Conservative 'Robocalls' tricked voters in last election

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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A little overstated, I think.

I am a Conservative Party member, and before that I was a Canadian Alliance member, and before that a Reform member. This has been no secret, and yes, I have been misdirected to polls back when that bit of Liberal pond scum by the name of Paul Zed was trying desperately to hang on to his seat.

He failed.

But if I had not been absolutely determined to cast my vote, it would not have happened. (I mean casting my vote, not Zed getting kicked...lol)

It doesn't matter whether the Liberals are in, or the Conservatives.......these things happen. And they are, in both cases, not usually the end result of some plot hatched in Tory or Grit back rooms by the big boys. They are usually the result of an individual MP and his staff, or an over-zealous staff member, in this case one with some knowledge of the game.

Now, it matters not a whit to me whether these people are Liberal, Conservative, NDP, or Raving Loonie Party members.

Election manipulation and/or fraud chips away at the very foundation of our democratic society, and shakes the faith of the people in the ability of the system to represent them (see the post above!) IMHO, it ranks right up there with sedition, and the offenders need to be tracked down, charged, and if convicted given maximum prison terms.

I have no idea of the possible penalties, but I think ten or fifteen years would give any other potential fiddlers pause...........

I have a feeling deep inside that there will be people doing digger time as we called it in the Army. Now it may not be a whole hell of a lot. But when connected to a Party or Parties well wait for the next election.
And there is a reasonable possibility that a judge may overturn the results in riding (s) where the votes were quite tight. Then watch the spin.
 

Machjo

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And Colpie does bring up a valid point that it might not be one organized scam but rather coincidental scams across many ridings, each locally organized.
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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And Colpie does bring up a valid point that it might not be one organized scam but rather coincidental scams across many ridings, each locally organized.

All of the major parties play this game. Just that the Cons are better orged than the others, up to date info, money, lists down to who is and is not.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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I am not convinced that everyone does this, or that it should be tolerated to any degree. I agree with Colpy:

Election manipulation and/or fraud chips away at the very foundation of our democratic society, and shakes the faith of the people in the ability of the system to represent them (see the post above!) IMHO, it ranks right up there with sedition, and the offenders need to be tracked down, charged, and if convicted given maximum prison terms.
 

Colpy

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Nov 5, 2005
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I am not convinced that everyone does this, or that it should be tolerated to any degree. I agree with Colpy:

Election manipulation and/or fraud chips away at the very foundation of our democratic society, and shakes the faith of the people in the ability of the system to represent them (see the post above!) IMHO, it ranks right up there with sedition, and the offenders need to be tracked down, charged, and if convicted given maximum prison terms.

I will immediately rethink my position...


lol
 

Machjo

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All of the major parties play this game. Just that the Cons are better orged than the others, up to date info, money, lists down to who is and is not.

But if it turns out to be multiple local scams, then the charges would apply to local Conservatives only and not the party, or if organized at the local level, then possibly the leadership of the local conservative Association and its leadership, but not likely to affect the party as a whole.

And as colpie said, we might even find other party members guilty too. We'll see how big this gets.
 

Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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Yes, they did call people.

As a follow up to my last response to you, I listened to The Current podcast. What Dean Del Mastro -parliamentary secretary to the Prime Minister- said, was that 127 polling locations were changed by Elections Canada between the mailing of voter information cards and the day of the election, and that the Conservative party called it's members to inform them of the changes.
 

Machjo

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Fraudulent election phone calls raise more questions - Politics - CBC News

Now it looks like some of the calls originated from the US. Any one making these calls from the US would of course be subject to any applicable US law (and hopefully US election laws apply to foreign elections too), though anyone planning such calls from Canada would be subject to Canadian laws.

This also makes it clear that we ought to ensure Canadian laws relating to election fraud apply not only to election fraud within Canada but also to international election fraud from within Canada, assuming we don't have that already; and encourage other countries around teh world to pass similar laws.
 

JLM

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Nov 27, 2008
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As a follow up to my last response to you, I listened to The Current podcast. What Dean Del Mastro -parliamentary secretary to the Prime Minister- said, was that 127 polling locations were changed by Elections Canada between the mailing of voter information cards and the day of the election, and that the Conservative party called it's members to inform them of the changes.


O.K. I stand corrected. :smile:
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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Ontario
Hébert: Robo-call accusations raise uncomfortable questions

By Chantal Hébert

MONTREAL—If there is a tactical scheme behind the so-called voter suppression scandal, it is not readily apparent in the list of allegedly abused ridings put forward by the opposition parties.

Only a small fraction of the 50 federal seats where the margin of victory was less than 5 per cent last May — and where presumably every vote counted — are alleged to have been targeted by fraudulent calls.

Liberal ridings such as Brampton-Springdale and Ajax-Pickering that were known to be high on the Conservatives’ to-win list (and that they did win) were apparently not plagued by such calls.

On the other hand, a substantial number of the three dozen ridings on the opposition list were safe Conservative seats.

Take the Ontario riding of Wellington-Halton Hills. On May 2, former Conservative minister Michael Chong kept the seat with a majority of 26,000 and 63 per cent of the vote. He clearly needed no help to get re-elected.

Chong has emerged as one of the least partisan voices in Parliament. He resigned from Stephen Harper’s first cabinet over a matter of principle. It is hard to imagine that he would have countenanced party-sanctioned dirty tricks in his riding.

In Simcoe-Grey, the Conservatives won by more than 20,000 votes and the aggrieved Liberals ran fourth, behind the NDP and former Conservative incumbent Helena Guergis.

In the Toronto riding of Parkdale-High Park, both opposition parties have complained that their supporters were victims of early morning or late night calls from people misrepresenting themselves as volunteers for their campaigns. In Davenport, the NDP reported the same complaint.

The Conservatives did not really have a dog in either fight. They ran a distant third in both ridings.

And then did Justice Minister Rob Nicholson (majority 16,000 +) or Conservative incumbent Rick Dykstra (majority 13,000 +) seriously need a dose of dark arts to hang on their Niagara Falls and St. Catharines ridings?

A Machiavellian mastermind could always have orchestrated fraudulent calls to a host of ridings where such tricks were unlikely to affect the outcome for or against the Conservatives just to throw anyone off the scent of an orchestrated pattern.

But that sounds like a high-risk investment for a relatively low yield. The Conservative vote is not noticeably more vigorous in the ridings where the opposition is alleging that fraudulent calls took place than in comparable ones.

That is not to say that something is not rotten about the state of Canada’s electoral democracy or that the ruling Conservatives have no responsibility in that deteriorated state. But they are not alone.

Under Stephen Harper, the Conservatives have pushed the line of what is considered fair game in partisan politics.

It now basically sits on the divide between what is legal and what is not. The evidence suggests that the closer parties play to that line, the greater the chances that some of their partisans will cross it.

The Liberals just learned that the hard way when it was found that one of their staffers was responsible for leaking details of Public Safety Minister Vic Toews’ private life on Twitter.

Too often, the opposition has been prompt to follow the Conservatives down the same slippery slope.

On that score, the addiction of all federal parties to robo-calling is a telling development.

A technique originally used to dispense useful information to prospective supporters is being turned into an instrument of harassment.
When MP Lise St-Denis left the NDP to sit as a Liberal in January, the New Democrats hired a firm to robo-call her constituents of Saint-Maurice-Champlain.

The NDP was not identified as the sponsor of the calls and recipients were not told that if they pressed 1 to signal their displeasure with St-Denis, they would be re-directed to her riding office — where they swamped the phone lines for a number of days.

There is nothing illegal about the ploy and NDP strategists profess to be totally comfortable with it.

But should it have its place an ethically moral political environment?

Throwing rocks at the Conservatives with one hand will achieve little for the common good if the opposition parties are busy expanding their own glass houses with the other.

Canada News: Hébert: Robo-call accusations raise uncomfortable questions - thestar.com
 
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damngrumpy

Executive Branch Member
Mar 16, 2005
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Remember the candidate is ultimately responsible whether he or she knew is immaterial as the
candidate is to be informed of all actions and is the final stop in check and balance that is why a
riding can be overturned. The candidate is at the mercy of those in the campaign and saying the
candidate did not know is unfortunate but not a valid excuse.
Candidates are informed of this there is a series of papers that so few read including high profile
candidates. I read everything and I wish I had the original stuff here to comment there is a lot to
remember if you are the candidate. The penalties range from a five or ten thousand dollar fine,
to a jail term. to having the riding results overturned. And by the way if you are overturned you
as the candidate cannot re-run. You are expelled from office for at least five years as I recall.
 

Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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[URL="http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/columnists/94656--hebert-chantal" said:
Chantal Hébert[/URL];1553855]
The NDP was not identified as the sponsor of the calls and recipients were not told that if they pressed 1 to signal their displeasure with St-Denis, they would be re-directed to her riding office — where they swamped the phone lines for a number of days.

There is nothing illegal about the ploy and NDP strategists profess to be totally comfortable with it.

But should it have its place an ethically moral political environment?

If the strategists for any party were being frank, I'm sure they would all do the same.

An ethically moral political environment? Is there even such a place? It's not that there aren't ethical and moral politicians, it's just that they normally don't last. It's no different than the baseball players juicing because that's what they need to do to be competetive, to get those lucrative contracts. :lol:
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Most people don't lie, cheat or steal. But a few do and that tends to make everyone jaded. If someone is caught, then they must be held accountable for their actions.

I don't like Harper, but because of what he says and does. I don't hold Harper or any other candidate responsible for the actions of others. But if they knew or should have known, then let the chips fall where they may.
 

mentalfloss

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Jun 28, 2010
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I said earlier that unless there's a smoking gun, it will be tough to prove a systemic problem. This is seeming to be the case even with anecdotal evidence gradually revealed.

In the robo-call affair, time and the law favour the Tories

If the Robo-call affair does spiral out of control, North Bay, Ontario may become ground zero – the scene of a by-election that could gravely damage the Harper government.

But the odds against that by-election ever being called are high, which is why the Conservatives may well weather this latest controversy.

The NDP and Liberals allege that Tory operatives may have tried to rig the vote in a number of ridings across Canada by using automated calls that directed voters to non-existent polling stations. Impersonating an Elections Canada official is illegal and can land you in jail. Prime Minister Stephen Harper, however, strongly denies that anyone in the senior ranks of the national campaign knew of or condoned any illegal activity.

In the riding that is receiving the most attention, Guelph, the Liberals won the election. In others where allegations are flying, the Conservatives won by many thousands of votes. In both instances any dirty tricks were futile tricks. But Nipissing-Timiskaming is different.

Former Liberal MP Anthony Rota had held the Northern Ontario seat, dominated by the city of North Bay, since 2004, usually winning by comfortable margins. But last May, he lost it to Conservative MP Jay Aspin by a mere 18 votes.

At the time of the election, at least two voters complained to the returning officer that they had received calls falsely telling them that their polling location had been changed. Since the controversy broke last week, at least a dozen others have come forward claiming they received similar calls, according to Mr. Rota.

“At the time, everybody just thought it was a fluke,” Mr. Rota told The Globe and Mail’s Tamara Baluja. “It’s only now that all these reports are coming up that I think we’re realizing this was something more orchestrated.”

Mr. Aspin’s office declined a request for an interview. But in the North Bay Nugget he said that anyone who engaged in illegal activity should be charged.

“Let Elections Canada get to the bottom of this as soon as possible,” he said. “We can go from there.”

If there is enough evidence that enough voters were illegally deterred from voting to throw the Nipissing-Timiskaming result into question, a by-election could result that would be deeply embarrassing for the Conservatives. But how exactly does that happen? This is where circumstances favour the government.

Under the Canada Elections Act, any voter within a riding can apply for a judicial order nullifying the result of an election in that riding on the grounds of “irregularities, fraud or corrupt or illegal practices.”

In practice, no judge will entertain such a motion unless there is good evidence the irregularities could have put the outcome in doubt. Allegations involving a hundred voters won’t get very far if one side won by 10,000 votes. But Nipissing-Timiskaming was so close that it might not take much to get a judge’s attention.

An Elections Canada report alleging misdeeds in the riding would be the most credible evidence of potential fraud. But the Commissioner of Canada Elections typically makes no declaration about a riding unless and until it agrees with the Office of the Public Prosecutor to lay a charge. That might not happen for many months, if ever.


If there was sufficient evidence of wrongdoing in Nipissing–Timiskaming to bring that 18-vote plurality into doubt, a judge could nullify the election, which would force a by-election. But before that happened, either side could appeal the decision directly to the Supreme Court.

In other words, even if there was hanky-panky in the riding so serious that it warranted a by-election, if could take years before that by-election was called. It might even be overtaken by a general election.


No wonder the Conservatives are hunkering down on this one.

In the robo-call affair, time and the law favour the Tories - The Globe and Mail
 
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Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Remember the candidate is ultimately responsible whether he or she knew is immaterial as the
candidate is to be informed of all actions and is the final stop in check and balance that is why a
riding can be overturned. The candidate is at the mercy of those in the campaign and saying the
candidate did not know is unfortunate but not a valid excuse.
Candidates are informed of this there is a series of papers that so few read including high profile
candidates. I read everything and I wish I had the original stuff here to comment there is a lot to
remember if you are the candidate. The penalties range from a five or ten thousand dollar fine,
to a jail term. to having the riding results overturned. And by the way if you are overturned you
as the candidate cannot re-run. You are expelled from office for at least five years as I recall.

Not necessarily. A candidate has zero control over a rogue operative.