Haditha Massacre charges dropped

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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I agree with Juan. This isn't about justice but damage control.

Forums like this one are useful. If it wasn't for Juan's post, I would not have known until years later how most the soldiers which committed the Haditha got away with it. I also would have thought that I was the only person aware that these soldiers got away with murder.

But because of forums like this one, the ability of our government and news to misinform and manipulate is reduced substantially. Thanks Juan and CC
 

Zzarchov

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Aug 28, 2006
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Its always a political cover up

Because soldiers truly do care about political bull****, with the exception that they don't that is.

If it was a cover up, then everyone would be off scott free. It isn't.
 

Just the Facts

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Hardly. Its been buried because people like JTF have selective outrage and short memories and because the US government is led by war criminals.

:lol: I didn't know I had so much influence.

Your article is a one-sided joke EAO. Read all the reports of what happened that day. It was a tragedy of war....not an atrocity. Civilians were killed because AGAIN "freedom fighters" had no scruples about using them as human shields.

The Americans may have been guilty of being quick on the trigger, but in light of the nature of that war (the nature dictated by the "freedom fighters") I don't blame them.

In the words of an Iraq vet I heard speaking on the topic, Marines who knock first are dead Marines.

There were combatants shooting from those houses. The houses were being cleared. Innocents were killed. That's war. War is not holy. Send a memo.

Talk about selective outrage and short memories.
 

JBeee

Time Out
Jun 1, 2007
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:lol: I didn't know I had so much influence.

Your article is a one-sided joke EAO. Read all the reports of what happened that day. It was a tragedy of war....not an atrocity. Civilians were killed because AGAIN "freedom fighters" had no scruples about using them as human shields.

The Americans may have been guilty of being quick on the trigger, but in light of the nature of that war (the nature dictated by the "freedom fighters") I don't blame them.

In the words of an Iraq vet I heard speaking on the topic, Marines who knock first are dead Marines.

There were combatants shooting from those houses. The houses were being cleared. Innocents were killed. That's war. War is not holy. Send a memo.

Talk about selective outrage and short memories.


Not to take away from this important subject but see that `laughing` icon at the first of this(your) post? I`ve been scolded by you along with warnings and demerit points from you for "shuddering" at another`s opinion and worse, banned by you for "stirring the pot" on another forum for pulling a guy`s leg on some stupid joke he posted.

Talk about selective outrage. And of course it had nothing to do with my political views, :roll:
 

Just the Facts

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Not to take away from this important subject but see that `laughing` icon at the first of this(your) post? I`ve been scolded by you along with warnings and demerit points from you for "shuddering" at another`s opinion and worse, banned by you for "stirring the pot" on another forum for pulling a guy`s leg on some stupid joke he posted.

Talk about selective outrage. And of course it had nothing to do with my political views, :roll:

:?: I think we have a case of mistaken identity. I may have scolded you :smile: (although I have no recollection of it, if I did I'msure it was justified :lol: ) but I've certainly never given any warnings or demerit points (whatever those are) and I've sure as heck never banned anyone. :?:
 

JBeee

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Jun 1, 2007
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:?: I think we have a case of mistaken identity. I may have scolded you :smile: (although I have no recollection of it, if I did I'msure it was justified :lol: ) but I've certainly never given any warnings or demerit points (whatever those are) and I've sure as heck never banned anyone. :?:


**** me!! My apologies for confusing you with another. Where is the god dam `embarassed` thingy/icon when you need em!:-?
 

earth_as_one

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Jan 5, 2006
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I said "people like you" JTF. The power of people like you comes from your vast numbers. A majority of people like JTF are easily manipulated. That's how war criminals like Bush get re-elected. Its why Harper will win a majority in this election. Its why soldiers the soldiers responsible for the Haditha can get away with murder. Selective outrage and short memories.
 

Just the Facts

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Oct 15, 2004
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I said "people like you" JTF. The power of people like you comes from your vast numbers. A majority of people like JTF are easily manipulated. That's how war criminals like Bush get re-elected. Its why Harper will win a majority in this election. Its why soldiers the soldiers responsible for the Haditha can get away with murder. Selective outrage and short memories.

:lol: You'll probably be SHOCKED, SHOCKED I tell you, to learn I voted Green Party last election. :lol:

You've obiously already made up your mind about what happened at Haditha. That's interesting, because I only have access to public information, and it's clear that it's not a cut and dry case. There is lots of controversy about just what really happened, and lots of holes in the original story. I don't have access to a magic crystal ball, and I wasn't there, so I'm in no position to make conclusions beyond what I read about it. And that's highly inconclusive.

Maybe more info will be released when all is said and done with the trials. We'll see.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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:lol: You'll probably be SHOCKED, SHOCKED I tell you, to learn I voted Green Party last election. :lol:

You've obiously already made up your mind about what happened at Haditha. That's interesting, because I only have access to public information, and it's clear that it's not a cut and dry case. There is lots of controversy about just what really happened, and lots of holes in the original story. I don't have access to a magic crystal ball, and I wasn't there, so I'm in no position to make conclusions beyond what I read about it. And that's highly inconclusive.

Maybe more info will be released when all is said and done with the trials. We'll see.

Judging from your willingness to believe the unbelievable, I am shocked that you would even claim to have voted green.

The US military has lied since the beginning about this incident and changed their story several times to fit the evidence. I find the final marine version difficult to believe.

Iraqi eye witness testimony has been consistent with the facts from the start and has not changed. Their version makes far more sense and explains why the marines have no evidence supporting their claims about being under fire and why they never found weapons in any of the homes. But the most damning evidence comes for a nine year old girl who survived the attack by hiding under her mother's body.

Link to evidence of massacre
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1200780,00.html?iid=sphere-inline-bottom

This BBC story has both versions of events

1) Marine Lance Corp Miguel Terrazas dies in attack on US convoy.
2) US military initially says bomb also killed 15 Iraqi civilians.
3) Eight insurgents killed after attacking convoy. US later says the 15 civilians were not killed by bomb, but shot accidentally in battle.





1) Marine Lance Corp Miguel Terrazas dies in bomb attack on convoy of four Humvees. Troops then "go on rampage".
2) At roadblock, four students and taxi driver killed.
3) Eight people killed in one of three houses.
4) Seven killed in a second house.
5) Four brothers put in wardrobe and shot dead in a third house.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5033648.stm
 

Zzarchov

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Aug 28, 2006
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I said "people like you" JTF. The power of people like you comes from your vast numbers. A majority of people like JTF are easily manipulated. That's how war criminals like Bush get re-elected. Its why Harper will win a majority in this election. Its why soldiers the soldiers responsible for the Haditha can get away with murder. Selective outrage and short memories.


Now putting aside whether you are right or wrong....

Can you not see the problem in that statement..


What proof do either sides have (not having been there) other than their personal opinions about how the world works and the nature of people to believe that they AREN'T being brainwashed.

I fully admit my knowledge of the world is a veritable wikipedia, I look at many sources but that doesn't mean any of them are right, or that the one unpopular viewpoint isn't the correct one.

How do you know YOU aren't the easily manipulated large group of people EAO?

As the numbers like JTF and you are about equal and it flips back and forth in the government.

Left Right Left Right
 

Just the Facts

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Oct 15, 2004
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The US military has lied since the beginning about this incident and changed their story several times to fit the evidence. I find the final marine version difficult to believe.

I'm not sure that's true. There was an initial erroneous report that 15 people were killed by the blast, which was explained as a communication error. The Marine reported to base that an IED had exploded and that there were 15 dead civilians. That was misinterpreted to mean 15 were killed by the blast.

I'm not aware of any other changes in story by the U.S. off hand. Maybe you can fil me in.

On the other hand, there are a lot of cedibility issues in the accusations.

http://sweetness-light.com/archive/marines-lawyers-question-haditha-tape-source

Also check out the other links from the bottom of that article.

Nothing is proven either way, but that's my point. The deeper you dig, the more this thing smells. Sure, the Marines likey were quick on the trigger, but the Iraqi's are exagerating what happened as much a spossible in order to milk it for all it's worth.

This is also a worthwhile read:

http://www.ladieslogic.com/2006/06/what-really-happened-in-haditha.html
 

JBeee

Time Out
Jun 1, 2007
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Now putting aside whether you are right or wrong....

Can you not see the problem in that statement..


What proof do either sides have (not having been there) other than their personal opinions about how the world works and the nature of people to believe that they AREN'T being brainwashed.

I fully admit my knowledge of the world is a veritable wikipedia, I look at many sources but that doesn't mean any of them are right, or that the one unpopular viewpoint isn't the correct one.

How do you know YOU aren't the easily manipulated large group of people EAO?

As the numbers like JTF and you are about equal and it flips back and forth in the government.

Left Right Left Right

`What proof do either sides have `......proof, since when has proof mattered in this cluster-**** of an invasion?
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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JTF, at least you posted some links to back up your case.

While they attack the credibility of someone claiming to be a journalism student because he is in his 40's, rather than his 20's, they don't attack the images he captured. The implication is that since this person is too old to be a student, his video evidence must be fake is a stretch. No doubt the person who took the photos is biased. But no one claims his photographic evidence is fake. I'm sure its been looked at closely. Any sign the images were doctored would have ben news.

The bodies in his video show no signs of shrapnel injuries which would be consistent with an explosion, but are full of bullet holes consistent with being shot and the listed cause of death on the official death certificates.

The original reports claimed the Iraqi casualties were killed by the roadside blast:

Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, June 4, 2006; A01


At 5 p.m. Nov. 19, near the end of one of the most violent days the Marine Corps had experienced in the Upper Euphrates Valley, a call went out for trucks to collect the bodies of 24 Iraqi civilians.

The unit that arrived in the farming town of Haditha found babies, women and children shot in the head and chest. An old man in a wheelchair had been shot nine times. A group of girls, ages 1 to 14, lay dead. Everyone had been killed by gunfire, according to death certificates issued later.

The next day, Capt. Jeffrey S. Pool, a Marine spokesman in Iraq, released a terse statement: Fifteen Iraqis "were killed yesterday from the blast of a roadside bomb in Haditha. Immediately after the bombing, gunmen attacked the convoy with small arms fire. Iraqi army soldiers and Marines returned fire, killing eight insurgents and wounding another."

Despite what Marine witnesses saw when they arrived, that official version has been allowed to stand for six months.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/03/AR2006060300710_pf.html

The second bolded part is a direct quote from the original communique. Seems like an attempt to blame the killings on the blast. Body exhumation is forbidden by Islamic law, so the photographic evidence and the death certificates are all the evidence of cause of death that exists.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1198977,00.html

BTW, where are the captured insurgent weapons? The marines claim they shot insurgents. Where are their weapons?

RE: Am I manipulated?
Probably to some degree we all are manipulated. Our opinions are based on what we know and most of us know dick. But people who come to this forum know more than most in general.

But in my defense I can honestly say I was against the Iraq war from the beginning, because I didn't see any evidence to support the justifications for war. Its been over 5 years and I still don't see any justification for war. Being against this war from the beginning is kind of a litmus test for me to judge how manipulated other people are. People who supported the war were either cruel and sadistic or misinformed.

I also remember posting on another forum at the time that if the US invaded Iraq the war would kill 100,000 civilians and no one outside of Iraq would notice.

I was wrong. The war has killed over a million civilians and no one outside of Iraq has noticed.

Haditha is one of many cases where soldiers comitted atrocities. But atrocities are committed on all sides now, so its not like one side has the moral high ground. Going door to door and slaughtering people has become common in Iraq. Hardly newsworthy.
 

Just the Facts

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Oct 15, 2004
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The implication is that since this person is too old to be a student, his video evidence must be fake

Actually there was a lot more to it than that. Keep reading.

The original reports claimed the Iraqi casualties were killed by the roadside blast:

That has been explained.

Body exhumation is forbidden by Islamic law

Apparently that's not clear. There are circumstances in which it is permissable to exhume bodies, one of them being in matters of life and death. I believe this would qualify as a matter of life and death.

, so the photographic evidence and the death certificates are all the evidence of cause of death that exists.

Exactly. Did you read about the death certificates? Cause of death - "bullet wound by a well aimed shot". Kinda strange thing to put in a death certificate, no? How does an autopsy differentiate between a "well aimed shot" and a random wound? Sure, if all the bodies had one shot between the eyes, it would be pretty much case closed. So why not exhume? If there were victims who were killed by a single shot between the eyes, would it not make sense to photograph the wound? It would be forensics 101, I would think.

BTW, where are the captured insurgent weapons? The marines claim they shot insurgents. Where are their weapons?

I believe they captured not only weapons but actual insurgents. I also recall reading that the men shot in the Taxi were later identified as known or suspected insurgents. Co-incidence?

I'm too tired to check those facts right now.

Darn you EAO, always making me learn stuff when I gotta work the next day!! :lol:

G'night.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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The sites you linked to JTF are not much different than this website. The authors there aren't much different than authors here. But their posts reference Reuters and other news sources which point out potential problems with this story. Mostly it has to do with the bias of the only people who documented this incident.

I have no doubt that the person who took the photos and the local doctor who signed the death certificates have strong anti-American feelings, as do a majority of Iraqis. But that doesn't mean these people lied or falsified records as the authors claim.

The main evidence remains the video and photos of the dead bodies and the death certificates which contradict the original reports files by the marines. I haven't seen the photos or the video, but everyone who has seen them says they show evidence of bullet wounds not shrapnel damage. Initially the marines claimed the civilians were killed in the blast. But when confronted with the evidence they changed their story to claim the were killed in the cross fire. But if they were killed in the cross fire, that doesn't explain the kicked down doors and bullets holes inside the house.

The charges were dropped because of a legal technicality, not because of any of the doubts expressed by the authors at your website. The evidence is overwhelming and bloggers can post what they want about it.
 

Just the Facts

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Oct 15, 2004
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The main evidence remains the video and photos of the dead bodies and the death certificates which contradict the original reports files by the marines.

Exactly. Video that wasn't released for a couple of months. If you had video of a massacre in your neighborhood, wouldn't you send it to police and Al Jazeera right away? Would you really pause to found your own Human Rights Organization first? And why would Time claim that the video was obtained from a journalism student by a Human Rights Organization, when the student and the Organization were one and the same.

And why wait until the next day to film? A journalism student, young or otherwise, waited until the next day to film a huge news story that occured literally on his doorstep?

Why wouldn't there be more detailed photos of the injuries? Doesn't anyone in Iraq watch CSI? Crime scene photo's are fundamental.

Why did this not make the news even in Haditha? It wasn't until the story broke months later that anyone paid any attention, even in Iraq.

There's also the painting of the situation like it happened in a vacuum....bomb goes off and Marines go berserk shooting civilians in their home. This was a firefight that lasted all day. The Marines WERE under fire and were in the midst of engaging the enemy.

I haven't concluded my research yet but check out about the drone the filmed the entire day....lots of insurgents and weapons, in answer to your previous question.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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JTF,

The delay was the US media picking up on the story. The November 19, 2005 Haditha massacre was reported as a massacre on November 20, 2005 by Arab media.

Al Jazeera
November 20, 2005

"In a statement, the US Army has said that a US Marine was killed when an explosive charge went off in the city of Hadithah. Additionally, eight gunmen were killed in clashes with the US troops. Sources in the city said that the US troops bombarded four houses, killing 31 Iraqis, and that many dead bodies are strewn on the streets. Meanwhile, the US Army statement said that 15 Iraqis were killed in an explosion that targeted a US patrol in the city."

[This is immediately followed by a live telephone interview with "journalist" Walid Khalid in Baghdad conducted by anchorperson Layla al-Shayib in the Doha studios. When queried about the Hadithah incidents, Khalid says: "Yesterday evening, an explosive charge went off under a US Marines vehicle in the Al-Subhani area, destroying it completely. Half an hour later, the US reaction was violent. US aircraft bombarded four houses near the scene of the incident, causing the immediate death of five Iraqis. Afterward, the US troops stormed three adjacent houses where three families were living near the scene of the explosion. Medical sources and eyewitnesses close to these families affirmed that the US troops, along with the Iraqi Army, executed 21 persons; that is, three families, including nine children and boys, seven women, and three elderly people.

"Furthermore, the US troops threw their dead bodies onto the street and in the courtyards of the houses. They also set the three houses on fire, destroying them completely. Then, the US troops opened fire on a vehicle in which five schoolchildren were travelling on their return trip from school. After the vehicle stopped, the US troops opened fire on the schoolchildren, causing the death toll to rise to 31 Iraqi civilians, not to mention 11 others who were wounded, and the arrest of 21 suspects near the scene of the incident. The city is now under stringent curfew. The US troops prevented the evacuation of those wounded or killed from the streets. Besides, an announcement aired through loudspeakers at noon today said that the residents of this area must evacuate it quickly."] - Al Jazeera, Qatar


http://dahrjamailiraq.com/mideastwire/index.php?id=26
The above was reported in Arabic the day after the massacre and the website referenced translates Arabic news to English. Like any breaking stories it has a few inaccuracies, but later stories over the following days more or less report what was later revealed in a video.

Initially the Western media had no interest in the story. It was just another massacre, one of many sad stories coming out of the Iraq. For four months the Western media reported only the official US military version of events, not the eye witness testimony or what was being reported in the Arab media.

That the US media didn't immediately broadcast this story as a massacre is hardly unusual or suspicious. In fact this story should make people question their perception of events in Iraq as reported by the western media.

The story broke in the western media when a Time reporter went to Haditha in January to investigate. That's when he met Thabet and obtained a copy of his video. It was the Time reporter who realized the implications of the video, not Thabet. Thabet's self description as a journalism student and links to Human Rights Watch was the equivalent of lying on your resume. In phone interviews people assumed he was young because of his self description. That Thabet would exagerate his credentials or allow people to believe he is young, daring and handsome doesn't prove his video was doctored.

Time regarding How they broke the story:
How Haditha Came to Light
By Jeffrey Kluger Sunday, Jun. 04, 2006

The Haditha killings occurred last November, but it wasn't until January that TIME first heard whispers about them. The initial account of the incident was published in March in the magazine and on TIME.com

The manner in which TIME got the story and the painstaking way the facts revealed themselves illustrate the challenges of trying to cover a dangerous, deadly conflict where the truth isn't always what it appears to be.

If the Marines are indeed guilty of an atrocity, they had the ill fortune to have committed their crime in the worst possible place: outside the front door of a budding Iraqi journalist and human-rights activist. Taher Thabet, 43, was at home in Haditha on the morning of Nov. 19 when around 7:15 he heard the detonation of the roadside bomb that struck a Marine humvee, killing the driver, Lance Corporal Miguel Terrazas, 20. The blast shattered Thabet's windows. He ran outside in time to see Marines from three other humvees springing from their vehicles and heading for four homes on either side of the road. "They went into one house. I heard gunfire, explosions and screams," he told TIME in an interview in Baghdad last month. "Then they came out and went into another. I could only stand and watch."

The next morning, Thabet--who last year co-founded a small outfit called the Hammurabi Organization for Human Rights and Democracy Monitoring--went into the houses where the killings had taken place and videotaped what he saw, as well as the wrenching scenes later at the local morgue, where friends and family collected the bodies of the victims. "I didn't know what I was recording," he says. "I just felt I had to record everything I could see."

Thabet shared the VCD with the other members of the Hammurabi group, but for a time, news of the killings did not go further than that. Then, in mid-December, President George W. Bush announced the military's estimate that 30,000 Iraqi civilians had died since the start of the war. TIME's Tim McGirk, posted in Baghdad, began to investigate cases in which Iraqi civilians had been killed by U.S. troops. In the course of his reporting, he obtained a copy of Thabet's VCD. There was plenty in the grisly images to raise suspicions, including the U.S.-issued body bags into which the victims were zipped and the scattering of shells that appeared to have come from Marine rifles.

McGirk contacted Marine headquarters in Ramadi to inquire about the incident. The Marines sent back an e-mail saying there were 15 civilian deaths in Haditha on Nov. 19 but that the victims were killed by the roadside bomb and by a firefight that erupted when insurgents fired on the Marines. But the videotape showed that many of the dead were pajama-clad women and children. The bodies had wounds from bullets, not shrapnel, and the scene suggested that they had been murdered inside their homes.

In the ensuing weeks, McGirk and TIME's Baghdad staff members interviewed more than a dozen Haditha locals by e-mail (travel between Baghdad and Haditha is exceedingly dangerous for Iraqis, let alone foreign journalists), including the mayor, the morgue doctor and a local lawyer who negotiated a settlement between the Marines and the families under which the military agreed to pay $2,500 compensation apiece for some of the victims--mostly the women and children. Several survivors visited TIME's Baghdad bureau, including a man in his 20s whose four brothers were killed and an orphaned girl who is now the sole caretaker of her 8-year-old brother. The bureau was also pursuing leads that a 12-year-old girl had survived the attack by playing dead. In interviews, Thabet filled in details about what he witnessed before he began shooting his VCD.

In early February, McGirk presented this evidence to, and asked for comment from, Lieut. Colonel Barry Johnson, U.S. military spokesman in Baghdad. Johnson viewed the VCD, listened to the accounts and responded straightforwardly, "I think there's enough here for a full and formal investigation." Army Colonel Gregory Watt was dispatched to Haditha to conduct a three-week probe in which he interviewed Marines, survivors and doctors at the morgue.

At that point, TIME's Aparisim Ghosh joined the efforts in Baghdad, asking the U.S. military for more information even as the preliminary investigation was continuing. Lacking any official U.S. response to the allegations, TIME chose not to publish an article on the episode in Haditha based solely on the eyewitnesses' accounts. On March 14, a U.S. military official in Baghdad familiar with the Watt probe finally responded to Ghosh. According to the official, the probe concluded that the civilians were in fact killed by Marines and not by an insurgent's bomb--but that the deaths appeared to be the result of "collateral damage" rather than malicious intent. Nevertheless, the official told Ghosh, the matter had been handed over to a criminal investigation. Over the next five days, the reporting by McGirk and Ghosh continued to be reviewed by TIME editors and Pentagon correspondent Sally B. Donnelly. TIME's story "One Morning in Haditha" was published on March 19 on TIME.com and appeared the next day in the print magazine (which carried a March 27 cover date). The Haditha episode began to receive wider coverage last month, when members of Congress revealed that Pentagon and military officials had disclosed that Marines may be charged in connection with the alleged massacre and that a cover-up might have taken place.

If there is any beneficiary at all of the tragedy, it is Hammurabi, the human-rights group, which is flooded with new volunteers and free to do its work more aggressively. Still, Thabet says his thoughts are mostly with the 24 who died. "Nobody cares about what happens to ordinary Iraqis," he says. They do now.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1200780,00.html

JTF,

Your reference is not objective and spins the facts to make it sound like delays in breaking this story in US, Thabet's embellishments of his qualifications prove the Haditha massacre didn't happen. Because you want to believe something doesn't make it true.

Its a fact that no one has proven the Haditha video was manufactured, and you can bet its been scrutinized closely. All the evidence regarding the video points to it being authentic and it also corresponds to orignal eye witness testimony as reported by Arabic news sources. The doctor's death certificates correspond to the video evidence. The initial US military version of events was a deliberate attempt to hide this atrocity. Subsequent versions are a whitewash of what happened. The legal technicality which ended the trial was probably deliberate. The prosecution could try the case again, but likely they won't, because they have no interest in justice when it comes to US soldiers committing crimes in Iraq. The marines probably got away with murder.