You might not like Obama's promises

Avro

Time Out
Feb 12, 2007
7,815
65
48
54
Oshawa
CHICAGO—He supports the death penalty for heinous crimes, while acknowledging that capital punishment is likely not a deterrent.
He is opposed to same-sex marriage, though noting that time may prove he's on the wrong side of history on this issue.
He wants more combat troops in Afghanistan, while vowing to take American soldiers out of Iraq within 16 months of assuming office.
He had himself baptized as a Christian in adulthood.
Barack Obama is not the Canadian version of a liberal politician, even while occupying the far left – as a United States senator – of the political spectrum. In Canadian terms, he'd barely qualify as a Red Tory.
This may all underscore how far to the right America has listed in recent years, or how vast the chasm between what much of the world considers progressive and how that term is defined in this country.
An overwhelming majority of Canadians adore Obama, would have swept him into the Oval Office with a record-setting trouncing of the Republican party. Indeed, it often seemed as if Canadians were resentful of the fact they couldn't vote in another nation's election; as if they should be able to impact another's political topography.
Of course, Obama-mania is an extraordinary phenomenon 'round the globe, which augers well for the U.S. reclaiming moral stature internationally. Comparatively, the president-incoming is the flip side of the president-outgoing, George W. Bush, and all the neo-conservative ideology embodied by this White House.
But, on the testimony as Obama has provided it – in his own words, in two memoirs – he simply is not as perceived by many in his thrall. The fault isn't that he's misrepresented himself; Obama has been quite candid about his beliefs, values and objectives. Yet many seem not to have been listening, or perhaps just tuning out the bits that rankle, parts that don't fit into their idealized characterization of Obama as antidote to what came before.
"I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own values," he once said.
While rejecting all stereotypes of race, Obama has been equally dismissive of pro forma liberalism, or what he wryly called the "latte-sipping Lakefront liberals," to put a local Chicago flavour on a type we all recognize.
In The Audacity of Hope, the then-junior senator from Illinois wrote about the failure of liberal governments in the U.S., an elitist disconnect from the lives of ordinary Americans that was so effectively exploited by Ronald Reagan.
Reagan exaggerated the sins of the welfare state but he tapped into a middle-America, middle-class exhaustion; a disenchantment with highbrow Democrats who derided their values. "A lot of liberal rhetoric did seem to value rights and entitlements over duties and responsibilities," Obama wrote.
Obama has values. You just might not like them. What he has promised, however, is that he won't be held hostage to his own certainties either. That way lies same-old partisanship and polarized governance.
The difference Obama draws between values and ideology: "Values are faithfully applied to the facts before us, while ideology overrides whatever facts call theory into question."
It is America's business where it decides to go under an Obama administration, no doubt to be influenced by the judges he nominates for the Supreme Court. But Canadians weary of losses in Kandahar might be in for a rude awakening when, as commander-in-chief, this president does exactly as promised: Muscles up the U.S. war against terrorism in Afghanistan, asking for more – not less – from its NATO allies. Obama has been even more hawkish than McCain about running Al Qaeda and Taliban belligerents to ground in their Pakistan sanctuaries.
He has so many promises to keep. Not all will be so sweetly received as getting a puppy for his daughters in the White House.

Toronto Star
 

scratch

Senate Member
May 20, 2008
5,658
22
38
CHICAGO—He supports the death penalty for heinous crimes, while acknowledging that capital punishment is likely not a deterrent.
He is opposed to same-sex marriage, though noting that time may prove he's on the wrong side of history on this issue.
He wants more combat troops in Afghanistan, while vowing to take American soldiers out of Iraq within 16 months of assuming office.
He had himself baptized as a Christian in adulthood.
Barack Obama is not the Canadian version of a liberal politician, even while occupying the far left – as a United States senator – of the political spectrum. In Canadian terms, he'd barely qualify as a Red Tory.
This may all underscore how far to the right America has listed in recent years, or how vast the chasm between what much of the world considers progressive and how that term is defined in this country.
An overwhelming majority of Canadians adore Obama, would have swept him into the Oval Office with a record-setting trouncing of the Republican party. Indeed, it often seemed as if Canadians were resentful of the fact they couldn't vote in another nation's election; as if they should be able to impact another's political topography.
Of course, Obama-mania is an extraordinary phenomenon 'round the globe, which augers well for the U.S. reclaiming moral stature internationally. Comparatively, the president-incoming is the flip side of the president-outgoing, George W. Bush, and all the neo-conservative ideology embodied by this White House.
But, on the testimony as Obama has provided it – in his own words, in two memoirs – he simply is not as perceived by many in his thrall. The fault isn't that he's misrepresented himself; Obama has been quite candid about his beliefs, values and objectives. Yet many seem not to have been listening, or perhaps just tuning out the bits that rankle, parts that don't fit into their idealized characterization of Obama as antidote to what came before.
"I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own values," he once said.
While rejecting all stereotypes of race, Obama has been equally dismissive of pro forma liberalism, or what he wryly called the "latte-sipping Lakefront liberals," to put a local Chicago flavour on a type we all recognize.
In The Audacity of Hope, the then-junior senator from Illinois wrote about the failure of liberal governments in the U.S., an elitist disconnect from the lives of ordinary Americans that was so effectively exploited by Ronald Reagan.
Reagan exaggerated the sins of the welfare state but he tapped into a middle-America, middle-class exhaustion; a disenchantment with highbrow Democrats who derided their values. "A lot of liberal rhetoric did seem to value rights and entitlements over duties and responsibilities," Obama wrote.
Obama has values. You just might not like them. What he has promised, however, is that he won't be held hostage to his own certainties either. That way lies same-old partisanship and polarized governance.
The difference Obama draws between values and ideology: "Values are faithfully applied to the facts before us, while ideology overrides whatever facts call theory into question."
It is America's business where it decides to go under an Obama administration, no doubt to be influenced by the judges he nominates for the Supreme Court. But Canadians weary of losses in Kandahar might be in for a rude awakening when, as commander-in-chief, this president does exactly as promised: Muscles up the U.S. war against terrorism in Afghanistan, asking for more – not less – from its NATO allies. Obama has been even more hawkish than McCain about running Al Qaeda and Taliban belligerents to ground in their Pakistan sanctuaries.
He has so many promises to keep. Not all will be so sweetly received as getting a puppy for his daughters in the White House.

Toronto Star

True.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
The Sucker Bait Called Hope

Making the Best of a Slow Apocalypse
by Joe Bageant / November 20th, 2008 (10)
We just concluded an election in which both parties talked about hope, one more so than the other. Hope, that murky, undefined belief that some unknown force, perhaps Jesus or modern science or some great political leader, or other as yet unknown force will reverse our national or personal condition . . . will deliver us from what every bit of evidence indicates is irreversible, if not politically, then ecologically: Decline and eventual collapse. There is quite a difference between hope and understanding the facts, then holding justified optimism. Hope is magical thinking, a sucker’s game. Politicians the world round …
(Full article …)
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Obama and Lieberman: Two of a Kind

by Margaret Kimberley / November 19th, 2008 (11)
Connecticut’s Democratic Senator Joseph Lieberman is an unrepentant proponent of United States government terror. He was enthusiastically in favor of the occupation of Iraq, advocating for war even before George W. Bush became president. Lieberman is the most vocal cheer leader for war against Iran, telling shameful lies about that nation in hopes of seeing the United States and Israel carry out a military attack. He is openly contemptuous of the rest of the Democratic Party, literally kissing Bush on the lips at the 2006 State of the Union address.
Whatever else may be said about him, Lieberman is not stupid. …
(Full article …)
 

scratch

Senate Member
May 20, 2008
5,658
22
38
CHICAGO—He supports the death penalty for heinous crimes, while acknowledging that capital punishment is likely not a deterrent.
He is opposed to same-sex marriage, though noting that time may prove he's on the wrong side of history on this issue.
He wants more combat troops in Afghanistan, while vowing to take American soldiers out of Iraq within 16 months of assuming office.
He had himself baptized as a Christian in adulthood.
Barack Obama is not the Canadian version of a liberal politician, even while occupying the far left – as a United States senator – of the political spectrum. In Canadian terms, he'd barely qualify as a Red Tory.
This may all underscore how far to the right America has listed in recent years, or how vast the chasm between what much of the world considers progressive and how that term is defined in this country.
An overwhelming majority of Canadians adore Obama, would have swept him into the Oval Office with a record-setting trouncing of the Republican party. Indeed, it often seemed as if Canadians were resentful of the fact they couldn't vote in another nation's election; as if they should be able to impact another's political topography.
Of course, Obama-mania is an extraordinary phenomenon 'round the globe, which augers well for the U.S. reclaiming moral stature internationally. Comparatively, the president-incoming is the flip side of the president-outgoing, George W. Bush, and all the neo-conservative ideology embodied by this White House.
But, on the testimony as Obama has provided it – in his own words, in two memoirs – he simply is not as perceived by many in his thrall. The fault isn't that he's misrepresented himself; Obama has been quite candid about his beliefs, values and objectives. Yet many seem not to have been listening, or perhaps just tuning out the bits that rankle, parts that don't fit into their idealized characterization of Obama as antidote to what came before.
"I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own values," he once said.
While rejecting all stereotypes of race, Obama has been equally dismissive of pro forma liberalism, or what he wryly called the "latte-sipping Lakefront liberals," to put a local Chicago flavour on a type we all recognize.
In The Audacity of Hope, the then-junior senator from Illinois wrote about the failure of liberal governments in the U.S., an elitist disconnect from the lives of ordinary Americans that was so effectively exploited by Ronald Reagan.
Reagan exaggerated the sins of the welfare state but he tapped into a middle-America, middle-class exhaustion; a disenchantment with highbrow Democrats who derided their values. "A lot of liberal rhetoric did seem to value rights and entitlements over duties and responsibilities," Obama wrote.
Obama has values. You just might not like them. What he has promised, however, is that he won't be held hostage to his own certainties either. That way lies same-old partisanship and polarized governance.
The difference Obama draws between values and ideology: "Values are faithfully applied to the facts before us, while ideology overrides whatever facts call theory into question."
It is America's business where it decides to go under an Obama administration, no doubt to be influenced by the judges he nominates for the Supreme Court. But Canadians weary of losses in Kandahar might be in for a rude awakening when, as commander-in-chief, this president does exactly as promised: Muscles up the U.S. war against terrorism in Afghanistan, asking for more – not less – from its NATO allies. Obama has been even more hawkish than McCain about running Al Qaeda and Taliban belligerents to ground in their Pakistan sanctuaries.
He has so many promises to keep. Not all will be so sweetly received as getting a puppy for his daughters in the White House.

Toronto Star

Probably the fifth time that I have said this...he really committed himself to nothing during the election..then bang..the snake appears...America will rue the day that they were so happy. Happy to just get rid of Busharoo &Co. probably, a child of twelve would have been a better Prez. Now look what they have .

THEY never change...same old, same old and no doubt PO & BO will get along famously as our people die for what...and usually from friendly fire.

Some deal this became.

Sucks.

rgs
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
11,956
56
48
Ontario
So what is your point, Avro, I have known it for a long time that Obama is too conservative for me, indeed too conservative for most Canadians. With his views on gay marriage, universal health care, abortion etc., if he had to run in Canada, he will have to run as the leader of Conservative Party. Now, while he will be a big improvement over Harper, I still wouldn’t vote for him.

I remember in the other forum, canada.com when I said to an American poster that Obama is too conservative for me, he was shocked. He asked me, ‘just how much of a left wing radical are you?’

He obviously had no idea that in USA, the political spectrum is shifted way to the right compared to Canada or Europe. A liberal in USA is a conservative in Canada.

So while I was happy to see Obama win, I have known all along that he is too conservative for me, if he were to run in Canada, I wouldn’t vote for him. However, if I had been a US citizen, I would vote for him.
 

Avro

Time Out
Feb 12, 2007
7,815
65
48
54
Oshawa
So what is your point, Avro,


I didn't write the article, I posted it.

But I believe the article was written for the liberals in this country who think Obama is some sort of God when in reality he is more to the right than Harper is.

You see this but many people don't.
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
95
48
USA
I think Canadians will find a lot to not like in this guy. I may even agree with them.
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
11,956
56
48
Ontario
I think Canadians will find a lot to not like in this guy. I may even agree with them.

I don’t think so. While he is too conservative for Canada, he is too liberal for USA; he was mainly elected because of the economy. I like him a lot for USA (if perhaps not for Canada).


However, he can do a lot to secure the minority rights while he is in power. He can pass the freedom of choice act, which will guarantee that abortion remains legal in USA. He could change military policy towards gays and let gays serve openly in the military, repeal the defense of marriage act etc.

He has a window of two years, in 2010 Republicans may well regain control of the House and the Senate. He has two years to pass his agenda, so he better get cracking.
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
95
48
USA
I don’t think so. While he is too conservative for Canada, he is too liberal for USA; he was mainly elected because of the economy. I like him a lot for USA (if perhaps not for Canada).

I still think he will not be well liked after awhile up there.


However, he can do a lot to secure the minority rights while he is in power. He can pass the freedom of choice act, which will guarantee that abortion remains legal in USA. He could change military policy towards gays and let gays serve openly in the military, repeal the defense of marriage act etc.

The President cannot just ram through legislation and cannot guarantee that abortion or anything remains legal. Besides, the Supreme Court has already declared that abortion is a legal right. Any Presidential writ can be swept away by the next president as Clinton did to Bush and Reagan's and Bush Jr. did to Clinton's. That is part of the joy of winning, you can change things but when you lose they can be changed right back.

He has a window of two years, in 2010 Republicans may well regain control of the House and the Senate. He has two years to pass his agenda, so he better get cracking.

You're right. If he upsets enough voters the Dems will get trounced just like the GOP got trounced a few years ago.
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
11,956
56
48
Ontario
The President cannot just ram through legislation and cannot guarantee that abortion or anything remains legal.

EagelSmack, sure the President can guarantee abortion rights or any other right by passing the legislation.

Besides, the Supreme Court has already declared that abortion is a legal right.

Supreme Court is just one vote away from reversing Roe vs. Wade. If McCain had won, Roe vs. Wade would have been over turned within the next 2 or 3 years, after McCain had appointed one Supreme Court judge. Older judges are liberal, and so a liberal is more likely to retire than a conservative.

Now that Obama is elected, he can maintain the balance on Supreme Court. However, he cannot tilt it in favour of liberals, since next 2 or 3 judges who retire are likely to be liberals.

If any conservative wants to retire, he will wait 4 or 8 years for a Republican President to be elected. Which means that rather than Roe being reversed within the next 2 or 3 years, it will probably be reversed within the next 5 to 10 years. Obama presidency has bought some time. However, it has merely postponed the evil day.

Freedom f Choice act, if passed will act as a backstop for abortion rights, even if Supreme Court reversed Roe, abortion will still stay legal.

Any Presidential writ can be swept away by the next president as Clinton did to Bush and Reagan's and Bush Jr. did to Clinton's.

That is true for the writ, but not the law passed by the Congress and signed by the President. In the new Congress, Democrats will have comfortable majorities in both houses, so this may be the right time to pass some legislation.

It won’t be easy for Republicans to reverse the laws passed by the democrats. In order to do so, Republicans must get comfortable majorities in both Houses and also must capture presidency. It can be done, but it is a tall order (and cannot be done for at least four years).
 

scratch

Senate Member
May 20, 2008
5,658
22
38
Republicans had their standing destroyed by Georgie, Dick & Condi as well as Johnny....no changes any time soon after legislation is passed.
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
95
48
USA
The President cannot just ram through legislation and cannot guarantee that abortion or anything remains legal.

EagelSmack, sure the President can guarantee abortion rights or any other right by passing the legislation.

Besides, the Supreme Court has already declared that abortion is a legal right.

The last sentence says it all. The Supreme Court has already assured that abortion is legal. The President alone cannot guarentee such things.

Supreme Court is just one vote away from reversing Roe vs. Wade. If McCain had won, Roe vs. Wade would have been over turned within the next 2 or 3 years, after McCain had appointed one Supreme Court judge. Older judges are liberal, and so a liberal is more likely to retire than a conservative.

There have been a few Supreme Court Justices that have been appointed by conservative Presidents but have not always ruled in consevative fashion. The same goes for liberal Presidents.

Now that Obama is elected, he can maintain the balance on Supreme Court. However, he cannot tilt it in favour of liberals, since next 2 or 3 judges who retire are likely to be liberals.

Good point

If any conservative wants to retire, he will wait 4 or 8 years for a Republican President to be elected. Which means that rather than Roe being reversed within the next 2 or 3 years, it will probably be reversed within the next 5 to 10 years. Obama presidency has bought some time. However, it has merely postponed the evil day.

I do not believe that the Supreme Court will ever overturn Roe v Wade no matter what the make up of the court is. Just because a justice is conservative does not mean that he is against abortion rights. A man like Pat Robertson would never pass Congressional approval.

Freedom f Choice act, if passed will act as a backstop for abortion rights, even if Supreme Court reversed Roe, abortion will still stay legal.

Not if the Supreme Court says it is Unconstitutional it won't. The Supreme Court has just as much power as the President and Congress in determining what is legal in the Constitution. They have more power. The Justice System can easily wipe a popular vote with a stroke of the pen. Look at Question 8 in California a few years ago. It was passed overwhelmingly by the people of California and it refused certain American rights to illegal immigrants. A judge out there said that it was Unconstitutional and that was that.

Any Presidential writ can be swept away by the next president as Clinton did to Bush and Reagan's and Bush Jr. did to Clinton's.
That is true for the writ, but not the law passed by the Congress and signed by the President. In the new Congress, Democrats will have comfortable majorities in both houses, so this may be the right time to pass some legislation.

They can pass legislation as they do own both houses and the Executive Office. But they must chose wisely so as to not upset the people that voted them in. Just like the GOP was voted out for being lock step with Bush so can the Democrats be voted out for being lock step with Obama.

It won’t be easy for Republicans to reverse the laws passed by the democrats. In order to do so, Republicans must get comfortable majorities in both Houses and also must capture presidency. It can be done, but it is a tall order (and cannot be done for at least four years).

It will be just as easy as it was for the Democrats. In Clinton's 2nd year in office all of the Democrats were flushed away and the GOP took over almost over night. They had full control of both houses and the Executive Office and rammed unpopular legislation through. They paid for that.
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
95
48
USA
Republicans had their standing destroyed by Georgie, Dick & Condi as well as Johnny....no changes any time soon after legislation is passed.

No question about how they had their standing squashed but the Democrats can lose control just as quickly during the next midterms.
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
11,956
56
48
Ontario
I do not believe that the Supreme Court will ever overturn Roe v Wade no matter what the make up of the court is. Just because a justice is conservative does not mean that he is against abortion rights. A man like Pat Robertson would never pass Congressional approval.

EagelSmack, currently 4 justices out of nine favor overturning Roe vs. Wade. The last time it was considered, the vote was 5 to 4 in favor of upholding it. When Bush replaced Sandra Day O’Connor by Roberts, that changed the make up of the court from 6 to 3 in favor of Roe to 5 to 4 in favor.

McCain was committed to appointing judges who will overturn Roe (as will be the next Republican President). Republican base wants Roe overturned; every Republican President will try to overturn it by appointing judges who are opposed to Roe.

If the judge is a conservative, chances are very good that he wants to overturn Roe.

There have been a few Supreme Court Justices that have been appointed by conservative Presidents but have not always ruled in conservative fashion.

That was true in old days, during the days of Eisenhower, Nixon, Reagan etc. However, recently Republican Presidents have had great success in appointing anti-Roe judges. The first Bush appointed Clarence Thomas, one of the most conservative members of Supreme Court and a string, staunch opponent of Roe. Same with Roberts and Alito, both are strong opponents of Roe. Republican Presidents have learned how to weed out the faint hearted and appoint only the true believers in the cause.

Not if the Supreme Court says it is Unconstitutional it won't.

And what makes you think that Supreme Court will rule freedom of choice act unconstitutional?

It will be just as easy as it was for the Democrats. In Clinton's 2nd year in office all of the Democrats were flushed away and the GOP took over almost over night. They had full control of both houses and the Executive Office and rammed unpopular legislation through. They paid for that.

It was not easy for Democrats. After 1994, Democrats had to wait for twelve years before they got control of the Congress and the Presidency. Similarly Republicans may have taken control of Congress just 2 years after Clinton was elected. However, it took them a further six years to regain the Presidency.

It is not easy for either party to control both the Congress and the Presidency. Democrats do have that control so they should pass some legislation which they otherwise would not be able to, freedom of choice act being one of them.,
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
95
48
USA
Not if the Supreme Court says it is Unconstitutional it won't.

And what makes you think that Supreme Court will rule freedom of choice act unconstitutional?

I did not think that. I am stating that if they want to they can. Just like they granted cities and town the right to kick private residences out of their property if the municipalities want to develop their land. It sounds very Unconstitutional...but the Supreme Court said it IS Constitutional for municipalities to seize land.

It was not easy for Democrats. After 1994, Democrats had to wait for twelve years before they got control of the Congress and the Presidency. Similarly Republicans may have taken control of Congress just 2 years after Clinton was elected. However, it took them a further six years to regain the Presidency.

But it can swing the other way pretty quick if conditions are right. Americans do not like Liberals. They may like the thought of change but start ramming Uppity, Do-right, elitist legislation in that alienates the majority and it is lights out.

It is not easy for either party to control both the Congress and the Presidency. Democrats do have that control so they should pass some legislation which they otherwise would not be able to, freedom of choice act being one of them.,

Roe v Wade is safe. The right to chose is safe. The majority of Americans agree to Women's Choice. Pro-Choice Advocates like to scare and are fervent but it isn't going anywhere.
 

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
3,500
48
48
California
Roe v Wade is safe. The right to chose is safe. The majority of Americans agree to Women's Choice. Pro-Choice Advocates like to scare and are fervent but it isn't going anywhere.

Funny... too bad no one told the good people of South Dakota that this issue was already settled or the people of California who had to vote yet again on a measure to restrict abortion a few weeks ago. Pro-lifers are hardly done fighting on this one. Need I remind you that Obama's voting record on abortion was mentionned in his opponents ads multiple times?