Scotland: ‘Pound is as much ours as it is yours’

Blackleaf

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....until another country decides to use it.

The independent Scots are not using the GBP just so that English, Welsh and Northern Irish taxpayers can continue to bail them out when their banks fail again. End of story.

Either they are independent and they stand on their own two feet and stop relying on bailouts from the country they voted to leave (should that happen) or they remain in the UK. Why should the UK (England, Wales and NI) allow the independent Scots to use the BRITISH currency just so English, Welsh and NI taxpayers can bail them out when their banks fail again? What do you think this is?

How would the Canadians like it if a newly independent Quebec carried on using the Canadian dollar just so that the Canadian taxpayers can bail Quebec out when its banks fail?

Alex Salmond’s big problem

The battle for Scotland has come to turn on a dispute over currency—which unionists are winning

Feb 21st 2014 | EDINBURGH
The Economist


An uncomfortable truth for Salmond: Had Scotland been an independent nation when its banks failed its small economy would not have been able to bail them out

DEBATES about Scottish independence tend to start with national identity and end with dry economic facts. It only takes a brief chat with one of the Scots pounding the streets for a “yes” or a “no” vote in the referendum due on September 18th to establish that much.

Within minutes he or she will be on to the details of oil prices and national debt, and whether they militate for or against leaving the United Kingdom.

The air war over independence is starting to conform to the same pattern. Alex Salmond, head of the separatist Scottish National Party (SNP) and Scotland's First Minister, is most comfortable talking about self-determination and national character. He scheduled the referendum to take place close to the 700th anniversary of the Battle of Bannockburn, a famous Scottish victory over the English. David Cameron, the prime minister, used a speech on February 7th to describe the “emotional, patriotic” case for the union. But, with the referendum approaching, political leaders south of the border are now posing the vexing economic questions that look certain to decide its outcome.

The toughest question of the lot concerns currency. Scots overwhelmingly want to keep the pound. Nationalists assure them that an independent Scotland could share it with the rest of Britain. But on February 13th George Osborne, the chancellor of the exchequer, delivered a speech in Edinburgh warning them that such a sterling zone would not work and would not have his support. His view is shared by the Treasury’s top official, Sir Nicholas Macpherson, and both the Labour and Liberal Democrat parties.

A sterling zone would resemble the euro zone in some ways, with integrated monetary and banking systems but separate fiscal and political ones. This asymmetry made the euro prone to crisis, so unionists fret about the parallels. Mr Osborne fears that just as Germany had to bail out Ireland, Cyprus and Greece to save the euro, Britain might have to rescue a stricken Scotland to protect the two countries’ shared financial system.

Making matters worse, Scotland is home to two of Britain’s largest banks in Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) and Lloyds, which is based there owing to a quirk of corporate history. If the country became independent it would have bank assets twelve times the size of its GDP. The equivalent multiple for the rest of Britain is below five; for Ireland on the eve of the financial crisis it was about seven (see chart).




In another meltdown, then, an independent Scotland would struggle to rescue its banks. Indeed, although its present fiscal position appears at least as good as that of the rest of Britain, its longer-term prospects are poor. Scotland’s dependence on oil production exposes it to external shocks, and it is ageing faster than the rest of Britain. The Institute for Fiscal Studies, a think-tank, reckons an independent Scotland will face a larger fiscal gap than Britain even if oil revenues remain strong: 1.9% of national income against 0.8% for the UK.

Mr Salmond was having none of this. In a speech on February 17th he pointed out that a ring fence separating retail from investment banking, due to be implemented by 2019, ought to reduce the chances of another banking crisis. He also said the chancellor had exaggerated the size of Scottish banking assets by including those based in London, such as RBS’s investment-banking arm—implying that an independent Scotland would take little responsibility for them. And the SNP leader predicted that the rest of Britain would surely drop its opposition to a sterling union for fear of the transaction costs—estimated at £500m ($800m)—of separate currencies. He dubbed this a “George tax”.

These reassurances are rose-tinted, to say the least. Splitting investment from retail banking will not abolish banking crises. Nor will it completely absolve sovereigns of liability. Even if the Scottish retail operations of Lloyds and RBS could be hived off during a crisis, someone would probably need to save the banks’ remaining operations. They are globally systemic and remain far too big to fail safely. Scotland would have neither the capacity nor—judging by Mr Salmond’s words—the willingness to save them. The bill would fall to London. Presumably the British authorities would only be willing to shoulder those liabilities if RBS and Lloyds moved their headquarters from Edinburgh to London in advance.

Mr Salmond also threatens that Scotland will not take on a population share of the national debt if London refuses to let it use the pound and the Bank of England. Yet such a move would make it harder to negotiate a good independence settlement with the rest of Britain, wreck Scotland’s credibility in capital markets and send its borrowing costs skyward. On February 19th Danny Alexander, the chief secretary to the Treasury, pointed out that Scottish mortgages would become more costly.

Walking away from Britain’s national debt might also weaken an independent Scotland’s bid to stay in the EU. In recent days both José Manuel Barroso, the president of the European Commission, and Herman Van Rompuy, the president of the European Council, have suggested that such a bid would stumble. It would certainly face large difficulties if the new state were embroiled in an acrimonious spat with London.

The financial crisis, and fears that Britain could be the “next Greece”, helped the Conservatives to oust Labour at the 2010 general election. The Tory-led coalition government that emerged was a boon to pro-independence campaigners like Mr Salmond (the Tories being toxic in Scotland). It contributed to the SNP’s victory in Scottish Parliament elections the following year. Now the spectre of bank runs and bail-outs is again haunting the British Isles. But this time it is crimping, not boosting, the nationalists’ appeal. As one so fond of historical coincidences, Mr Salmond will doubtless appreciate the irony.

Scottish independence: Alex Salmond’s big problem | The Economist
 
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Cannuck

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The independent Scots are not using the GBP just so that English, Welsh and Northern Irish taxpayers can continue to bail them out when their banks fail again. End of story.

They can if they want to and I doubt they care how much that may upset you
 

Cannuck

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The main difference between the UK/Scotland issue and the Canada/Kweebeck issue is that Scotland has oil and would leave the rest of the UK in its dust if it left. Kweebeck, on the other hand, would be an economic basket case were it ever to leave Canada. There are mostly emotional reasons for Kweebeck to leave Canada. There are mostly emotional reasons for Scotland to stay.
 

Blackleaf

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They can if they want to

And then they'll suffer as a result.

The main difference between the UK/Scotland issue and the Canada/Kweebeck issue is that Scotland has oil

Oil which is declining.

North Sea oil production reached its peak in 1999 and has been on a terminal downward slope since then. Basing their economy on a commodity which will soon run out and whose prices fluctuate greatly every so many years is not a very wise thing to do. According to Energy Minister Michael Fallon, Scottish tax revenues from oil have fluctuated between £2 billion and £12 billion a year, meaning a separate Scotland would have to resort in the bad years to “short-term borrowing that would make even Gordon Brown blush”.

Another problem the Scots have is the Shetland Isles. Despite being a part of Scotland since Norway gave them to the Scots in the 15th Century, the Germanic Shetlanders, who once had their own Germanic language, related to English and not Scottish Gaelic, called Norn, are more pro-English (fellow Germanics) than pro-Scottish. The Shetlanders do not consider themselves to be Scottish and do not even like the Scots and it is thought that, if Scotland became independent, then the Shetland Islands may secede from Scotland and remain in the UK, probably becoming part of England. A huge proportion of "Scotland's" North Sea oil is in Shetland, so if that were to happen then that oil in Shetland will still belong to the UK, not Scotland.

Meanwhile, with Scotland gone and having to rely on its dwindling North Sea oil, the remainder of the UK will start fracking all that shale gas that it has in abundance beneath its soil. There are 1,300 trillion cubic feet of shale gas beneath the North of England alone, enough to power the UK for 40 years. So whilst an independent Scotland's North Sea oil would be diminishing, the UK (without Scotland) would have plenty of its own natural resource to keep its lights on. And the time may come when we may have to start exporting some of it to Scotland when their oil runs out.

And if Scotland DID become independent, it would save UK taxpayers the £500 million a year towards Scotland's renewable energy industry (as usual, it's the English, Welsh and Northern Irish who have to pay for the Scots, not the Scots themselves). According to Mr Fallon, this is 40 per cent of the UK’s renewables total despite Scotland only having about 10 per cent of the population, suggesting this burden would have to be borne by Scottish bill payers alone after independence.


There are mostly emotional reasons for Scotland to stay.

There are economic reasons for Scotland to stay in the UK. Scotland needs the UK and to be a part of the UK's much larger economy.

One thing you never hear the Scottish nationalists mention is the fact that when the great Scottish banks RBS and HBOS failed they were only able to be bailed out because Scotland is part of the UK. Their combined assets equal 12 times Scotland's GDP, so had Scotland been independent it would not have been able to afford to bail them out. When Iceland's banks failed, their assets were just seven times Iceland's GDP, so an independent Scotland would have fared even worse. Yet due to Scotland being part of the UK the Scots had all those millions of English, Welsh and NI taxpayers handy to bail out their banks. This was the best recent example of why, economically, Scotland needs the UK.

Another reason why an independent Scotland won't fare as well economically as the UK is the fact that Scotland's population is older and is ageing faster than the rest of the UK.
 
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Machjo

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If the pound belongs to the UK, then Scotland has no right to use it if it leaves the UK.

Why become independent but then opt to use the same currency as the country which you seceded from and still have your economy run by the central bank of the country which you seceded from? Either the Scots become independent or they don't. They can't pick and choose certain areas to become independent in and other areas not to become independent in to suit themselves. Either complete independence or none at all.

The Scots Nats only want to carry on using the pound so the Bank of England can bail them out should they get into economic troubles again. Basically, they want to sever ties with the UK and become an "independent" nation and yet want the UK to still be on hand to bail them out in the hard times. And I don't think the English, Welsh and Northern Irish taxpayers would be too happy with that. We already pay for the pampered Scots' freebies within the UK. I don't see why we should have to bail them out as an independent nation when they get into trouble. If the Scots aren't prepared to stand on their own two feet as an independent nation then they shouldn't become independent.

So, no, an independent Scotland will not be having the pound. I'm laughing at the way poor old Salmond and the nats are desperately trying to find new currency arrangements right now.

But if Skotland is part of the UK, then technically it wouldn't be separating from the UK, but from the rest of the UK. There is a difference there. So if, as you ,say, they would be separating from not the rest of the UK, but the UK, then that means that they are not part of the UK already, so might as well make it official, no?
 

Cannuck

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And then they'll suffer as a result.

Can I take from that statement that you have now accepted that Scotland can use whatever currency they like?

What you fail to realize is that the UK best days are behind them. Scotland would be far better to rid itself from the UK. If things didn't work out, they could always become a province in Canada. At least their future would be brighter.
 

Machjo

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One thing I don't get. Seeing that sharing a common currency with benefit both sides, why would britain want to shoot itself in the foot here?
 

Cannuck

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One thing I don't get. Seeing that sharing a common currency with benefit both sides, why would britain want to shoot itself in the foot here?

It may or may not benefit both sides but there is no doubt that negotiations are the best route.
 

Machjo

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It may or may not benefit both sides but there is no doubt that negotiations are the best route.

You mean brinksmanship and belligerance isn't the best route? Are you suggesting that it would be to everyone's advantage if the UK and and independant Skotland could both benefit by maintainig friendly relations?

You don't say! :)
 

Cannuck

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Why would Britain do that at all? There is absolutely no reason taht they would consider anything remotely like that

I'm not sure of all the pros and cons but I do know that Canada's ambassador to Iceland said that Canada was willing to negotiate with Iceland if they chose to adopt the dollar so there are obviously reasons to consider it
 

Machjo

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I'm not sure of all the pros and cons but I do know that Canada's ambassador to Iceland said that Canada was willing to negotiate with Iceland if they chose to adopt the dollar so there are obviously reasons to consider it

The main advantage with a common currency is the elimination of overhead costs through money brokers. In principle, the most efficient system would be a world currency.

But the fewer currencies the better.
 

captain morgan

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I'm not sure of all the pros and cons but I do know that Canada's ambassador to Iceland said that Canada was willing to negotiate with Iceland if they chose to adopt the dollar so there are obviously reasons to consider it

Iceland would benefit as the CAD is already in (international) circulation and is easily tradeable. There would be a lot of time required if Iceland were to float their own currency internationally and they will still depend on the major markets to recognize it.

From Canada's perspective, it could be a good deal, but again, if the Cdn Feds wanted to screw Iceland, they can do so via the money supply, interest rates, etc.

Point is, Scotland (Iceland) have a little less control over their economy (for what it's worth).
 

barra

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The main difference between the UK/Scotland issue and the Canada/Kweebeck issue is that Scotland has oil and would leave the rest of the UK in its dust if it left. Kweebeck, on the other hand, would be an economic basket case were it ever to leave Canada. There are mostly emotional reasons for Kweebeck to leave Canada. There are mostly emotional reasons for Scotland to stay.
Yuup!