It's official: God didn't create universe

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
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You insist on separating consciousness from its physical counterpart while they should really be understood as being two sides of the same coin (at least the way I understand it). A functioning brain is the material and physical manifestation of consciousness. And human consciousness is what it actually feels like to be that brain (and the body).

Consciousness is not a 'feeling', it's simply an awareness. And I don't disagree that a physical body can experience consciousness subjectively. In fact I agree that consciousness can only be experienced subjectively even if it is transcendent. But if consciousness and its physical counterpart are one in the same, as you say, then why have two separate concepts? More importantly, how did consciousness as a separate entity even come into existence if it is just really 'brain waves' for instance?

The way I see it, they are both inseparable in the same way you can't separate concave from convex, or black from white. They are 2 sides of the same coin.
But despite the materiality being the same, the character of those concepts are different. A concave mirror has a different characteristic from a convex mirror. A black object has a different characteristic from a white object. Your position is that a conscious object has the same characteristic as a physical object - in this case a brain. The analogy doesn't quite work.

The only reason you can't find consciousness as an object is that it is not outside of you to objectify.
My body is a material object. I don't require it to be outside of itself for me to qualify it as an object. Of course, as we have agreed, the assertion that it is an object is a subjective assertion, but I can definitely say that it would qualify as an object even if it is also the subject.

Consciousness is a subjective state by definition. You can never look at your face directly because you are that face.
The experience of consciousness is subjective, yes. Imagine a wind blowing through your hair. That wind is outside of you, but you experience it subjectively. Now, other than the obvious fact that one could qualify wind as material and consciousness as nothingness, does not dispute that something external can be experienced subjectively. I don't disagree at all with the assertion that the experience is subjective.

That doesn't mean you can't recognize consciousness in others. All it means is that because consciousness is a subjective reality, you make a mistake in demanding that it be proved real by an objective method.
That doesn't quite follow. First, even science, to some degree can be wrong. So using the word 'objective' is a bit of a misnomer. But, yes, it would be quite difficult to objectively show something that does not exist objectively. The God conundrum is just one of those propositions.

The ''outside'' world isn't more real than our subjective and conscious ''inside'' world. They are both manifestations of one single reality.

Cogito ergo sum is the only proof you will ever need that you are conscious and if that doesn't convince you, I don't know what can.
Descartes Cogito has already been shown to be flawed by many continental philosophers of the 19th and 20th century. There is a fundamental assumption he makes in "I think therefore I am. " That fundamental flaw is the assumption that the party that is thinking is the same party that exists. In other words, the "I" actually exists before it thinks, and therefore thinking cannot be used to justify its existence.

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The Danish philosopher Søren Kierkegaard provided a critical response to the cogito.[3] Kierkegaard argues that the cogito already pre-supposes the existence of "I", and therefore concluding with existence is logically trivial. Kierkegaard's argument can be made clearer if one extracts the premise "I think" into two further premises:
"x" thinks
I am that "x"
Therefore I think
Therefore I am

Where "x" is used as a placeholder in order to disambiguate the "I" from the thinking thing.[4]
Here, the cogito has already assumed the "I"'s existence as that which thinks. For Kierkegaard, Descartes is merely "developing the content of a concept", namely that the "I", which already exists, thinks.[5]
Kierkegaard argues that the value of the cogito is not its logical argument, but its psychological appeal: a thought must have something that exists to think it. It is psychologically difficult to think "I do not exist". But as Kierkegaard argues, the proper logical flow of argument is that existence is already assumed or pre-supposed in order for thinking to occur, not that existence is concluded from that thinking.[6]

Cogito ergo sum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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In other words, you don't need to think in order to exist. You exist.

Similarly, you don't need to think to show that you are conscious as consciousness comes before thought. You are conscious. 'I see a book', 'I see a tree', 'I see a whatever'.. but I'm not thinking of those things in order to be aware of their existence.
 
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karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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bliss
In other words, you don't need to think in order to exist. You exist.

Similarly, you don't need to think to show that you are conscious as consciousness comes before thought. You are conscious. 'I see a book', 'I see a tree', 'I see a whatever'.. but I'm not thinking of those things in order to be aware of their existence.

All are material things acting upon a material body and being seen by material senses. You can not discuss consciousness without discussing something. It doesn't spring from nothing. It is grounded in measurable energy, and reacts to measurable stimuli (books trees whatever).
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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"We are spirit having a human experience." Don't remember who said that but I have heard it a lot. Consciousness is not thought. Thought is awareness and is an electrical impulse of the brain. IMO consciousness is something else that is separate from brain function. It is consciousness that manifests our physical being and thus our brain functions.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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Well, do you think spirit is born of nothing? Personally, I don't think so. The experiences I've had in my life tell me spirit is connected. How do you form a connection with nothing? :)
 

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
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Well, do you think spirit is born of nothing? Personally, I don't think so. The experiences I've had in my life tell me spirit is connected. How do you form a connection with nothing? :)

I think the important point to make is that this spirit or essence is something that you create over time. At the start, you have no spirit or essence and it is later constructed or entirely fabricated. Effectively, at the start, there is no 'you'.

I'm not going to go through the full explanation, but I would recommend reading this..

Existence precedes essence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tell me what your honest thoughts are. If it's a load of bull, has some validity, etc.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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Well, do you think spirit is born of nothing? Personally, I don't think so. The experiences I've had in my life tell me spirit is connected. How do you form a connection with nothing? :)
Consciousness is only nothing in the physical sense. Brain waves can be measured because they are electrical impulses. I don't think consciousness can be measured in any way that we know of. I agree that spirit is something but not something that can be measured. But then I have been studying and practicing Native Spirituality and metaphysics for a long time, so that is where my understanding comes from. I don't expect someone who has other belief systems to agree.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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I think the important point to make is that this spirit or essence is something that you create over time. At the start, you have no spirit or essence and it is later constructed or entirely fabricated. Effectively, at the start, there is no 'you'.

I'm not going to go through the full explanation, but I would recommend reading this..

Existence precedes essence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tell me what your honest thoughts are. If it's a load of bull, has some validity, etc.

I think it says pretty much what I've been saying, that something doesn't come from nothing, but rather, that it is built, shaped, influenced, by the forces it comes into contact with. And given the sheer numbers and varied nature of those forces, it's impossible to fully grasp what they will shape.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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If you take away the chemistry and electrical impulses, consciousness disappears, so, it is not 'from nothing'. It is dependent on the substances and processes occuring in the brain.

I think what some people refer to as "nothing" is probably something but in the abstract sense. Something in the concrete sense is called "matter", but that includes nothing in the abstract sense. (If you follow my meaning) :smile:
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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I think what some people refer to as "nothing" is probably something but in the abstract sense. Something in the concrete sense is called "matter", but that includes nothing in the abstract sense. (If you follow my meaning) :smile:

as in 'air is nothing'?
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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as in 'air is nothing'?


Sorry Karrie, that won't fly- back to Science 6 class for you. Take a bag and blow into it until it's full, now see if you can store that bag in the same space you could when it was empty. Now you take when a guy is blowing "hot air"- now THAT is "nothing". :lol::lol::lol:
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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285
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Sorry Karrie, that won't fly- back to Science 6 class for you. Take a bag and blow into it until it's full, now see if you can store that bag in the same space you could when it was empty. Now you take when a guy is blowing "hot air"- now THAT is "nothing". :lol::lol::lol:

yeah, but it strikes me as the same sort of thing... we know there's 'something' there, but until we can prove it with wind, or a demonstration of some sort, it's 'nothing' in much of our language. 'Vanished into thin air'.

In an abstract sense, it's nothing.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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yeah, but it strikes me as the same sort of thing... we know there's 'something' there, but until we can prove it with wind, or a demonstration of some sort, it's 'nothing' in much of our language. 'Vanished into thin air'.

In an abstract sense, it's nothing.
Air has molecules and a measurable density, although slight, it still is something.
 

Bcool

Dilettante
Aug 5, 2010
383
2
18
Vancouver Island B.C.
Descartes Cogito has already been shown to be flawed by many continental philosophers of the 19th and 20th century. There is a fundamental assumption he makes in "I think therefore I am. " That fundamental flaw is the assumption that the party that is thinking is the same party that exists. In other words, the "I" actually exists before it thinks, and therefore thinking cannot be used to justify its existence.

I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry! I abjectly apologize for doing this, but I just had to. Normal listening, learning, thinking will resume ASAP. ITMT:

Descartes once went into a coffee shop, sat down and ordered a cup of coffee.

After his thought filled moments during which he finished his coffee, the waitress asked him if he would like a refill.

Descartes politely replied, "I think not."

POOF! He was gone, disappeared, non-existent!!
----

 

s_lone

Council Member
Feb 16, 2005
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Consciousness is not a 'feeling', it's simply an awareness. And I don't disagree that a physical body can experience consciousness subjectively. In fact I agree that consciousness can only be experienced subjectively even if it is transcendent. But if consciousness and its physical counterpart are one in the same, as you say, then why have two separate concepts? More importantly, how did consciousness as a separate entity even come into existence if it is just really 'brain waves' for instance?

Why do we need two different concepts for consciousness and its physical counterpart?

Because there is a subject-object duality that is inherent in human existence. We can't escape from it. We need different words and concepts to express two sides of one reality.

Let's say your lover decides to dump you and that puts you in a state of emotional distress. On one hand, a neurologist could analyze your brain and determine which parts of your brain are under unusual chemical influence. But that is only half the picture (the objective part). From your subjective point of view, you feel very real emotions... a mix of sadness, despair and anger. You might need support from a good friend in times like these but you certainly won't show your friend the results of your brain analysis. That's no use because what you really need is to share your own subjective existence with someone else who can relate, because he or she also lives in the subjective sphere of life.

To put it more simply, for us humans, there is an important difference between ''anxiety'' and its neurological counterpart even though in the end, they are one and the same ontologically speaking.

How did consciousness as a separate entity even come into existence if it is just really 'brain waves' for instance?

Very good question. You might not agree with my answer and that's perfectly OK.

I don't understand ''consciousness'' as something that came into existence after matter. I see consciousness as having evolved with matter. The more complex matter gets in its organization, the more complex and rich consciousness becomes. So matter did exist before human consciousness. That's for sure. But consciousness itself has been there all along and has gradually evolved in parallel to matter.

The way I understand it, consciousness is the subjective aspect of reality in all levels of existence, from atoms to stars to human brains. As I already said, human consciousness is what a human brain feels like from the inside. Human consciousness is the subjective experience of being a brain (and its body of course).

If you go along this way of thinking, that means that even atoms have consciousness, but it's so far away from human consciousness that we'd have a hard time calling it that. Atomic consciousness is simply the state of being an atom. It's absolutely nothing like human consciousness, but it's something.

But despite the materiality being the same, the character of those concepts are different. A concave mirror has a different characteristic from a convex mirror. A black object has a different characteristic from a white object. Your position is that a conscious object has the same characteristic as a physical object - in this case a brain. The analogy doesn't quite work.

A concave mirror does have different characteristics from a convex mirror but they will simply be opposites. They are still an inseparable duality. You can't imagine a convex curve that isn't concave the other way.

My position is that a conscious subject is also a concrete object. Words like beauty, anxiety, sadness, truthfulness are all subjective realities. Nuclear forces, gravity, supernovas are all objective realities, but none is more real than the other. But of course, you can't compare gravity and beauty on the same levels. They need to be understood properly within their own contexts.

My body is a material object. I don't require it to be outside of itself for me to qualify it as an object. Of course, as we have agreed, the assertion that it is an object is a subjective assertion, but I can definitely say that it would qualify as an object even if it is also the subject.

It's a complex and slippery issue because one can view the body as both object and subject. When I say ''I my stomach hurts'', I'm objectifying my stomach and separating it from what I consider to be my ''awareness''. But when I say ''I'm suffering!'', I bring my body back into the subjective sphere.

The experience of consciousness is subjective, yes. Imagine a wind blowing through your hair. That wind is outside of you, but you experience it subjectively. Now, other than the obvious fact that one could qualify wind as material and consciousness as nothingness, does not dispute that something external can be experienced subjectively. I don't disagree at all with the assertion that the experience is subjective.

I don't know if it's fair to say that consciousness is nothingness. But maybe it is. Perhaps it's the ultimate canvas on which objective reality can unfold.

That doesn't quite follow. First, even science, to some degree can be wrong. So using the word 'objective' is a bit of a misnomer. But, yes, it would be quite difficult to objectively show something that does not exist objectively. The God conundrum is just one of those propositions.

I see what you mean. It's hard to prove great spaghetti monster isn't living at the bottom of the ocean even thought there is no good reason for to believe that there is a spaghetti monster in the first place. But the reason I'm responding is that you ask for some kind of proof that consciousness is something more than chemistry and electrical impulses. What I say is that the proof is right here, right now in the subjective existence we are experiencing.

I don't need any proof when I experience consciousness directly.

Do you?

Descartes Cogito has already been shown to be flawed by many continental philosophers of the 19th and 20th century. There is a fundamental assumption he makes in "I think therefore I am. " That fundamental flaw is the assumption that the party that is thinking is the same party that exists. In other words, the "I" actually exists before it thinks, and therefore thinking cannot be used to justify its existence.

I think Kierkegaard was way smarter than I am, but I'm not sure I follow his reasoning.

I agree that you can't have thought without consciousness. But if there IS thought, then surely there IS consciousness and I think that is what Descartes was going at.
 

Bcool

Dilettante
Aug 5, 2010
383
2
18
Vancouver Island B.C.
Consciousness is not a 'feeling', it's simply an awareness. And I don't disagree that a physical body can experience consciousness subjectively. In fact I agree that consciousness can only be experienced subjectively even if it is transcendent. But if consciousness and its physical counterpart are one in the same, as you say, then why have two separate concepts? More importantly, how did consciousness as a separate entity even come into existence if it is just really 'brain waves' for instance?

I want to get to your URLs, but first.... I don't buy the theory obviously, but there is the concept/argument put forth by some rather confusing nonsecular existential 'theological talking heads' I've heard expound as a fact that consciousness, being a separate entity and to we mere mortals appearing as nothing but yet out of which something is created, proves the existense of g*d. That g*d is that consciousness! Thus justifying the need to have the two separate concepts as you're pointing out the very valid question why the need/creation of the two. How would you respond to that concept?

IMHO, a deity "created" by human brain waves makes a far more cogent argument, considering the lack of evidence IMHO for any deity's existence, etc.

First, even science, to some degree can be wrong. So using the word 'objective' is a bit of a misnomer. But, yes, it would be quite difficult to objectively show something that does not exist objectively. The God conundrum is just one of those propositions.

Descartes Cogito has already been shown to be flawed by many continental philosophers of the 19th and 20th century. There is a fundamental assumption he makes in "I think therefore I am. " That fundamental flaw is the assumption that the party that is thinking is the same party that exists. In other words, the "I" actually exists before it thinks, and therefore thinking cannot be used to justify its existence.
I'm way out of my depth on this, but I have to raise Vilayanur S. "Rama" Ramachandran's rather awesome phantom limb treatments as a case that could be made where being in a "non-thinking" state and having to dispense with the "I" becomes essential to the success of the treatment? To be in a state of, what would one call it?, "second in command" perhaps in producing brain signals or brain thought processes requires what mental process on the part of the patient? S/he must somehow permit their brain to over-ride or ignore what they logically know cannot be otherwise; to let the brain perceive in the mirror image that which is not there and to perceive it as something, a physical limb which does not exist. To eventually perceive it to the point where the brain cannot think of it not existing and so the phantom limb symptoms disappear! If you'll pardon the pun, to some it may seem to be all being done with mirrors and hocus pocus. ;-) But it is now an accepted medical treatment the theory of which is already being researched for other neurological disorders.

Is this relative to the topic? I'm not sure. To me it seems so, but its very ephemeral stuff we're discussing here.

I think the important point to make is that this spirit or essence is something that you create over time. At the start, you have no spirit or essence and it is later constructed or entirely fabricated. Effectively, at the start, there is no 'you'.

I'm not going to go through the full explanation, but I would recommend reading this..

Existence precedes essence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tell me what your honest thoughts are. If it's a load of bull, has some validity, etc.
To me, it has immense validity.
 

CaptlstSocalist

New Member
Sep 23, 2010
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You know it's kinda funny how in the first part of the article if anybody read it, it presents this title of a book that some guy wrote to convey to all that there is no god. The Title was "The Grand Design". It's funny though because A design implies the existence of a designer... Perhaps God? I though that was kinda funny that the title refutes his book :)