An Angle Straight to Hell.

[zenfisher]

My point is very relevent. You just don't like it. What is the point in sending people to school for 16 years if they are just going to be manipulated by a corrupt leader. Actually ...you can have a truly great leader be manipulated by the people he choses to help him lead. More food for thought. How is that different or better than it is now?

hmmm...you missed something...while the Soviet economy was falling apart...we also saw the Chinese economy improve. this was made possible by adopting many of the policies that western government employ. Granted both Western and Chinese economies are based on a slave wage relationship.

As far as corporate merging ...I believe I have already pointed this out. This is why it is important to have corporations monitored by citizen groups, businesses and the government.

Workers becoming unemployed is unfortunately a serious problem. It is not just mergers that cause this. In fact I would say a great deal of unemployment is caused by increasingly newer technologies. Here is where education really can help. Re-educating people to perform in new and emerging technologies.


Double Hmmmm... in an early post you claimed "true communisim was tested by the Druids, Celts, Egyptians and early man. Yet now you claim that it is untested by modern man. First of all which is it? If as you claim, earlier man( & I don't believe this to be true.) tried this ...Why do you think it isn't around today?

Don't you think that the competition for resources with animals and other tribes revealed this to be an inefficient system.

And I quote..." Meet the new boss ...same as the old boss."... Pete Townsend...thought for the day listen to some Who.

I still believe the best solution lies between the two systems.

 

[Gordon J Torture]

Double Hmmmm... in an early post you claimed "true communisim was tested by the Druids, Celts, Egyptians and early man. Yet now you claim that it is untested by modern man. First of all which is it?

What I said was:

The transition phase has been tested, and we can learn from those tests. True modern communism has not yet been achieved. Thus, your points are stereotypical and not valid.

I would hardly refer to civilizations from thousands of years ago as "modern"

Don't you think that the competition for resources with animals and other tribes revealed this to be an inefficient system.

Nothing lasts forever, including "democracy". By your own logic that proves it to also be "inefficient".



And, the majority would be more difficult to manipulate if they were all educated, period.

You cleary do not wish to converse rationally.

 

[zenfisher]

That is why a true communist society has never existed.

Are you kidding me?

Some of the first discoveries in astronomy, mathematics, architecture etc, happened in communist societies that lasted for thousands of years until they were destroyed and conquered by power hungry morons using religion, greed and fear to convince masses of people to do their bidding. . What a about the Celtics, and the ancient druids? Even Certain eras of ancient Egypt.

They lived in harmony far longer the USA or Canada has even existed, and we are already falling apart.

None of the things any of you are saying have any facts to them.

That is what you said. This would certainly imply that communism was tried and successful. Yet we do not use the system because of conquest,greed, etc... You are also falling into the trap of assuming that people that existed thousands of years ago were less intelligent than they are now. I don't believe that for a second.

I never said democracy and capitalism were the best systems. I said of current systems I favoured them. Actually I said I prefered a hybrid of the two systems.

I don't understand why you think intelligence or a higher education has anything to do with the ability to be or not be manipulated. I used Einstein as an example because it is inarguable that he was intelligent, yet he was manipulated by the allies into assisting in creating the bomb. Something he regretted after he had finished.

Just because I will not be manipulated into agreeing with every word you can type on your keyboard, doesn't mean I'm irrational. It means you can't present your argument in manor that can defeat the thoughts that I bang out on the keyboard.

 

[Gordon J Torture]

Zen, I don't think at all that people thousands of years ago were less intelligent given their circumstances. Infact, I was implying the opposite. People had to be creative back then to survive, and creativity is the key to true "intelligence".

Yet now you claim that it is untested by modern man. First of all which is it?

Zen, I said modern communism has not been tested. Earlier I referred to examples of what I perceived as: much closer to "true communism" then anything that has been achieved in recent times. Regarding those examples, there may have been certain forms of "classes", (which you used as your argument against the possibility of "communism" regarding those examples). However, these apparent "classes" no way reflected a difference in quality of life. It was simply a matter of respect. Also, one could logically conclude based on facts we are aware of that certain tribes of "cavemen" lived in true communisms for thousands of years.

When I visit my parent's place of residence for example, I am in a "communism". In that house, it is a "communism", yet my father could be considered in that house to be in a "higher class" because he possesses more knowledge and is older, and thus is more useful overall. Anything that belongs to them, also belongs to me. It is still a communism, and he does not have any privileges or a superior quality of living in that house than I do. That is the way I was looking at those examples I used. We disagreed, and that I anticipated, but it is no longer relevant.

The manner in which I am currently "presenting my argument" has no relevance in this case regarding: "manipulating you into agreeing with every word I can type". Perhaps your reading skills have been impaired by extreme fatigue. Do not fret however, It happens to the best of us. I was being polite when I suggested that perhaps there are misunderstandings on both ends here, and that a discussion in person would be superior. You replied saying: "I agree that to speak in person would be preferable. Although this forum does allow you to collect your thoughts and express them with clarity." I am definitely expressing my thoughts with as much clarity as possible in written form. Without the inflection of voice however, and the ability to respond immediately, points are often missed, forgotten, or misinterpreted. I say this because after I pointed out I am thinking in terms of society collectively, you continue to respond with individual examples that in no way represent, nor indicate a pattern or connection regarding any condition or effects on society collectively.

The way I am perceiving your argument is equivalent to one claiming: "About 1.0% of humans are able to bench press 300lbs the very first time they ever lift weights. In the case of an average person who only wishes to train so he can bench press 300lbs, he has no reason to weight train, because 1.0% of humans have bench pressed 300lbs the first time they lifted."

I just don't see how your obvious examples of rarities have any relevance regarding society collectively. Einstein was targeted out deliberately as a target for manipulation by people who actually knew his name. We do not know how much collective brain power it took to manipulate that one man.

The educated person is more likely to know about and recognize propaganda and manipulation than the uneducated person. The average uneducated person is just seen by our government as an emotional basket case, easy to influence one way or another. Thus, he is more often than not, forced into an impetuous state, whenever our government needs to create a massive group from which to cull partisan votes.

You seem to be attempting to win an argument just for the sake of arguing a certain perspective without really caring if your right or not. Much like a corrupt defense lawyer continuing to defend a suspect he knows is guilty.

Also, I am not trying to "manipulate" anyone. Infact the idea of myself manipulating anyone is a complete contradiction of all my beliefs. Furthermore, if one did succeed at manipulating you, it is unlikely you would be aware any time soon that you have been manipulated.

Zen, I never said people without educations are the only ones that get manipulated. Your entire argument is based on such an assumption. It is a simple fact, that on average, those without educations are easier to manipulate when it comes to politics, which is obviously what we are talking about, than those with. The majority of instances of my personal experiences seem to coincide with what statistics indicate. I am fortunate to be close to many people on opposite extreme ends of the scale. Some of those uneducated friends happen to be extremely knowledgeable in certain areas and surpass by far those with educations in those areas. However, when it comes to issues that effect the big picture, they are often clueless. The uneducated are much more likely to allow their emotions to make their decisions for them. They are much easier to become manipulated into agreeing with the most ridiculous and counterproductive things politically, without their greed being aroused. By appealing to greed, even the educated may easily become manipulated, however that is unlikely to occur in a true communism.

Just because I will not be manipulated into agreeing with every word you can type on your keyboard, doesn't mean I'm irrational. It means you can't present your argument in manor that can defeat the thoughts that I bang out on the keyboard.

Zen, there is no need here for derogatory epithets, even if they are partially concealed by subtlety.

Noone is going to win or lose, it's only about understanding one's main point and replying with relating opinions or facts. It is not hard to find proof that shows education levels a prominent element in partisan politics.

 

[Said1]

Are you guys trying to compare ancient eagletarian societies with communism?

 

[Gordon J Torture]

Said, I previously made a point regarding such things:

I basically said that a true "communist" society which has yet to exist in modern times, and a true egalitarian society are one in the same.

The entire point of "communism" is to end up an egalitarian society. A system based on the beliefs in equal political, economic, social, and civil rights for all people, a political paradise. Some of these acient civilizations appear to be the closest we have ever came to true egalitarianism.

The particular civilization we were discussing however, is only known through the bias documents of Roman encounters and from Irish lore.

 

[Said1]

Re: RE: An Angle Straight to Hell.

Said, I previously made a point regarding such things:

I basically said that a true "communist" society which has yet to exist in modern times, and a true egalitarian society are one in the same.

The entire point of "communism" is to end up an egalitarian society. A system based on the beliefs in equal political, economic, social, and civil rights for all people, a political paradise. Some of these acient civilizations appear to be the closest we have ever came to true egalitarianism.

The particular civilization we were discussing however, is only known through the bias documents of Roman encounters and from Irish lore.

That's what I thought, but you guys were all over the place, that can be hard to follow sometimes.

There are still tibes in Austraila, Africa and Amazonia that live this sort of life style, but encroaching civiliaztion is making it more and more difficult for them to remain self-sufficient. Even the rubber tappers are being driven out.

 

[zenfisher]

I have not insulted you once, not even a thinly veiled one. If you took it that way, I cannot help that. Your codescening attitude makes discussion with you very difficult. Good luck with trying to convince anyone that true communism is the path.

I am not even going down the path of the insults you have hurled at me. I really don't think it helps your argument. You seem incapable of conceding any point that disproves your belief. Good luck.I am through discussing it with you.

 

[Gordon J Torture]

I don't recall insulting you recently in this thead, however if you are referring to the "lawyer" comment, that wasn't an insult, just my perception.

That is fine with me if you are "done", we seem to end up arguing about everything else except what is actually relevent to the point.

 

[zenfisher]

The manner in which I am currently "presenting my argument" has no relevance in this case regarding: "manipulating you into agreeing with every word I can type". Perhaps your reading skills have been impaired by extreme fatigue. Do not fret however, It happens to the best of us. I was being polite when I suggested that perhaps there are misunderstandings on both ends here, and that a discussion in person would be superior. You replied saying: "I agree that to speak in person would be preferable. Although this forum does allow you to collect your thoughts and express them with clarity." I am definitely expressing my thoughts with as much clarity as possible in written form. Without the inflection of voice however, and the ability to respond immediately, points are often missed, forgotten, or misinterpreted. I say this because after I pointed out I am thinking in terms of society collectively, you continue to respond with individual examples that in no way represent, nor indicate a pattern or connection regarding any condition or effects on society collectively.

You seem to be attempting to win an argument just for the sake of arguing a certain perspective without really caring if your right or not. Much like a corrupt defense lawyer continuing to defend a suspect he knows is guilty.

Also, I am not trying to "manipulate" anyone. Infact the idea of myself manipulating anyone is a complete contradiction of all my beliefs. Furthermore, if one did succeed at manipulating you, it is unlikely you would be aware any time soon that you have been manipulated.

Just because I will not be manipulated into agreeing with every word you can type on your keyboard, doesn't mean I'm irrational. It means you can't present your argument in manor that can defeat the thoughts that I bang out on the keyboard.

Zen, there is no need here for derogatory epithets, even if they are partially concealed by subtlety.

I find these statements to be insulting...and this is just one post.

When I visit my parent's place of residence for example, I am in a "communism". In that house, it is a "communism", yet my father could be considered in that house to be in a "higher class" because he possesses more knowledge and is older, and thus is more useful overall. Anything that belongs to them, also belongs to me. It is still a communism, and he does not have any privileges or a superior quality of living in that house than I do. That is the way I was looking at those examples I used. We disagreed, and that I anticipated, but it is no longer relevant.

Proving that it can work with a small collective of people...not an entire society. However if I visitied your parents house, helped myself to the fridge, sat down on your Dad's favourite chair...decided that I liked his golf clubs...took them with me when I left..What do you think would happen? I'm betting your Dad would have me locked up by morning.

Your not looking at the individual arguments I've presented, and extrapolating how they would affect society overall. To maintain a modern society...Roads need to be built and maintained. Houses,buildings need to be constructed and kept up. Farms need to be worked. There has to be an infrastructure for manufacturing. Power grids have to be maintained. Waste has to be disposed of. Unlesss your willing to conscript or dictate to people...you will constantly find shortages of people to do the work. Once you start imposing what people must do, you lose your free society. That's the question you seem to consistently avoid answering.

 

[Gordon J Torture]

Hmmm.

 

[Gordon J Torture]

To maintain a modern society...Roads need to be built and maintained. Houses,buildings need to be constructed and kept up. Farms need to be worked. There has to be an infrastructure for manufacturing. Power grids have to be maintained. Waste has to be disposed of. Unlesss your willing to conscript or dictate to people...you will constantly find shortages of people to do the work

Actually, I already anwsered that. In many families, the men earn respect by working with their hands. Even with an education, they would still do so. Office workers and the like are considered "wimps" amungst their families. Also, getting a "PHD", as you mentioned several times, would require extra years of schooling. Not everyone desires a PHD even if it where free, especially when it will not lead to better pay.

People would be hired based much more on actual ability than currently, without individual circumstances leading up to that ability differing much between competitors for a position. Thus, it wil truly be a matter of the best of the best. Much like we PRETEND it is today.

 

[zenfisher]

So now your "equal" society consists of of an alternating ( at least ideally it would be alternating) governing class, Genius level & PHD's, a technical savy college intellectual base and general labourers. How do you cut up the pie? Seeing as no one would be working for a paycheck. Do you reward people that have more schooling ? Would the governing class have extra perks? Would you compensate the people doing the hard physical labour with a larger share?
How do you stop the brain drain? I get a free education in your country. What is to stop people from emigrating to another country where they will earn more than the state is willing to dole out? Are you going to force people to stay within your borders? Are you going to force them into a public service contract to offset the cost of their education?

Your setting up a society that is ripe with class divisions...which has always been the problem anyway.

 

[Gordon J Torture]

So now your "equal" society consists of of an alternating ( at least ideally it would be alternating) governing class, Genius level & PHD's, a technical savy college intellectual base and general labourers. How do you cut up the pie? Seeing as no one would be working for a paycheck. Do you reward people that have more schooling ? Would the governing class have extra perks? Would you compensate the people doing the hard physical labour with a larger share?
How do you stop the brain drain? I get a free education in your country. What is to stop people from emigrating to another country where they will earn more than the state is willing to dole out? Are you going to force people to stay within your borders? Are you going to force them into a public service contract to offset the cost of their education?

Your setting up a society that is ripe with class divisions...which has always been the problem anyway.

Class divisions that represent differentiating qualities of life have always been the problem. This problem however, does not exist in what I have proposed, nor do significant class divisions once so ever. There would be no significant difference in "class" between a person with what is currently called a"PHD" and a person with a "Bachelor's degree", who each live the exact same quality of life and earn the exact same wage as one another. In addition, the opportunity to aquire what is curriently called a "PHD", in no way detriments the possibility of creating a true egalitarian society. Basic "highschool" would go up to grade 16 which would be equivalent to what is now a bachelor's degree, and most "general labourers" would complete this new level of "highschool" just as most of them complete the current level of Highscool. Meticulous courses in politics would be required to complete in order to graduate. People with "more schooling" would be no different than anyone else. Also, maintaining excessive wealth upon immigration to the country would be made extremely difficult to acheive. The reward is the altruistic example we would be setting for humankind.

The reward is feeding those who starve, educating those who seek knowledege, and healing those who need healing. The reward is being an equal to those who are truly your equal. You see, that is my "religion". My "religion" is that I do not beleive in the labelling of religions, but only to study them all from a true historical perspective. I simply consider myself "a believer." I believe in logic. I believe in the Universe, and Honer, and Love, and Justice. I believe in forces science is not yet able to fully understand. I believe in the overall equality of all human beings, and that every individual's potential to contribute to society in one way or another is equal in both neccessity and importance, whether healthy or bedridden.

One with extra years of schooling and a "PHD" may not be able to fix his mother's car, or help his neighbour put up drywall, thus, he is not sure to be more usefull to society than anyone else. He would indeed earn a paycheck, but it would have the same number of digits than anyone else's. His reward would be the respect given to him by people seeking his services, and his observing those who benefit as a result of those services. The only positive recognition any one would receive would be a result of a selfess act to help another. Thus, the only "reward" most people would desire, would be the recognition received as a result of helping others attain equality and life.

How do you stop the brain drain? I get a free education in your country. What is to stop people from emigrating to another country where they will earn more than the state is willing to dole out?

Obviously there would have to be certain laws made to discourage people who have no intent to contribute to an egalitarian society from abusing the system. Furthermore, the effect that even one country establishing such a society would have internationally, would be exponential both directly and influentially. There is no way to be certain they would even be able to "earn more money in another country", and if they did, they certainly would not be living a superior quality of life in that other country because of it. If they expect to return to the country that gave them a free high level education after they used us as an attempt to place themselves at a "higher level" than their fellow man, everything they earned in that other country would be taken away from and donated to educational services. Unless however, they previously arranged for all their profits to be donated to the poor in another country. If one leaves our Country, they will return no richer, but no poorer either. There would be systems in place to allow people to make extra money only if it is for the purpose of donating to the poor in other countries. There would be severe penalties for people who abused that system.
Zen once stated:

You seem incapable of conceding any point that disproves your belief.

That is because you have yet to make a point that disproves any of my beliefs. One cannot concede that which does not exist.

Zen proclaimed several posts ago:

Good luck.I am through discussing it with you.

It seems he is not one who is true to his word.

 

[zenfisher]

Another cheap shot, gee ...that education is really working for you.You had stopped after I called you on your condescending attitude. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and that I was wrong about.

So now your free society is going to ensure your populace is forced to stay within your society until the individual pays back for forced education.

If you want to reneter the country you are born in you are forced to surrender anything you have earned on the outside. I can see a lot of dummy charities being set up...

Quiyte frankly I have made several points that have been unanswered, I suspect because because you have no answer to the very real possibilities I have presented.

 

[Gordon J Torture]

Quiyte frankly I have made several points that have been unanswered, I suspect because because you have no answer to the very real possibilities I have presented.

You may not see how the pieces of the puzzle fit, that does not mean your questions are unanswered. If you list them all one after the other, numbered and in short sentences, I will reply and that may make it easier for you to see my anwsers and for me to not miss any.

Also, pointing out a lie is not condescending at all.

It would be impossible to equal the corruption of the American government with any amount of "dummy charities" that may arise. Even with potential flaws, it's a far better system for society collectively than the greed inspired dictatorship of the bourgoisie you live in now.

I mean common man, you have mentioned "possibilities" that are not even half as bad or numerous as the realities that are occuring now. Nor are they even isolated to only the system I am proposing.

 

[zenfisher]

:roll: Whatever...show me the lie. Keeping in mind I explained that I thought you could refrain from insulting me...so I re-entered the debate..again, I admit I was wrong about that. Apparently you can't refrain from looking down your nose at others and taking a cheap shot at them. If you want a list go back and read what you wrote and how I responded.Then carefully type out your list.

 

[Gordon J Torture]

Ok Zen, I gave you a chance for all your "unanswered questions" to be answered in an organized fashion. You do not desire this however, so let this thread die we shall.

 

[zenfisher]

kay