Quebec as a Nation

Do you recognized Québec as being a nation ?


  • Total voters
    44

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
Nah, I don't agree.

If the constituents want to elect one of the 20 members running for the Marijuana Party, let them.

Democracy is supposed to be a reflection of the will of the people, not a mechanism to serve a monolithic political structure.

I am not talking a monolithic structure. I am talking the differences between a national party and a provincial party. If the Bloc wants to be a federal party I think they should be required to run members in all provinces during elections.We pander too much to Quebec in this country. Many don't see a problem with a provincially based political party sitting in the House because it is from Quebec. I daresay most people in this country would feel quite differently if the party was an Albertan separtist party or a native separtist party.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
4,558
48
48
Ontario
www.poetrypoem.com
Each province in Canada has its uniqueness ,I cant imagine a Canada without Quebec ,I cant imagine a Alberta, British Columbia, Manitoba, New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Labrador, Nova Scotia, Ontario, Prince Edward Island, and Saskatchewan. Northwest . We stand as One

Exactly. I resent, as a Canadian, the ongoing debate with and about one part of the country, as if that was all we need worry about here. It is constant and I suspect getting redundant for the rest of the country. Quebec needs to, in the words of kids, get over itself and push to reconcile its status as one part of the country. Our greatness is in our unity. Quebec belongs as much to the person in BC or Ontario as it does to those living in the province.
 

ottawabill

Electoral Member
May 27, 2005
909
8
18
Eastern Ontario
This is the same post I have on another thread but I'm too lazy today to re-write something similar hehehe

"well the first part is that the media got this terribly wrong...

I had heard that Harper had called Quebec a nation as was quite distressed... I thought damn they are ruining the country for a few votes...then I got home and watched the news....

As usual the media has twisted the story to suit their headlines...

He has not or will not refer to Quebec as a nation her refered to Quebecois as a nation..this is now where near the same. First if he had refered to Quebec as a nation the Bloc would be cheering and go along with it...they are not... He has refered to a " nationality" of people i.e. Quebecois but called Quebec a province within Canada.

If the media could keep things straight we can have real dicussions on issues....

Certainly gets Mr. Ignatieff but outta trouble doesn't it??"
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
536
113
Regina, SK
Short term gain, long term pain.

It all began with Ignatieff's ill-advised comments about Quebec being a nation and the divisiveness that introduced into the Liberal leadership campaign. The Bloc Head, seeing another chance to toss a little sand in the gears, put forward a motion that Parliament recognize the Québécois as a nation. The Liberal caucus could not be seen as not supporting that without losing support in Quebec. Then along comes Harper to add "within a united Canada" to the motion. He saves Ignatieff's and the Liberal convention's dilemma, he pre-empts the Bloc, and produces a motion all parties in the House but the Bloc can support. Bully for him.

But, no unambiguous definition of nation is possible. Harper's motion uses it as a cultural, linguistic, and sociological term, and it's significant that it's the Québécois being identified as a nation, not Quebec. The Québécois have self-identified as a nation for years in that sense, just as Canada's aboriginal people have done. The Bloc Québécois and the Parti Québécois want to use nation to mean an organized independent political and geographic entity as well. It won't be long before they're spinning it to mean whatever they want and trying to intimidate the rest of us into giving them what they want. Somebody will claim that Parliament recognized Quebec as a nation, for instance, and try to lever that into greater delegation of powers to the province.

In fact it's happening already. Today's (23 November 2006) Toronto Globe&Mail newspaper was already muddying the waters. Several columnists failed to make the distinction between Québécois and Quebec, though the lead editorial got it right and talked about exactly the issues I've raised here. The editorial cartoon was a drawing of Harper opening a can of worms.

But it just re-opens that ugly and divisive existential debate about national unity that never solved anything, and gives new impetus to the separatists. It's quite clear from every poll I've ever seen that Quebecers, given a clear question about independence and sovereignty and whatnot, would not vote for separation. The only reason the last referendum was as close as it was was because the question was extremely convoluted and people like Bouchard and Parizeau were dissembling about what it meant, and what they'd do if they got a yes on it.

I'm fed up with this issue. It's dominated the national agenda all my adult life, sometimes to the exclusion of more important things. Hard core separatists are a minority, and will probably never go away, but we've granted them far more power and influence than their numbers would justify.
 

ottawabill

Electoral Member
May 27, 2005
909
8
18
Eastern Ontario
Short term gain, long term pain.


In fact it's happening already. Today's (23 November 2006) Toronto Globe&Mail newspaper was already muddying the waters. Several columnists failed to make the distinction between Québécois and Quebec, though the lead editorial got it right and talked about exactly the issues I've raised here. The editorial cartoon was a drawing of Harper opening a can of worms. quote]

CLARITY HAS NEVER BEEN USED WHEN DEALING WITH QUEBEC!! YES THE MEDIA THIS MORNING IS TRYING TO ADD FUEL TO THE FIRE BUT NOT DISTINQUISHING THE DIFFERENCE..
 

Gonzo

Electoral Member
Dec 5, 2004
997
1
18
Was Victoria, now Ottawa
This isn't a strong stance. This is catering to Quebec. Trudeau had a strong stance. In the 80's they saw a weak man in Clark and moved. But Trudeau came back and fought. And won. Now they see a weak man in Harper. How can a westerner win by catering to Quebec? Mulroney, a French man, tried and failed both in the west and in Quebec. Who's to stop Newfoundland from becoming a nation? What about Alberta? This is garbage.
Only in Canada do we carve up the country and think we’re an example to the world.
 

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
1,947
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www.kdm.ca
"Only in Canada do we carve up the country and think we’re an example to the world."

Could you expand on this? I don't see how canada is holding itself as an example to the world.

As for carving up the country. I think it is important to identify what that country is: a country of convenience. Canada is a bunch of geographicly and culturally distinct parts that because it is easy to stay affiliated, do so. Much like the lazy man who thinks there are better looking women out there than his wife, but he doesn't have to do anything special to keep his current arrangement does nothing. "its not that great, but it works." To the same extent, there is likely to be little battle when canada dissolves because of the lack of an interconnectedness accross the lands. That said, I think there is the potential for many nations under one flag. The question is what is the path from here to there?
 

McDonald

Nominee Member
Jan 23, 2006
80
1
8
Chicoutimi, Québec
www.myspace.com
This is the most idiotic move I have witnessed a PM make in my lifetime. It is his job to squash separatism, not to encourage it. The sovereigntist movement has never, until now, had any legal precedent to stand on. All they ever had was false history and anecdotal notions of ethnicity. There is no Québécois nation and there never has been. There are French-Canadians, and they live in every province. Québec just happens to be where they are the majority. That does not constitute a nation.

We as a country have, once again, had our best interests sold out by our own leader. F*ck this guy!
 

elevennevele

Electoral Member
Mar 13, 2006
787
11
18
Canada
While I tend to have confidence in my opinions when I do share them, I am also wise enough to know when I would contribute a big zero. I’m usually fairly good at predicting outcomes, but I’m not a fortune teller. The result of all this can take a myriad of paths. The future pertaining to it is as diverse as the hearts of Canadians, or the additional unknowns which could face this country down the road.

Somehow I have to wrap my mind in the idea that this country becomes all the more unified in how we keep getting better at subdividing it. This also has that “in the moment” effect you get with night time fireworks — of satiating the voice of Quebecers needing to be heard (for now). However human beings have a tendency to never be satisfied with what they have/get. Even millionaires look enviously at the multimillionaire next door. ‘Wanting more’ never usually has an end to it so the trick will be keeping the honeymoon lasting forever.

I love diverse cultural identities. I love Canada for having so much culture within it’s borders. But I love the concept of equality just as much. Somehow it is all going to have to match up. Somehow in all this I have to believe that no Canadian is more important than another Canadian or can be holding a greater status unto themselves. It becomes as awkward as balancing Native issues.

Maybe I would have been slightly for the idea of officially recognizing Canada as having symbolic cultural regions. Something a little more honest between peoples. However cultural protectionism usually comes at the expense of the voice of a minority within the community. That need then for protection from what or who. You hear of those protectionist feelings when immigration is discussed and ‘who’ from ‘where’ is questioned worthy enough to enter our hallowed borders. How much more complicated does that become when you have borders within borders (even if the politicians try to wiggle it as being only human borders)?

Culture while hereditary is also fluid. Canadian French is not Parisian French. It has developed a Canadian quality to it. And all our ethnicities within our borders have also contributed to what is English Canada and what is French Canadian.

Sure, great unknowns can be exciting for an adventure. When it comes to the fabric of our country, this is where the ‘Conservative’ in me says, “hey, not so fast.” Have we really thought everything through so we can form consensus and understanding regarding hypotheticals which could end up becoming so far reaching? Let’s not leave a miscalculation un-debated when it comes to the unity of our country.

I think the future of all this now depends on the size of Quebecers' hearts for their fellow Canadian. Can we now all move forward together as a family or will this be just another means to place more importance on one member over the other and become an even greater wedge card to divide us further down the road? So far we have measured what we have done by noting the happiness people feel after enjoying the night time fireworks.

Like I said, I’m not a fortune teller. I’ll guess the best I can do is keep my fingers crossed on a pandora’s box opened because what’s done is now done.

Ah yes, and all from two of my favorite politicians, Ignatieff and Harper. :pukeright:
 
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elevennevele

Electoral Member
Mar 13, 2006
787
11
18
Canada
Makes me think of that commercial where the guy wakes to a phone call message from a friend after a heavy night of drinking, surprised, but relieved to only see a nipple pieced in the mirror from being drunk. Meanwhile he has a giant tattoo on his back with the name ‘Cheryl’ on it.
 

Toro

Senate Member
I am not talking a monolithic structure. I am talking the differences between a national party and a provincial party. If the Bloc wants to be a federal party I think they should be required to run members in all provinces during elections.

By requiring who can and who cannot run under what party, you are developing a system that serves the established parties first and the people second.

People should be allowed to vote for whomever they want. They should be able to send to Ottawa whomever they want.

Democracy is messy.
 

Gonzo

Electoral Member
Dec 5, 2004
997
1
18
Was Victoria, now Ottawa
My best example I can give to my quote "Only in Canada do we carve up the country and think we’re an example to the world" is what Harper said when he unveiled his political bombshell; "To millions more who live in a dangerous and dividing world, this country is a shining example of harmony and unity to which all peoples are capable and to which all humanity should aspire."
How is encouraging separatism a "shining example"?
 

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
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www.kdm.ca
maybe through separation we will demonstrate how we can be a globe of villages. A return to small tribes, yet without the isolation?

That is a potential I see, not my interpretation of Harper.

A shining example would be to not be defined by geo-political borders. Lines on a map don't make a people, they ensnare people.
 

Gonzo

Electoral Member
Dec 5, 2004
997
1
18
Was Victoria, now Ottawa
Maybe, but separatism is drawing a line on the map. Right now it's provencial boarders that you can easily cross. As a nation, it's a national boarder. Separatist want to distance themselves from Canada. Over language and history.
 

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
1,947
2
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www.kdm.ca
sometimes you have to separate to be together.

first the "tribe" must be stong in itself, before it can be open and borderless to other tribes.
 

Gonzo

Electoral Member
Dec 5, 2004
997
1
18
Was Victoria, now Ottawa
Quebec is pretty strong as it is. Where is it weak? If anything, separating will divide Quebec more. There are a majority of people who dont want to separate. Natives dont want to be a part of a Quebec nation. I think Quebec is strong now, and separating would make it weak. Quebec itself would then be divided up.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
Thanx for clearing that up Ottawa, but it still is a short sighted ploy for votes and political manuevering. the long term ramifications will still be as painful.

The use of Quebecouis or Quebec, won't matter much when the issue of more power to, or rights to, change Federal standards within Quebec are before the Supreme Courts and the French powers that be use this piece of political shyte, to effect drastic changes to laws and or the practices of already Dranconian laws, on the hapless non French members of the Quebec population.
 

Gonzo

Electoral Member
Dec 5, 2004
997
1
18
Was Victoria, now Ottawa
A return to small tribes is a bad thing. We'd be left behind in the world. Europe is uniting, Asia is growing, and Canada is bickering about language and Quebecs standing in the country. This country is backwards at times. Dividing the country up will make is even more insignificant.
 

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
1,947
2
38
www.kdm.ca
globally we will see breakdowns before we see a global-village. The old geopolitical structures must buckle before we can see a real transformation.