There's one already in the thread, I think.
We will trade authorities, you have one of mine, cough up one of yours, if you don't mind.
Christianity and Religion
- Thread starter Motar
- Start date
There's one already in the thread, I think.
We will trade authorities, you have one of mine, cough up one of yours, if you don't mind.
There's one already in the thread, I think.
Would you please excuse and accommodate me and my ignorance by re-posting your assertion concerning the demise of Christianity, including the Platonian quotation supporting it, DB. Thanks.
Me, too. And what's more, "The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike" - D B McKown
As we do not know everything about the universe, I am open to possibilities, however, as time goes by and science continues to sort things out, the probabilities dwindle. EG: the latest evidence about the origin of life on Earth shows that the building blocks of life (proteins, acids, etc.) landed here on meteorites and such cosmic materials so the creation version (at least the Biblical version) has taken a direct hit below the water line - especially since researchers have found these substances on the materials and using those substances have manufactured life in the labs.
My wife the agnostic is a wee bit more accepting of the idea but thinks that the whole concept of gods is far beyond our understanding as to gods' natures that we might as well not even attempt at describing them. And as such, she considers gods and goblins to be irrelevant to humans.
We both agree that evidence supports the view that god or universe is completely indifferent to the human condition and even the planetary condition.
Gerryh: Religion = Performing works to gain salvation. Such as adherence to particular ceremonies, rules, laws, good works. Faith in Christ = freely gaining salvation by the grace of God. It is given to those who trust in Christ.
Galatians 5
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love
Religions seek salvation through works. False teachers taught amongst other things that the act of circumcision was necessary for salvation. The apostle Paul is saying it does not matter if a person is circumsised (adheres to laws and rituals). It is an indifferent act in regards to salvation. The person who relies on religious activity (lighting candles, praying the same prayer 100 times a day, or any devised work) is in bondage. A person who believes a particular act/ceremony/ritual is necessary for salvation must then follow the ENTIRE LAW. That person then obligates himself to fufill everything that is required in the law. No one can seek righteousness before God through their own efforts. They have to go through the narrow door. Only Jesus saves. We can in no way, by any effort save ourselves.
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Galatians 5
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love
Religions seek salvation through works. False teachers taught amongst other things that the act of circumcision was necessary for salvation. The apostle Paul is saying it does not matter if a person is circumsised (adheres to laws and rituals). It is an indifferent act in regards to salvation. The person who relies on religious activity (lighting candles, praying the same prayer 100 times a day, or any devised work) is in bondage. A person who believes a particular act/ceremony/ritual is necessary for salvation must then follow the ENTIRE LAW. That person then obligates himself to fufill everything that is required in the law. No one can seek righteousness before God through their own efforts. They have to go through the narrow door. Only Jesus saves. We can in no way, by any effort save ourselves.
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Have you ever entertained the thought of reading the Gnostic Gospels, supposedly written by the other apostles and their followers, or the Dead Sea Scrolls? Before Constantine sanctioned the official orthodox (following Paul's line of thinking) Christianity was a very different religion from anything it has become, particularly the Born Again movement which is so far out in right field to be not recognizable to Constantine's version. He did it to quell the unrest in his empire and never converted to it until his death bed.
So the meteorites with their proteins and acids were a direct hit on the Creator who created those proteins and acids?
Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God:the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
Romans 1:19-20 Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature- have been cleary seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
God is not indifferent. That is a sad thought.
I agreed with you until you starting quoting Saul of Tsarsis. He was an egotistical bragard that reintroduced OT laws into the NT. Christ stated that only God's laws came forward into the New Covenant and those laws were the 10 commandments which he then elaborated and expanded on.
As a Christian, I stand by my OP and my declaration that Christianity is not (a) religion, Cliffy. I speak from my personal experience with Christ, as well as my observations of genuine Christians and their relationships with Christ throughout human history.
I agree with you that christian religion and christian movements are not Christianity. I disagree with DB that Christianity has died out.
Gerryh: I have to start by saying, WHAT??????????? Have we the same Bible????? Read all of Galatians. Romans as well.
Now that I have regained my composure, please give me an example or two where Paul reintroduced OT laws.
I have read them, along with the rest of the NT and most of the OT.
Are you saying that I am wrong in what Christ said concerning the Law? Did he not state that only the Laws of God, the 10 commandments, were brought forward to the New Covenant that he brought to mankind?
Born agains believe that the only way to heaven is by being baptized as an Adult and publicly declaring your acceptance of Christ as your Savior. Anyone else will be going to Hell.
This would mean that all Catholics will be going to hell, along with Anglicans, Protestants, etc, etc, etc. Not to mention every other non Christian religion, agnostics and atheists.
The group defined by the list in Re:20:4 is the entire population on earth for the 1,000 year reign. Compared to the whole of mankind since Adam and Eve started to have children it is a small portion so the ones that come alive at the Great white Throne event is the larger number by far. It is not unusual to have the flock be larger in number than their shepherds.
Isa:54:1:
Sing,
O barren,
thou that didst not bear;
break forth into singing,
and cry aloud,
thou that didst not travail with child:
for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife,
saith the LORD.
Desolation is not being part of the group that is harvested first. That only leaves second place as there is no 3rd possibility. 2nd place means you live outside New Jerusalem rather than living inside the walls. Visiting is almost as good but you meet fewer people overall.
Please define what you mean by only the ten commandments being brought forward into the new testament.
Certainly, Paul didn't admonish to sacrifice animals or hold special days/religious feasts.
I interpret as follows. I'll be brief.
OT: enter the 10 commandments/They are good and just/Mankind cannot perfectly keep a one of them
Thus the need for a Savior
NT: Faith in Jesus' atonement brings salvation to those who believe. We still in this life are unable to keep the commandments perfectly. The work of the Holy Spirit through sanctification works in us through life and brings about good fruit....fruits of the Spirit - love, patience, longsuffering, etc.
If that is the correct definition of the Born Again Movement then that group is teaching false doctrine. They have devised a work to earn salvation. No work or effort on our part is able to save. Red flag should go up when someone says: You must do this or that in order to be saved.
Cj and Gerry,
From a biblical perspective, I believe that there are only two groups of spiritual consequence in the human family. Recall that Jesus divided people into two groups (sheep and goats). There are the children of Adam and the children of God. All other divisions among men are man-made and inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.
Yet Paul did that all the time. The first time I read Pauls letters a red flag went up for me.
We are ALL God's children.
gerryh, I cannot recall a "to do" list from Paul. He was real big on the righteous shall live by faith.
I think Motar makes a good point in post #355
Isa:65:21-25:
And they shall build houses,
and inhabit them;
and they shall plant vineyards,
and eat the fruit of them.
They shall not build,
and another inhabit;
they shall not plant,
and another eat:
for as the days of a tree are the days of my people,
and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
They shall not labour in vain,
nor bring forth for trouble;
for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD,
and their offspring with them.
And it shall come to pass,
that before they call,
I will answer;
and while they are yet speaking,
I will hear.
The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock:
and dust shall be the serpent's meat.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain,
saith the LORD.
And they shall build houses,
and inhabit them;
and they shall plant vineyards,
and eat the fruit of them.
They shall not build,
and another inhabit;
they shall not plant,
and another eat:
for as the days of a tree are the days of my people,
and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
They shall not labour in vain,
nor bring forth for trouble;
for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD,
and their offspring with them.
And it shall come to pass,
that before they call,
I will answer;
and while they are yet speaking,
I will hear.
The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock:
and dust shall be the serpent's meat.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain,
saith the LORD.
Sorry, I don't by Paul's claims, at all, period. The same goes with revelations. Written by someone on a bad acid trip as far as I'm concerned. It doesn't jive with what I've been told.
Please explain, Gerry. Please include some supportive biblical references. Thanks.