Alberta Strip Mining destroying province

[Gonzo]

In Alberta, the strip mining form of oil extraction destroys the boreal forests, the bogs, the rivers as well as the natural landscape. The mining industry believes that the boreal forest will eventually colonize the reclaimed lands, yet 30 years after the opening of the first open pit mine near Fort McMurray, Alberta, no land is considered by the Alberta Government as having been reclaimed.

For every barrel of synthetic oil produced in Alberta, 80 kg of greenhouse gases are released into the atmosphere. About 5-10% of the two to four barrels of water used for processing is considered as wastewater. The forecast growth in synthetic oil production in Alberta threatens Canada's international commitments. In ratifying the Kyoto Protocal, Canada agreed to reduce, by 2012, its greenhouse gas emissions by 6% with respect to the reference year (1990). In 2002, Canada's total greenhouse gas emissions had increased by 24% since 1990.

 

[Ariadne]

In Alberta, the strip mining form of oil extraction destroys the boreal forests, the bogs, the rivers as well as the natural landscape. The mining industry believes that the boreal forest will eventually colonize the reclaimed lands, yet 30 years after the opening of the first open pit mine near Fort McMurray, Alberta, no land is considered by the Alberta Government as having been reclaimed.

For every barrel of synthetic oil produced in Alberta, 80 kg of greenhouse gases are released into the atmosphere. About 5-10% of the two to four barrels of water used for processing is considered as wastewater. The forecast growth in synthetic oil production in Alberta threatens Canada's international commitments. In ratifying the Kyoto Protocal, Canada agreed to reduce, by 2012, its greenhouse gas emissions by 6% with respect to the reference year (1990). In 2002, Canada's total greenhouse gas emissions had increased by 24% since 1990.

Did I hear correctly on the news last night that Harper is creating tax deductions and incentives for Alberta oil companies to curb strip mining? Anyone else hear that?

 

[Gonzo]

I think it was Dion who said that. I got this from another forum:

He still refers to Alberta's hydrocarbon-driven economy as a "milk cow," but federal Liberal Leader Stephane Dion says that doesn't mean he hopes to milk our natural resources.
And Albertans needn't worry that his plans to protect the environment will stifle the current economic boom.
Au contraire, says the former cabinet minister.

In his first visit to the province since becoming opposition leader last month, Dion called for "environment tax reforms" that will ensure Alberta's milk will be flowing for years to come.
"I will be the best partner they (Alberta) ever saw from Ottawa if I become prime minister, because I am committed to help Albertans have sustainable development," Dion said yesterday.
"If we succeed in making Fort McMurray sustainable, we will succeed everywhere in the world because we
will export our new technologies, our know-how, and we will make megatonnes of money with it."

Dion vowed that if he wins the next election, his government will review the oil and natural gas tax structure and look at instituting a graduated level of taxation "to reward the good behaviours," such as reducing greenhouse-gas emissions.
Dion, is in favour of tax breaks for smart cars

 

[Ariadne]

I think it was Dion who said that. I got this from another forum:

He still refers to Alberta's hydrocarbon-driven economy as a "milk cow," but federal Liberal Leader Stephane Dion says that doesn't mean he hopes to milk our natural resources.
And Albertans needn't worry that his plans to protect the environment will stifle the current economic boom.
Au contraire, says the former cabinet minister.

In his first visit to the province since becoming opposition leader last month, Dion called for "environment tax reforms" that will ensure Alberta's milk will be flowing for years to come.
"I will be the best partner they (Alberta) ever saw from Ottawa if I become prime minister, because I am committed to help Albertans have sustainable development," Dion said yesterday.
"If we succeed in making Fort McMurray sustainable, we will succeed everywhere in the world because we
will export our new technologies, our know-how, and we will make megatonnes of money with it."

Dion vowed that if he wins the next election, his government will review the oil and natural gas tax structure and look at instituting a graduated level of taxation "to reward the good behaviours," such as reducing greenhouse-gas emissions.
Dion, is in favour of tax breaks for smart cars

Alberta has sustainable development ... wait a minute, we've got the capitalistic sustainable development but not the environmental sustainable development - and let's keep in mind that the term was originally coined for environmental sustainability. Hmmmm, it's almost offensive to think of the words sustainable development in terms of money. The environment is not being sustained. Canada has more water than anyone else in the world and wrecklessly wastes it more than anyone else in the world so they can extract oil and make money, and more money, and so much money that they have more money than they need. That's not sustainable at all.

Rewarding good behavior is all very nice and well for children, but companies that are raking in billions of dollars really need laws to curb their greediness, not incentives for good behavior.

 

[Toro]

Who cares if they're strip mining?

There is roughly $10 trillion worth of energy sitting in northern Alberta.

Enough said.

 

[Gonzo]

Thats the attitude that is destroying the planet. "Who cares what kind of world we leave our children, theres money in oil!!!" How selfish.

 

[Toro]

Thats the attitude that is destroying the planet. "Who cares what kind of world we leave our children, theres money in oil!!!" How selfish.

You're leaving your children, and their children, and their children, and their children, etc., wealthy as can be, and you're worried about some bugs in the wilderness?

There's LOTS of wilderness in Canada. I think we can sacrifice a bit of it to make Canadians wealthy for centuries.

 

[Tonington]

Plenty of wilderness perhaps, but the Athabasca river has declining rates of flow, and increased economic pressure will require better capture technologies for the oil sands, nothing wrong with making money, as long as you aren't sacrificing too much. What is it now 1.1 million barrels a day, supposed to be 3.0 million by 2020, obviously we can't continue to use 2-4.5 barrels of water for one barrel of oil.

 

[Karlin]

natural gas wasted on tar sands extraction

For every barrel of synthetic oil produced in Alberta, 80 kg of greenhouse gases are released into the atmosphere. About 5-10% of the two to four barrels of water used for processing is considered as wastewater.

- on top of that unsustainable use of water, they are using natural gas to heat the mix to extract the oil from the sand. The process used there now requires the energy of 5 bbls of crude oil to make one bbl of crude oil

If this is a smart use of our resources, please explain it to me.

Put another way: Of ALL the natural gas produced by ALberta each year [and it is a lot] , just over ONE-THIRD will be going to the oil sands operation. Lost there, just to create crude oil that the USA like more than natural gas!!

As "a form of energy", that natural gas could be used to produce hydrogen in a clean manner centrally, and then that fuels is a form of 'storage' of the natural gas' energy. That would be a better way to use this gas that will be going to produce crude oil. There would be a lot less CO2 emissions, for one thing.

 

[MikeyDB]

Tao

I'm only going to say this once and it might just as well be here in "Let's Destroy the Planet for A Dollarostmodern fiscalized-infanticide".

Everything everywhere is intimately and critically bound to everything else. The water that's flowing in our rivers was once the sweat of Jesus Christ or Mohammed or Buddha....it's the same water that's ever existed everywhere and anywhere on this planet.

If we decide that our "years" are worth more or more "important" than the lives our our children...so be it.

 

[Toro]

the energy of 5 bbls of crude oil to make one bbl of crude oil

What do you mean by this exactly because it certainly does not take 5 barrels of oil to make one? Surely, this is not what you are saying, right? I mean, how could it be economic?

I have a paper somewhere which, if I recall correctly, states that for every barrel of oil produced in the oil sands, it takes 0.3-0.9 mmcf of natural gas, depending on the process used. Since the energy exchange for a barrel of oil is 6 mmcf of nat gas, that isn't 5 bbls of oil.

But perhaps I'm misinterpreting what you are saying.

 

[Toro]

I'm only going to say this once and it might just as well be here in "Let's Destroy the Planet for A Dollarostmodern fiscalized-infanticide".

Everything everywhere is intimately and critically bound to everything else. The water that's flowing in our rivers was once the sweat of Jesus Christ or Mohammed or Buddha....it's the same water that's ever existed everywhere and anywhere on this planet.

If we decide that our "years" are worth more or more "important" than the lives our our children...so be it.

God put the tar sands in Alberta for us to exploit.

How's that for theological rationalization!

 

[#juan]

Come on Toro,

We are exchanging natural gas for oil so we can sell that oil to the Americans. I'm not entirely sure it is even economically sound. The fact that we are using so much water is another matter that is more important and that the federal government should look into.

 

[I think not]

Poor Toro. Utilizing a renewable resource (water) to extract a non-renewable resource (oil) that kills bugs in the process in order to sell oil to those pesky filthy consumer driven Amerikans all while making money for Kanadians. And all this is acceptable to you? How dare you think that way!

:wave:

 

[#juan]

Poor Toro. Utilizing a renewable resource (water) to extract a non-renewable resource (oil) that kills bugs in the process in order to sell oil to those pesky filthy consumer driven Amerikans all while making money for Kanadians. And all this is acceptable to you? How dare you think that way!

:wave:

I'm sure you don't care, but I don't know if water use in the quantities that it is being used in the tar sands oil extraction is a renewable resource. Nor do I know how clean the water is when it is released. But who cares about that? Let's just make as much money as we can and not worry about it. Our kids and grand kids will handle it.

 

[I think not]

I'm sure you don't care, but I don't know if water use in the quantities that it is being used in the tar sands oil extraction is a renewable resource. Nor do I know how clean the water is when it is released. But who cares about that? Let's just make as much money as we can and not worry about it. Our kids and grand kids will handle it.

You're so concerned about Albertans selling oil to Americans, but it went over your head (probably) that the BC forest industry probably does alot more damage to the environment than Albertan oil extraction.

But let your kids and grandkids worry about that.

 

[Tonington]

I'm by no means a forestry expert, but I would think the oil sands place a heavier burden than the tar sands. Forests can grow back and as has allready been said, no land has yet been reclaimed in the tar sand projects.

Further, the increasing demand on natural gas for the bitumen extraction may pose some political problems for Canada under the NAFTA. I've heard that we cannot decrease our natural gas exportation to facilitate use in industrial processes here without decreasing our own natural gas consumption. Again not an issue I know much about.

The water problem is what worries me the most. The Athabasca river cannot support the expected increase in usage resulting from increased tar sand projects. Deep water sources can be used, but more energy will have to be used to de-salinate those waters. Water is recycled in the tar sand projects but each barrel of bitumen requires somewhere between 1 and two barrels of makeup water. The water that cannot be released back into the water course is laden with heavy metals, and in some cases the particles can take up to 200 years to settle in the ponds, some of which are many kilometers in area. This will leave us with environmental problems for several years.

 

[Toro]

Further, the increasing demand on natural gas for the bitumen extraction may pose some political problems for Canada under the NAFTA. I've heard that we cannot decrease our natural gas exportation to facilitate use in industrial processes here without decreasing our own natural gas consumption. Again not an issue I know much about.

This is false. It is propogated by people with a political axe to grind. There is nothing in NAFTA that says this.

Here is the NAFTA article on energy.

http://www-tech.mit.edu/Bulletins/Nafta/06.energy

The water problem is what worries me the most. The Athabasca river cannot support the expected increase in usage resulting from increased tar sand projects. Deep water sources can be used, but more energy will have to be used to de-salinate those waters. Water is recycled in the tar sand projects but each barrel of bitumen requires somewhere between 1 and two barrels of makeup water. The water that cannot be released back into the water course is laden with heavy metals, and in some cases the particles can take up to 200 years to settle in the ponds.

You're an engineer student, right? Apply your knowledge, solve the problem, and become a gazillionaire!

 

[Toro]

Come on Toro,

We are exchanging natural gas for oil so we can sell that oil to the Americans. I'm not entirely sure it is even economically sound. The fact that we are using so much water is another matter that is more important and that the federal government should look into.

Juan

You're an intelligent, educated, learned individual, right?

Well, so are the people pouring hundreds of billions of dollars into the oil sands, the people who make their living in finance and in energy, the people who eat, breathe and sleep their careers, the experts in their fields. Those people aren't morons.

It is enormously profitable and beneficial for Canada.

 

[Toro]

I'm sure you don't care, but I don't know if water use in the quantities that it is being used in the tar sands oil extraction is a renewable resource. Nor do I know how clean the water is when it is released. But who cares about that? Let's just make as much money as we can and not worry about it. Our kids and grand kids will handle it.

Of course environmental damage should be minimized. But one shouldn't be so off-handish about wealth. There is no guarantee that simply because Canada is rich today it will be so tomorrow. History is littered with example after example of nations that were once rich that are no longer. And given a choice between living in a rich place versus a poor one, I'd reckon 99.9999% of the world would choose the former.

There are roughly 350,000,000,000 barrels of oil equivalent in the oil sands. At $50 per barrel, thats $17,500,000,000,000 - that's trillion with a "t" - or roughly 17x the size of the entire Canadian economy.

That is frickin' massive!

So let's not allow a few bugs and trees stand in the way of this enormous resource. We can keep the other 98% of Canada pristine.