Hillary - McCain winners

January 8th, 2008, 11:14 PM

The Winners: Election Results in New Hampshire

Democrats
Clinton
39%

Republicans
McCain
37%

McCain won for his solid stance on war in Irak - no troop withdrawal!

Obama got a close 37%

http://www.cnn.com/http://

January 8th, 2008, 11:20 PM

I'm hoping for Hillary, it's time an American woman showed the people that she can murder by the millions too, imagine what that will do for the advancement of womens rights, an example of the trust and emancipation of women in America, they'll be the envy of the world. Just sort of gives me a lump in my throat.

January 8th, 2008, 11:51 PM

Hi, Beaver;
contrary to you I was hoping for a black man, namely Obama.
I know, you are just so good with your sarcasm that I easily fall prey!

I just read karrie's entry on charity and your response. Of course you hit the nail on the head by pointing out that we (meaning the capitalist white?) give with one hand and kill with the other. It is so very sad that the white culture thinks itself superior and empowered to all kinds of entitlements. In reality we have not yet abandoned slavery, just developed other forms of it.

Shouldn't you be in bed
little cabbage head?
I'm going now...
so,...Chow

January 9th, 2008, 12:11 AM

We should avoid the word white because capitalism crosses the race barrier like nothing else, but I see what you mean. The state of slavery has in fact never been greater or more brutal. There is no crime that has not risen in intensity with capitalism which is only the greatest crime of all, legalized murder and theft. I'm going to tuck myself away for the night very soon.

January 9th, 2008, 09:13 AM

You were just hoping for a "black" man? So no matter what as long as a "black" man gets in? That statement in and of itself is racist.

Only the "white" culture kills? You are obviously unaware of what goes on in our cities. It is a slaughter out there.

Some caucasion people do think they are superior and some African-Americans think that they are superior. As do Asians and Latinos. So you've basically slandered one race over the other which is racist.

Entitlements? You mean like Affirmative Action? Those entitlements? Oh wait... Affirmative Action is only available to Non- Caucasion and women.

January 9th, 2008, 09:43 AM

Eaglesmack

See there you go personalizing it all again. There is no person responsible for Affirmative Action or anything else including the Iraq invaision or the carnage of American imperialism across the planet, it's everyone......

In many respects, the primitive human mind is locked-into the "me" persuasion and whether its petroleum or nickel, copper or wood, if there's a chance that a few can control the access and process of wealth and power, whether that demands the demonization of others and may include exterminating anyone who has something the few regard as their "entitlement", that's the way we bipedal mamals have chosen to go.

It doesn't matter if you're white or green or male or female, it doesn't matter if you're Canadian American or any other "nationality", the causal impetus for the carnage that humanity celebrates cyclically and with nearly predictable frequency has to do with the nature of who and what "humankind" is at a very fundamental level.

If we were watching the Spanish Armada or the French or the Russians or the Germans or any of humankinds malignant warring sub-categrories behaving exactly the same way as America is behaving today, we'd be talking about the French or the Spanish or the Portugese or ...whomever....get the picture?

In this age of planet spanning TV and instant communications, the mindset of the primitive is simply reaching its final highest pinacle of conquest and popularity. Obama and Clinton, Huckabee and Romney...Napoleon and Alexander, Pol Pot and Idi Amin...they're all just dust in the wind. It won't make any difference which individual is elevated to some platform of popularity or "office", humankind is content to remain barbaric and primitive and yes even go through the "make-believe" of "a nation of laws"...and moral imperatives and ethical conscience and all the window-dressing of "civilization".... relax we've been here before and we'll be here again....

January 9th, 2008, 11:28 AM

Hillary won oh boy lets nuke them ragheads into the stoneage.

January 9th, 2008, 11:36 AM

NH Primary: Pre-Election Polls Wildly Different Than Results Announced for Clinton/Obama


Global Research, January 9, 2008
Bradblog.com


Other Pre-Election Numbers, For Republicans and Rest of Dems, Nearly Dead on the Money...
if (window.document.getElementById('post-5530')) window.document.getElementById('post-5530').parentNode.className += ' adhesive_post'; [UPDATED several times at end of article, and still developing with new updates...]
I'm not sure why Obama would have conceded so soon, given the virtually inexplicable turn of events in New Hampshire tonight.
What's going on here? Before proceeding, I recommend you read the third section of the post I just ran an hour or so ago, concerning the way the ballots are counted in New Hampshire, largely on Diebold optical-scan voting systems, wholly controlled and programmed by a very very bad company named LHS Associates.
Those Diebold op-scan machines are the exact same ones that were hacked in the HBO documentary, Hacking Democracy. See the previous report, as I recommend, which also includes a video of that hack, and footage of the guy who runs LHS Associates.
That said, the the pre-election pollster's numbers (NOTE: that's not Exit Polls, but Pre-Election Polls!) were dead-on, for the most part, on the Republican side, as well as on the Democratic side. Except in the do-or-die (for Hillary) Clinton v. Obama race. I'm watching MSNBC right now, and they all seem to agree that the results, for the moment, defy explanation.
I concur.
Here's a screenshot of a round up of all of the latest polls from RealClearPolitics.com tonight, and more, to get an idea of the serious concerns here...

They were all not just wrong, but wildly wrong. But only for the Clinton/Obama race.
For a closer look, here's Zogby's predicted numbers, for both the Republicans and Democrats:

And here are the latest numbers from the MSNBC website (the numbers seem to be identical over at CNN and elsewhere):

As you'll note, the numbers in Zogby's latest polls, for all but Clinton and Obama, seem to have been dead-on the money for both the Republicans and Democrats. Edwards, for example, was polled at 17% in Zogby's poll, and he received exactly 17% in the MSNBC numbers, with 63% of precincts reporting. So are we to believe that only those voters who preferred Obama previously, decided to change to Hillary at the last minute? I suppose so.
This election was regarded as do-or-die for Clinton, after most in the media had already written her off after her "thumpin'" in Iowa. But Tim Russert just agreed with Brokaw and Matthews that "this was the most stunning upset in the history of politics."
They are already grasping for reasons that this happened: the crying; she found her voice; the women turned out; oldline Dems showed up, etc. All reminiscent, if you ask me, of "the evangelicals who turned out at the very last minute to vote for Bush in 2004" as the Exit Poll apologists wrote in what would become conventional wisdom at the time. (Where did they get that info? The Exit Polls, they'll tell you. The same ones that they will also tell you were wildly wrong on every other count, apparently.)
Olbermann just called it "a titanic upset victory" for Clinton.
So, with another nod to the third section of the article I posted earlier here tonight, what's going on here?
While I have no evidence at this time --- let me repeat, no evidence at this time --- of chicanery, what we do know is that chicanery, with this particular voting system, is not particularly difficult. Particularly when one private company --- and a less-than-respectable one at that, as I detailed in the previous post --- runs the entire process.
I should also note that some 40% of New Hampshire's precincts are hand-counted, which equals about 25% of the votes. All the rest are counted on hackable Diebold op-scan systems, with completely hackable memory cards, all programmed and managed by LHS Associates. As Bev Harris of BlackBoxVoting.org who seems to share my concern, says, LHS is the "chain of custody" in New Hampshire elections.
Other folks that I've spoken to, who follow this sort of thing, share my concern at this hour. Harris noted that it will be interesting to compare numbers of the hand-counted precincts with those counted on the hackable Diebold op-scan systems.
If I was Barack Obama, I'd certainly not have conceded this election this quickly. I'm not quite sure what he was thinking. And as far as offering an indication of whether he understands how these systems work, and the necessity of making sure that votes are counted, and counted accurately, it does not offer a great deal of confidence at this hour.
I'm trying to get in touch with his campaign, to let them know of these concerns. I hope you'll feel free to let them know as well, if any of you happen to be in touch with them, or a part of the campaign. I will, of course, be happy to discuss these concerns with them if they wish to call.
As mentioned, the numbers referred to above are not Exit Polls. They are Pre-Election Polls which are far less reliable than Exit Polls. So, if anybody knows where any decent Exit Polling data is, we'd appreciate it if you linked it in comments below...
UPDATE 9:18pm PT: This AP report includes information, said to be based on data from the Exit Polls. It indicates that the independents in NH, who may vote in either the R or D primary, voted mostly D, and were breaking for Obama. AP claims, however, that the same data show that Clinton's strength with women "offset that"...
Early exit poll data indicated six in 10 independents opted for the Democratic contest and Obama led among them, but Clinton's advantage among women offset that.
...
The results are from exit polls Tuesday in 50 precincts around New Hampshire for The Associated Press and television networks by Edison Media Research and Mitofsky International. The Democratic primary survey interviewed 1,800 voters, the Republican primary poll 1,301. The sampling error margin was plus or minus 4 percentage points for each exit poll.
Note: the Exit Pollsters used here were Mitofsky/Edison, the same ones who ran the infamous Exits in 2004 showing that, in state after state, Kerry should have won. They also later said their own polling was completely wrong (which is disputed strongly by statistics experts such as U. of Pennsylvania Prof. Steven F. Freeman Ph.D.) So, it's lovely that AP and the TV nets hired them again...
UPDATE 9:40pm PT: While the talking heads are trying to figure out what happened here on MSNBC, Eugene Robinson of the Washington Post, while paging through a stack of papers said to be Exit Poll data, just said: "Of those who made up their mind in the last three days, there was a slight favoring for Obama. If there was a huge difference in a move to Hillary, in the last three days, it doesn't seem to be reflected in the Exit Polling."
UPDATE 9:48pm PT: Olbermann repeated what Russert had said earlier, that Obama's internal polls showed him winning by 14%, Clinton's internal polls had Obama winning by 11%.
The effect of Obama being an African-American, the so-called "Bradley Effect", is now being discussed as the newest "reason" to explain the numbers. Though it's noted that it didn't effect Harold Ford in TN in '06, or even Obama in Iowa just five days ago.
(ADDED: Josh Holland from Alternet points out via email, correctly, concerning my point about the "Bradley Effect" not coming into play in Iowa: "The 'Bradley effect' would not work in an open caucus, where everyone can see whom everyone else is supporting. The theory requires the privacy of a voting booth." He's correct. Thanks for pointing that out! --- BF)
UPDATE 11:06pm PT: As we know, the presumption is always that the polls were wrong. Never the results. Despite how much less transparent the system used to count votes is than the system used to collect polling data. With that in mind, Matthew Yglesias at The Atlantic, makes the following point, in a post headlined "How Wrong Were the Polls?", suggesting that the only numbers that changed here were Clinton's. She surged. Everyone else, even Obama who just had an historic victory in Iowa five days ago, did not...
Commenter Brian makes an observation "No one is talking about how the polls actually nailed Obama's number. Obama didn't lose this election. He stayed steady and Hillary surged ahead." That seems to be true. Here's a chart comparing the actual results to the most recent Pollster.com current standard estimate polling average.
Just as Brian says, the difference between the Obama poll level and the Obama vote total level seems to just be your basic statistical variance. The pollsters underestimated Clinton's level of support. People who were undecided as of the last round of polling seem to have gone overwhelmingly in her direction.

So where did her votes come from, if Exit Polling data showed, as mentioned by MSNBC above, that last minute deciders broke evenly, and even a bit more for Obama??
UPDATE 1/9/08, 12:49am PT: Bev Harris offers this very useful information in comments below. Worth elevating the key points up here to the original post:
New Hampshire, for the Democrats, was the exact opposite of Iowa. They used one of the worst voting systems in America and then handed programming of every memory card in New Hampshire over to a private outfit run by John Silvestro.
First order of business needs to be examining the published precinct results and comparing the hand count locations to the optical scam locations.
The results web site does not make this easy. You have to hover your mouse over each one of about 250 municipalities and then take a screen grab and then type it into a spreadsheet.
So far, no one I know has completed that task.
Here is the site with the municipality results:
http://www.politico.com/...imaries/nhmap-popup.html
Here is a comma delimited data file I created with the municipalities and whether they are hand counted or opscam:
http://www.bbvdocs.org/N...-08-votingsystems-NH.txt
I took the information from the NH Sec State site. A few of the locations do not have the voting system specified; if they have a low population, they are probably hand count.
Whoever gets the handcount vs opscam spreadsheet done gets two points. The tools are in the two links above.

Additionally, BeeSting then makes our night, with a pointer to this Ron Paul website, which lists all of the precinct results, and how each one of them was counted (by hand, or by Diebold/LHS Associaties/John Silverstro).
Thank you BeeSting and Bev both! Looks like we'll have lots to learn in the morning...
UPDATE 1/9/08 1:40am PT: Last update for the night. I hope. A quick note on all of this.
Over at Daily Kos, diarist "AHiddenSaint" has written a post quoting, and linking over to this one, by way of sharing his/her concerns about the NH results.
The result: an embarrassing thread of comments, smashing up AHiddenSaint for posting something that the dKos commenters feel is little more than "conspiracy theory". Foolishly (for them), they have taken a sentence from the original post, in which I noted that I "have no evidence at this time --- of chicanery," to wonder why I would therefore write such a post at all. Their claim: that I am some how charging that Clinton stole the election.
I have made no such claim. In fact, if there was skullduggery here, there are plenty of reasons to believe it could have been committed by any number of interested parties, who have nothing to do with the Clinton campaign.
Daily Kos, of course, is a Clinton-centric website, which, more disturbingly, purged diaries and diarists after the 2004 Ohio election, if they were judged to be questioning what went on there. I spoke to Markos (the site's founder) about that, when we were at a conference together in Vegas last Summer. He stills stands by his decision to purge those folks. That, despite so much that has come out since '04 to show that what happened was a travesty of democracy. As I told him then, he owes his readers an apology. He did add, however, that he has someone ("Georgia10") who now cover issues of Election Integrity on their front page.
The result of his purge, is the mindset of the commenters now seen over there. It seems to me they are are begging for a world of hurt, someday, when their candidate doesn't win, under questionable circumstances. They will, of course, have cornered themselves such that they won't be able to ask questions themselvses. In the bargain, they are now fostering a culture of fear. Fear of asking questions. Fear of insisting that our democracy be transparent, of the people, by the people and for the people. If it were only themselves they were hurting by fostering that culture, I wouldn't give a damn. But rest assured, their comments, actions and attitudes will be leveraged, as we move forward, to hurt all of us.
For the record, I am neither a Clinton supporter nor an Obama supporter (nor a supporter of anyone else in the race at this time, in any party.) I am a supporter of the VOTERS. Period. It's they --- us --- who could really use some support right about now. I intend to do exactly that. All damned year. No matter how many "tin foil hats" the shortsighted, self-destructive Kossack types, who are behaving like the worst of the Republicans, try to throw at me.
That's a promise. 'Night.

January 9th, 2008, 02:58 PM

Beaver, who colonized Africa, India, US-America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand? Weren't they Whites?
And aren't the Whites seizing Irak, Kuweit, Afghanistan and are in the process of taking Pakistan and Iran? Where do you see a Black person or nation grabbing, occupying or controlling a White country? I don't!
I'm not racist, because I'm a white person myself. But I see what my race is doing and I don't endorse it, I am disappointed and feel sorry for their victims.

And now, dear Beaver, when I read your post about the possible election fraud, I am deeply disturbed! Again, if true, it would be a another White crime against a Black!!

My honest thanks and admiration to you, Beaver. You are an incredibly intelligent, yet so humble person. I apologize for the silly antics I've been playing with you. No more cabbage head! Sorry!!

January 9th, 2008, 04:31 PM

Eagle, you are a nit picker! Wonna FIGHT??? I'm ready...

http://www.loon.org/images-compressed/loon2.JPG

January 9th, 2008, 04:59 PM

I am not a cabbage, I am a proud cauliflower. I couldn't find a cabbage. The point I'm trying to make about avoiding the colours is that while it's entirely true if you go down that road it's rascist and in the end someone will make you pay, I'm am a white blue eyed devil, in an argument or discussion about colonialism I stick to the facts, fact is being white dosn't make us pricks being greedy and violent does and every race can be guilty and has been guilty of that, greed and misuse of power are the key, to insist on white having special powers in those areas is insulting to our victims it rob them of thier humanity which given the oportunity they are fully human enough to prove.

January 9th, 2008, 06:17 PM

Yes, Beaver, you are a fine white cauliflower, impeccably well formed and groomed! I'll keep my hands off you and instead keep eating dem Brussel sprouts, which are my favorites.

As to Blacks and Whites... I'll let you win the argument. By chance you could be right that, given power to the Blacks etc., they would become just like a lot of us.

I was on the web, wanted to look up the LHS Associates; I found this interesting, to say the least, article:
http://www.democracyfornewhampshire.com/node/view/5309

pick a title from the left side of this website...
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/donate.html

read just first page of this pdf-file
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-3.pdf

I, too, smell a rat! And I don't think it is the Russians.

January 9th, 2008, 07:32 PM

Thanks DL I'll check out the links when and if the speed on my puter picks up later, it's raining and blowing here right now and that's when the line gets bad down to 21 kbp

January 9th, 2008, 08:02 PM

Good for Mrs. Clinton.

January 9th, 2008, 08:06 PM

Actually, don't bother ... you already covered all that in your various links, if only I had cross-checked.

We, too had a bad storm with rain and blackouts. My computer didn't work for several hours.
21 kbp what? seconds, hours? I used to be on dial-up, too, but now I'm in the fast lane and very happy with it.
Take it easy...

January 9th, 2008, 08:12 PM

Hey I checked out two of three, anyway we can see the sneaky connection, I don't think there's any question about tampering there doin it. I bet the democratic win in the fall will be Clinton for pres and Obama for vice , just wait and see, knoe why I think that , it's because it's as close to a holloywood finish as you can get.

January 10th, 2008, 01:09 AM

I'm watching this whole circus taking place with pesimessim. First, of the five initial states to caucus, none have individually elected a US President by themselves. Second, the entire count of Electoral votes from all of them combined do not equal two of the big population states and Third, the Advertising moguls must be laughing themselves all the way to trhe bank with the proceeds their firms have earned. And we aren't even 25% there yet. The numbers of candidates is also of interest. If I count correctly, there is enough on both sides to form a baseball team. Why not have a game and get it over with? Winner take all too.

January 10th, 2008, 07:11 AM

You have to be patient and wait until the middle of Feb. to see who the true front runners are and i'm betting that Hillary and John won't be them.