Wisconsin Republicans - "No Room For Compromise"

[Cannuck]

Thousands of protesters surround Wisconsin Capitol - Yahoo! News

MADISON, Wis. – A state Capitol thrown into political chaos swelled for a fifth day with nearly 70,000 protesters, as supporters of Republican efforts to scrap the union rights of state workers challenged pro-labor protesters face-to-face for the first time and GOP leaders insisted again Saturday there was no room for compromise.

One of the many reasons why a middle-of-the-road guy like me can't support these people. Only fools draw lines in the sand and fools should not be in power.

 

[BaalsTears]

Thousands of protesters surround Wisconsin Capitol - Yahoo! News



One of the many reasons why a middle-of-the-road guy like me can't support these people. Only fools draw lines in the sand and fools should not be in power.

This is a post of mine from another thread on CC:

There is a struggle going on in America between two competing philosophies. The middle is rapidly disappearing. Everyone will ultimately have to make a choice and hope for the best.

Both sides have become radicalized. One side has embraced the ideal of individual liberty and personal freedom. The other side has embraced the ideal of equality.

The contest between these philosophies has shaped the perception of the federal govt. in the US. One side sees the federal govt. as the vehicle to achieve equality of result. The other side sees the federal govt. as the source of oppression.

The financial crisis in America and the greatest recession since the Great Depression has created a level of structural unemployment that has ripped away the mask and disguise of purported prosperity.

American private sector workers are now in direct competition with workers in the Third World. They are frightened because they realize that it generally doesn't make sense to create jobs in America from a cost/benefit standpoint. They realize their children will in many cases be unable to have a standard of living approaching the ones they have known.

At the same time American private sector workers see American public sector workers enjoying compensation, benefits and defined benefit pension plans that aren't available to private sector workers. This has caused a sea change in attitudes.

American public sector employees are now threatened with the loss of their superior wage, benefit and pension packages. This can be seen playing out in the State of Wisconsin.

One side will win, and the other side will have its ideology and dogma swept away. Americans now live in interesting times.


I know it's difficult for Canadians to understand what is happening in America because it is impossible to walk in another person's shoes. America is transitioning from one era to another. Both sides are equally radicalized. The chips will fall where they may.

 

[BaalsTears]

Something you might be interested in:
Madison Tea Party Protest | Wisconsin Unions | The Daily Caller - Breaking News, Opinion, Research, and Entertainment

This might help Canadians understand the debate in Wisconsin:
A Liberal Argument Against Public Sector Unions - Winds of Change.NET

 

[Tonington]

Well, from here in Canada, it appears to me at least that you don't even understand what the issue is in Wisconsin, nor does the so-called Liberal argument that you link to address the rights of employees to bargain collectively. That is the issue, that you so far have not actually commented on. The issue that is at the very heart of this thread.

 

[taxslave]

This is a post of mine from another thread on CC:

There is a struggle going on in America between two competing philosophies. The middle is rapidly disappearing. Everyone will ultimately have to make a choice and hope for the best.

Both sides have become radicalized. One side has embraced the ideal of individual liberty and personal freedom. The other side has embraced the ideal of equality.

The contest between these philosophies has shaped the perception of the federal govt. in the US. One side sees the federal govt. as the vehicle to achieve equality of result. The other side sees the federal govt. as the source of oppression.

The financial crisis in America and the greatest recession since the Great Depression has created a level of structural unemployment that has ripped away the mask and disguise of purported prosperity.

American private sector workers are now in direct competition with workers in the Third World. They are frightened because they realize that it generally doesn't make sense to create jobs in America from a cost/benefit standpoint. They realize their children will in many cases be unable to have a standard of living approaching the ones they have known.

At the same time American private sector workers see American public sector workers enjoying compensation, benefits and defined benefit pension plans that aren't available to private sector workers. This has caused a sea change in attitudes.

American public sector employees are now threatened with the loss of their superior wage, benefit and pension packages. This can be seen playing out in the State of Wisconsin.

One side will win, and the other side will have its ideology and dogma swept away. Americans now live in interesting times.


I know it's difficult for Canadians to understand what is happening in America because it is impossible to walk in another person's shoes. America is transitioning from one era to another. Both sides are equally radicalized. The chips will fall where they may.

The same is slowly happening here. Of course as Canadians we are much more civilized in our discussions. But the basics are the same. The bureaucracy has decided they are entitled to their version of Nirvana regardless of what is happening in the real world. Recently on of the teachers union representatives here said that they are entitled to a raise. This while thousands are out of work, working part time, working in low paid dead end jobs, gone to Ft. McMoney to work etc. What amazes me is that there has not been a taxpayer revolt yet.

 

[captain morgan]

Recently on of the teachers union representatives here said that they are entitled to a raise. This while thousands are out of work, working part time, working in low paid dead end jobs, gone to Ft. McMoney to work etc. What amazes me is that there has not been a taxpayer revolt yet.

What you are starting to see happen is that the gvts are retracting their (previous) underlying support for teh unions, the education example is especially telling... There are more and more Charter and Private schools opening every year. This is (in part) a response to the families wanting/willing to pay out of pocket for a special service, but the other side is that it is a reaction to the monopoly that teh teachers union has on the sector.

 

[Cannuck]

What amazes me is that there has not been a taxpayer revolt yet.

The problem is that for all the whining taxpayers do, they still look to the government to solve their problems. You can't reasonably demand cuts to government and then complain that the snow is piling up on your street. People have forgotten how to take care of themselves. That is one of the reasons teachers keep demanding more. They keep doing more and more is expected of them. It's a vicious circle and turning it into a virtuous circle requires nothing short of a complete upheaval of the system.

 

[captain morgan]

The teachers (at least the ATA in AB) refuse to be held to a standard that is related to anything that is a measuring stick. One of teh more recent events witnessed the ATA demanding a raise solely because the Nurses union got one. Now that the province has more Charter schools in play (and Private), the ATA is being held to account (in terms of results) because there is an independent alternative.

The point here is that the pendulum has swung past the center point and is not favourable to any union presence.

 

[Cannuck]

The teachers (at least the ATA in AB) refuse to be held to a standard that is related to anything that is a measuring stick. ...

Would you like to be measured against a standard when you have no ability do what you think needs doing? Government works on policies and SOG's and front line workers are criticized and reprimanded if they stray from the course. Results are not what they are judge on. How well they work in the system is what matters to their employer. Don't blame the teachers because their employers can't figure out what they want.

 

[captain morgan]

Would you like to be measured against a standard when you have no ability do what you think needs doing?

Sorry, but you comment is not entirely correct. The ATA goes on strike, or threatens to do so, based on changing the system to better suit themselves and the students. It's just that when it comes down to implementing the actual changes through contract negotiations, they opt for a pay increase.

Government works on policies and SOG's and front line workers are criticized and reprimanded if they stray from the course.

The leverage those inadequate policies in order to benefit personally... No one blames the ATA for a poor system, but the sympathy soon wanes for them when other Charter/Private schools that are faced with the same goals, receiving the same funding and teaching the same curriculum are out preforming them year in and year out.

The same examples exist in road works (private sector) and the privatization of other areas.

Results are not what they are judge on. How well they work in the system is what matters to their employer. Don't blame the teachers because their employers can't figure out what they want.

See above RE: Charters and Private schools.

 

[Cannuck]

... No one blames the ATA for a poor system, but the sympathy soon wanes for them when other Charter/Private schools that are faced with the same goals, receiving the same funding and teaching the same curriculum are out preforming them year in and year out.

I'm sorry, you can not compare private schools with public schools. Parents that send their kids to private schools are engaged in their child's education. While some parents in the public system may be engaged, there are large numbers that aren't. Good performance at school begins at home. Without realizing it, you have proved my point.

The same examples exist in road works (private sector) and the privatization of other areas.

Road works....how so?

 

[Machjo]

Thousands of protesters surround Wisconsin Capitol - Yahoo! News



One of the many reasons why a middle-of-the-road guy like me can't support these people. Only fools draw lines in the sand and fools should not be in power.

I'm not particularly pro-union myself, but there is a way to go about this. It would probably be better wo weaken unions gradually than to try to stamp them out overnight.

Also, establish ing alternatives to unions would help fill the void. One example would be the democratization of the economy via co-determination legislation or something of the sort.

Rather than ban unions, how about simply not giving them any legal powers. They'd exist but strictly outside the context of the law. Not necessarily illegally, but simply as unofficial organizations not recognized under the law.

 

[captain morgan]

I'm sorry, you can not compare private schools with public schools. Parents that send their kids to private schools are engaged in their child's education. While some parents in the public system may be engaged, there are large numbers that aren't. Good performance at school begins at home. Without realizing it, you have proved my point.

I disagree with the comment about not being able to compare public vs private, but if it suits you, compare the Charters with the public system.

In terms of the comment about the parents being engaged, I fully agree. In fact, I'll take it one step further in saying the student needs to shoulder the biggest responsibility and that (at younger ages) absolutely needs the family to be heavily vested. One of the problems is that too many parents see the education system as a state sponsored day care. That said, there is no way that a teacher can 'force' education to happen.

But the aforementioned is more of an ideological perspective. The biggest problem with the ATA is that they are politically motivated. When was the last time that the threat of a strike that was based on classroom sizes was NOT solved through a negotiated salary increase (and basically forgot about class sizes)?

The ATA is playing politics. In this recent downturn, median incomes of the rest of society have dropped, but the ATA demands an increase to "keep up with the Jones' ".

Bottom-line; few people have a problem with increasing the teacher's wages, but without any basis for why that increase should occur, it is nothing but an expression of entitlement.

Road works....how so?

In AB, all of the road construction and infrastructure construction is contracted-out to the private sector.... Since this event, there have been very few issues that compare to the labour strife experienced when it was done through CUPE (or whomever) and teh projects are (by in large) coming in on budget (or within a reasonable % that is set in the contract).

 

[Cannuck]

In AB, all of the road construction and infrastructure construction is contracted-out to the private sector.... Since this event, there have been very few issues that compare to the labour strife experienced when it was done through CUPE (or whomever) and teh projects are (by in large) coming in on budget (or within a reasonable % that is set in the contract).

That's funny because Volker Stevin (who has a contract with the Province) subcontracts the local County (County workers are CUPE members) for work because they don't have the resources. The County spends a ridiculous amount of time working on provincial highways. In many cases, all the province did is shift work from provincial employees to municipal employees. They could have done that without middlemen like Volker. It appears to me that you are not familiar with the nuts and bolts of the system and are trying to lay the blame for all the problems at the feet of the unions. That is unfair. The main problem, be it the education system or the road system is a lack of effective problem solving. Politicians are involving themselves in the strategic level of operations and they should really but out. The cause of this is that the public (not understanding proper command structures) demand that their representatives engage themselves at the strategic level.

 

[captain morgan]

That's funny because Volker Stevin (who has a contract with the Province) subcontracts the local County (County workers are CUPE members) for work because they don't have the resources. The County spends a ridiculous amount of time working on provincial highways. In many cases, all the province did is shift work from provincial employees to municipal employees. They could have done that without middlemen like Volker.

Volker Stevin is still on the hook regardless of who they subcontract to. Chances are that CUPE had to bid on the job offered by Volker and, lo and behold, no strikes, no unrest and no blackmailing the community.

The reference to V.S. being the middle man (and therefore unnecessary) is misleading... My question, if the contract was put out to tender (as I believe it was), how come CUPE did not win the contract and presuming that they did bid (which I suspect, but do not know for sure), clearly their bid was uncompetitive, yet, here they are doing the work.

It appears to me that you are not familiar with the nuts and bolts of the system and are trying to lay the blame for all the problems at the feet of the unions. That is unfair. The main problem, be it the education system or the road system is a lack of effective problem solving. Politicians are involving themselves in the strategic level of operations and they should really but out. The cause of this is that the public (not understanding proper command structures) demand that their representatives engage themselves at the strategic level.

I don't disagree (in principle) with your comments, but the fact still remains, society has a product/service that is equal to or better than what was delivered under the union program. Factor in the absence of labour strife and the blackmailing that went on and it is clear that society (in general) is the winner.

 

[ironsides]

Thousands of protesters surround Wisconsin Capitol - Yahoo! News



One of the many reasons why a middle-of-the-road guy like me can't support these people. Only fools draw lines in the sand and fools should not be in power.

There is no reason why newly employed individuals must get the same benefits as those hired before them. That is what is going on in a nutshell.


A company or governmental organization wants to cut health costs, you either reduce personal or have them pay a percentage of their healthcare. There is no room for compromise.

 

[Tonington]

There is no reason why newly employed individuals must get the same benefits as those hired before them. That is what is going on in a nutshell.


A company or governmental organization wants to cut health costs, you either reduce personal or have them pay a percentage of their healthcare. There is no room for compromise.

You're missing it too. The Democrats are offering to return to the capital, if the Republicans will remove the section of a bill that takes away the employees right to collective bargaining. In other words, they are fine with the cost-saving measures. The compromise is the part about bargaining.

 

[BaalsTears]

Well, from here in Canada, it appears to me at least that you don't even understand what the issue is in Wisconsin, nor does the so-called Liberal argument that you link to address the rights of employees to bargain collectively. That is the issue, that you so far have not actually commented on. The issue that is at the very heart of this thread.

I understand very well what this is about. It is ultimately about political power. One side will gain political power and the other side will lose political power.

You're missing it too. The Democrats are offering to return to the capital, if the Republicans will remove the section of a bill that takes away the employees right to collective bargaining. In other words, they are fine with the cost-saving measures. The compromise is the part about bargaining.

Life is a game within a game within a game. Economic collapse is forcing the Democrats to temporarily adopt the tactic of compromise. Democrats are on defense because the forces of history are rising against them.

Taxpayers in America support public employees who very often enjoy a higher standard of living than the taxpayers who support them. The awareness of this fact is now indisputable because the financial crisis has ripped away the mask and disguise of the public sector employees in America.

Please note that the public sector workers are not offering to switch from the unaffordable defined benefit pension plans they enjoy to the type of defined contribution pension plans that most private sector employees are forced to rely upon.

 

[ironsides]

You're missing it too. The Democrats are offering to return to the capital, if the Republicans will remove the section of a bill that takes away the employees right to collective bargaining. In other words, they are fine with the cost-saving measures. The compromise is the part about bargaining.

Union busting, guess so, but they are part of the problem also. It is also against the law for government employees to strike.

 

[Tonington]

I understand very well what this is about. It is ultimately about political power. One side will gain political power and the other side will lose political power.

That's not saying very much about anything at all. You could say that about any bill that politicians are working on.