealing from homes, and businesses, items that were not required for survival, deserved a bullet.
Yes the whole conservative agenda can now be called into question.
When people needed assistance it wasn't there, too little too late
or not at all was the response. It should also be noted that those employed, looking after the elderly and ill, in some cases did not do their job, some left those folks to die while saving themselves, one third of the police force ran out on those the swore to protect.
The emergeny units were pooring trained as they should have removed the poor from the area, before the storm and not tried to rescue them later. Everyone could see the long lines of the economically advantaged leaving inland for higher ground, while the poor were left to die for lack of transportation.
Its a case of right wing Christian hypocracy, they are so strong on protecting the live's of those unborn, but they willingly abandoned the poor, to die in the eye of the storm.
People are beginning to see just how, bad the conservative agenda is, as race and class distinction played a major role in who lived and died in New Orleans.
 

Said1

Hubba Hubba
Apr 18, 2005
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damngrumpy said:
There are many shortcomings connected to government in the wake of the New Orleans disaster, but the shoot to kill order was not one of them. People looting food was not a problem, and the Guard didn't take action against those who were hungry. However those stealing from homes, and businesses, items that were not required for survival, deserved a bullet.
Yes the whole conservative agenda can now be called into question.
When people needed assistance it wasn't there, too little too late
or not at all was the response. It should also be noted that those employed, looking after the elderly and ill, in some cases did not do their job, some left those folks to die while saving themselves, one third of the police force ran out on those the swore to protect.
The emergeny units were pooring trained as they should have removed the poor from the area, before the storm and not tried to rescue them later. Everyone could see the long lines of the economically advantaged leaving inland for higher ground, while the poor were left to die for lack of transportation.
Its a case of right wing Christian hypocracy, they are so strong on protecting the live's of those unborn, but they willingly abandoned the poor, to die in the eye of the storm.
People are beginning to see just how, bad the conservative agenda is, as race and class distinction played a major role in who lived and died in New Orleans.

Yep, Governor Blanco, Nagin and the city's emergency staff are a bunch of useless boobs.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
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RE: Behold the results of

Don't forget Bush and his oily little buddies in that statement, Said.

Issuing shoot to kill orders without the stipulation that it be only in self defense or the defense of others is legalising murder, Grumpy. Look at that kid the cops murdered in England. What was his crime again? Oh yeah...having dark skin.

I don't give a flying feck if they have every TV and stereo in Wal-Mart in the back of a truck. Theft is not a capital offense. Not even in George Bush's Amerika.
 

damngrumpy

Executive Branch Member
Mar 16, 2005
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Reverend, I am not all that concerned about Wal Marts TV set either, but many of these folks were stealing from the homes of victims, and they deserve what they get.
I some cases, the words of Bugsie Segal ring true, "Nobody got killed, what didn't need killin"
roaming gangs with guns robbing old people who are victims, already deserve what they get, people who are taking what they need to feed cloth and look after families that government abandoned, are a different matter. Unfortunately the government officials that didn't do their jobs will never be held accountable.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
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RE: Behold the results of

If those old people aren't in danger of being killed, then the police, the National Guard, or even the ghost of John Wayne, have no right to shoot them.
 

Vanni Fucci

Senate Member
Dec 26, 2004
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I have a bit of a problem with the shoot to kill order for looters...

For one thing, even if they are breaking into peoples' homes and stealing their stuff, what do the thieves hope to gain? They are still up to their ass in toxic waste, and are probably going to die of a hundred different diseases...so what's the rush? It's not like they'll be able to use that shiny new toaster, what with the power being out and if they are stealing jewelry or such, to whom do they think they can sell this swag? That they are arming themselves is indeed disconcerting, but then if the US had proper regulations as to the storage of firearms, then that wouldn't be an issue.

Ok, this rant has turned out to be far more disjointed than it appeared in my head...

My point here, despite the incoherent ramblings evidenced above, would be that giving a shoot to kill order to 60,000 people has the potential for exactly 60,000 single points of failure...which will inevitably lead to the deaths of innocents...
 

Martin Le Acadien

Electoral Member
Sep 29, 2004
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Vanni Fucci said:
I have a bit of a problem with the shoot to kill order for looters......

See my post about the gangs of New Orleans, they control the turf around the Housing Projects there and went on a rampage when the police hold up for the storm, and then the gangbangers got into the downtown armory and helped themselves to some firepower! The Eight gangbangers who fired upon Police and national guard at the Danziger Bridge found out that we Louisianais have a very low tolerance for this type of BS! Five died of lead induced stupity and the rest will be wards of the Federal Government for a long time! Not much sympathy down here for the gangbangers!

Vanni Fucci said:
For one thing, even if they are breaking into peoples' homes and stealing their stuff, what do the thieves hope to gain? They are still up to their ass in toxic waste, and are probably going to die of a hundred different diseases...so what's the rush? It's not like they'll be able to use that shiny new toaster, what with the power being out and if they are stealing jewelry or such, to whom do they think they can sell this swag? That they are arming themselves is indeed disconcerting, but then if the US had proper regulations as to the storage of firearms, then that wouldn't be an issue....

They were shooting at relief vehicles, helicopters trying to rescue people, police and civilians, just being animals! For one thing, taking food and water is OK, but carting off TVs or Jewlry or useless BS is stupid, as far as the gun laws, we have laws on the gun storage but when a thief wants something, he is going to get it! A gun law doesn't stop a criminal and when the Armory is looted, with its steel locked doors, what chance do you think a gun cabinet has? The Guns are being recovered, Criminals caught and peace restored. I am on the ground here in SE Louisiana and we have Martial Law with National Guard troops around with a Curfew at dark! Mighty quiet.


Vanni Fucci said:
Ok, this rant has turned out to be far more disjointed than it appeared in my head...

My point here, despite the incoherent ramblings evidenced above, would be that giving a shoot to kill order to 60,000 people has the potential for exactly 60,000 single points of failure...which will inevitably lead to the deaths of innocents...

Right now, with order to keep on our streets, all is quiet, we know how to act! In fact our platoon of National Guard/Army is busy clearing out debris here, pulling vehicles out of the marsh and manning the broken traffic light. Point a gun at one of these guys and the response may be instant lead poisioning but without a gun in your hand pointing at something which you should not be pointing at in the first place, no worries mate. Most people have common sense, gangbangers do not.
 

Nascar_James

Council Member
Jun 6, 2005
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It appears that many here have problems with the recent shoot-to-kill orders during the looting, raping, shooting episodes in New Orleans.

Firstly, let me say that Martial Law was in effect there. Part of the law includes the "shoot-to-kill" clause. Secondly, the types of criminals that would fire weapons at rescue helicopters, subsequently forcing a temporary abandonment of the rescue attempt deserve the the full effect of the shoot to kill orders.
 

Vanni Fucci

Senate Member
Dec 26, 2004
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Nascar_James said:
It appears that many here have problems with the recent shoot-to-kill orders during the looting, raping, shooting episodes in New Orleans.

Firstly, let me say that Martial Law was in effect there. Part of the law includes the "shoot-to-kill" clause. Secondly, the types of criminals that would fire weapons at rescue helicopters, subsequently forcing a temporary abandonment of the rescue attempt deserve the the full effect of the shoot to kill orders.

Well I have more of a problem with you, but I'm not going to get into that right now...

James, please provide a link to the official National Guard website that explains the exact ROE that went along with the declaration of martial law and the shoot to kill order...thanks
 

Vanni Fucci

Senate Member
Dec 26, 2004
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Martin Le Acadien said:
Not much sympathy down here for the gangbangers!

No, I have no sympathy for them either, but it's the collateral damage that I'm worried about...

Martial Law, for whatever reason, always makes me nervous...

Martin Le Acadien said:
They were shooting at relief vehicles, helicopters trying to rescue people, police and civilians, just being animals! For one thing, taking food and water is OK, but carting off TVs or Jewlry or useless BS is stupid, as far as the gun laws, we have laws on the gun storage but when a thief wants something, he is going to get it! A gun law doesn't stop a criminal and when the Armory is looted, with its steel locked doors, what chance do you think a gun cabinet has? The Guns are being recovered, Criminals caught and peace restored. I am on the ground here in SE Louisiana and we have Martial Law with National Guard troops around with a Curfew at dark! Mighty quiet.

Well I guess that was my point all along, that these people looting peoples' homes are indeed stupider than Jupiter...

...and no, I hadn't read your report on the armoury being looted...but you point is well taken...


Martin Le Acadien said:
Most people have common sense, gangbangers do not.

I with you on that as well...let's just hope that John Wayne agrees with us... :wink:
 

Nascar_James

Council Member
Jun 6, 2005
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Vanni Fucci said:
Nascar_James said:
It appears that many here have problems with the recent shoot-to-kill orders during the looting, raping, shooting episodes in New Orleans.

Firstly, let me say that Martial Law was in effect there. Part of the law includes the "shoot-to-kill" clause. Secondly, the types of criminals that would fire weapons at rescue helicopters, subsequently forcing a temporary abandonment of the rescue attempt deserve the the full effect of the shoot to kill orders.

Well I have more of a problem with you, but I'm not going to get into that right now...

James, please provide a link to the official National Guard website that explains the exact ROE that went along with the declaration of martial law and the shoot to kill order...thanks

There are many news agencies/sites that have talked about this. Here is one ...

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWL083105lawless.1242410b.html
 

Vanni Fucci

Senate Member
Dec 26, 2004
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Nascar_James said:
Vanni Fucci said:
Nascar_James said:
It appears that many here have problems with the recent shoot-to-kill orders during the looting, raping, shooting episodes in New Orleans.

Firstly, let me say that Martial Law was in effect there. Part of the law includes the "shoot-to-kill" clause. Secondly, the types of criminals that would fire weapons at rescue helicopters, subsequently forcing a temporary abandonment of the rescue attempt deserve the the full effect of the shoot to kill orders.

Well I have more of a problem with you, but I'm not going to get into that right now...

James, please provide a link to the official National Guard website that explains the exact ROE that went along with the declaration of martial law and the shoot to kill order...thanks

There are many news agencies/sites that have talked about this. Here is one ...

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWL083105lawless.1242410b.html

Yes...but what are the Rules of Engagement that are part of any order authorizing force? Are they sanctioned to shoot on suspicion of looting, or possession of firearms, or are they to return fire if fired upon?

What are the exact orders?
 

no1important

Time Out
Jan 9, 2003
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RE: Behold the results of

For a western country and a so called free country and a so called democratic country, the US of A sure has a habit of taking away rights don't they? First with the bs at gitmo and now in N.O.

So basically "rights" only matter when it is conveinent for the government? Why do people in America put up with losing rights at a whim of a government official? To me the US was not built on this.
 

Nascar_James

Council Member
Jun 6, 2005
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Vanni Fucci said:
Nascar_James said:
Vanni Fucci said:
Nascar_James said:
It appears that many here have problems with the recent shoot-to-kill orders during the looting, raping, shooting episodes in New Orleans.

Firstly, let me say that Martial Law was in effect there. Part of the law includes the "shoot-to-kill" clause. Secondly, the types of criminals that would fire weapons at rescue helicopters, subsequently forcing a temporary abandonment of the rescue attempt deserve the the full effect of the shoot to kill orders.

Well I have more of a problem with you, but I'm not going to get into that right now...

James, please provide a link to the official National Guard website that explains the exact ROE that went along with the declaration of martial law and the shoot to kill order...thanks

There are many news agencies/sites that have talked about this. Here is one ...

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWL083105lawless.1242410b.html

Yes...but what are the Rules of Engagement that are part of any order authorizing force? Are they sanctioned to shoot on suspicion of looting, or possession of firearms, or are they to return fire if fired upon?

What are the exact orders?


Martial law means a military authority has taken control of the normal administration of justice. Martial law may be used in times of emergency, when the traditional infrastructure (police, fire, etc.) are incapable of meeting the demands of the crisis.

Martial law can be declared due to natural disasters, Stock Market crash, no electricity, riots, biological attack, .... anything leading to the breakdown of law and order.

The extent that martial law is imposed varies from nation to nation. In the United States, the 1866 Supreme Court ruling in Ex Parte Milligan limited martial law. This ruling bars the use of military tribunals on civilians, and that habeas corpus may only be temporarily suspended if civilian courts are forced closed. And even then, citizens may only be held without charges, and not tried. Constitutional rights and free speech may also be suspended.

In 1878, Congress passed the Posse Comitatus Act, which forbids military involvement in domestic law enforcement without congressional approval. The National Guard is an exception, since unless federalized, they are under the control of state governors

As to the Rules Of Engagement, it is up to the authority in charge (ex. the US National Guard) as to what the rules will be. However, if the situation is severe enough to declare Martail Law, then it is severe enough to authorize shoot-to-kill orders.
 

Martin Le Acadien

Electoral Member
Sep 29, 2004
454
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Nascar_James said:
Vanni Fucci said:
Nascar_James said:
It appears that many here have problems with the recent shoot-to-kill orders during the looting, raping, shooting episodes in New Orleans.

Firstly, let me say that Martial Law was in effect there. Part of the law includes the "shoot-to-kill" clause. Secondly, the types of criminals that would fire weapons at rescue helicopters, subsequently forcing a temporary abandonment of the rescue attempt deserve the the full effect of the shoot to kill orders.

Well I have more of a problem with you, but I'm not going to get into that right now...

James, please provide a link to the official National Guard website that explains the exact ROE that went along with the declaration of martial law and the shoot to kill order...thanks

There are many news agencies/sites that have talked about this. Here is one ...

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWL083105lawless.1242410b.html


wwl-tv STAYED ON THE AIR from Baton Rouge alternate studios, the Radio station 870 AM is clear channel heard all over North America at night!
 

Said1

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Apr 18, 2005
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Re: RE: Behold the results of

Reverend Blair said:
Don't forget Bush and his oily little buddies in that statement, Said.

Issuing shoot to kill orders without the stipulation that it be only in self defense or the defense of others is legalising murder, Grumpy. Look at that kid the cops murdered in England. What was his crime again? Oh yeah...having dark skin.

I don't give a flying feck if they have every TV and stereo in Wal-Mart in the back of a truck. Theft is not a capital offense. Not even in George Bush's Amerika.

I don't recall reading anything about Bush's shoot to kill orders, nor did I see anything about either him or Blanco declaring Marial Law. There does however seem to be some for of temporary limited "version" of matial law, issued by the mayor in the city and said that "officers don't have to worry about civil rights and Miranda rights in stopping the looters."

Here's a link to the governor's office where all the press releases etc pertaining to the storm up to Sept 5 can be read: http://www.gov.state.la.us/workonkatrina .asp

I'm pretty sure the president and the governor do not have the authority to declare martial law in the city of New Orleans, unless it's called for the entire country or entire state. I'm no constitutional expert though, may want to do a goodle. :D

What does the police shooting in England have to do with Hurricane Katrina?