Follow-Up on US-Canada Merger Discussion


NorthAmerican
#1
Hi All,

This is my first new thread posting, just signed up today. Anyway, I'm and American and read an article by Diane Francis in the American Interest this morning. Anyway, I read the article and then did some follow-up reading, which is how I found the a thread on this site regarding her "merger" concept. Based on what I saw from your comment, it is not a popular idea. Nonetheless, I thought I'd share with you the follow-up so you can see what she's written on the topic since then.

Here's her piece in the American Interest. BTW, if you want to follow American politics/foreign relations/energy/defense policy, I would highly recommend the American Interest's blog. Multiple daily posts and a toned down, academic and honest discussions of issues:

Canada to the Rescue! - The American Interest (external - login to view)

Also, if you want to see where the discussion thread left off:

forums.canadiancontent.net/ho...erge-into.html (external - login to view)

 
Goober
Free Thinker
+1
#2
I for one would be willing to accept the Northern States, most of the eastern seaboard, western areas but only part of California. To far south, they get crazy like ya know.

Of course they would be enter as Territories first, then we go from there.
Does that sound reasonable?
 
B00Mer
Republican
#3
NOTE: Wasn't me who started this thread SLM!!!
 
Goober
Free Thinker
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by B00MerView Post

NOTE: Wasn't me who started this thread SLM!!!

Now have you made up your mind as to citizenship. Ya know the new bank laws are coming into effect where you are required to file a US Tax return?
Well you always were regardless of where you lived outside of the US.
 
B00Mer
Republican
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

Now have you made up your mind as to citizenship. Ya know the new bank laws are coming into effect where you are required to file a US Tax return?
Well you always were regardless of where you lived outside of the US.

That is not new Goober..

Canada taxes you on your income earned within Canada if you are a Canadian Resident, if you are living outside Canada file a T-4058 for non-Resident.

The US taxes you on your worldly income, no matter where you live..

I always do 2 income taxes filing each year.
 
Goober
Free Thinker
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by B00MerView Post

That is not new Goober..

Canada taxes you on your income earned within Canada if you are a Canadian Resident, if you are living outside Canada file a T-4058 for non-Resident.

The US taxes you on your worldly income, no matter where you live..

I always do 2 income taxes filing each year.

Many US citizens in Canada did not. Now a number are renouncing citizenship.
 
B00Mer
Republican
+1
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

Many US citizens in Canada did not. Now a number are renouncing citizenship.

Have they spent a full winter in Alberta yet??
 
Goober
Free Thinker
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by B00MerView Post

Have they spent a full winter in Alberta yet??

Born in the US as kids of US/Canadian parents, lived in Canada from then on.Never filed taxes returns, never visited, never had a passport from the US.
 
B00Mer
Republican
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

Born in the US as kids of US/Canadian parents, lived in Canada from then on.Never filed taxes returns, never visited, never had a passport from the US.

americansabroad.org/issues/ci...irements-faqs/ (external - login to view)

.............................

Ted Cruz renounces Canadian citizenship | Fox News (external - login to view)

He was a senator, he gets health care for life now in the USA.

 
Goober
Free Thinker
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by B00MerView Post

...and chances are you are not a US Citizen a anymore.. you had to file at 18.

Citizenship Requirements FAQs :: American Citizens Abroad (ACA) (external - login to view)

.............................

Ted Cruz renounces Canadian citizenship | Fox News (external - login to view)

He was a senator, he gets health care for life now in the USA.

Nope, they are still citizens, never filed, reason they are nervous.
 
Praxius
Free Thinker
#11
It won't happen.

Americans are too ingrained to their Constitution and Canadians are too ingrained to their Charter.

Americans are ingrained with their right to bear arms while Canadians are more relaxed on recreational drug use.

Americans fear anything towards going back to any sort of Monarchy / British reference towards Government and would more rather join France.

The person who wrote this "Canada to the Rescue" the OP linked is obviously American and has an American Attitude towards the merger concept.

"This used to be a very tough argument to make, because most Americans were unwontedly proud of their political system."
^ And Canadians aren't?

"We should not, of course, underestimate the difficulties and complications. Would Canada’s provinces become states, with two Senators each and proportional inclusion in the House? How would the different health care systems be managed in a union? What about significant alternative legal approaches to various functional issues, not to speak of the U.S. Constitution itself? Obviously, a union would need to be sequenced into being over time, and a group of Wise Men (and Women) would need to be in operation for several years."
^ Why would Canadian Provinces become States? Why don't American States become Provinces? If the US system is so screwed up as this writer states, then why does the writer automatically assume Canada and its provinces would assimilate into the screwed up US system??

^ Why would Canadians adopt the US Constitution and not the other way around?

^ Why should Canadians break away from the Monarchy and the Commonwealth just to please Americans?

^ Or how do you properly manage a completely new system that is some Frankenstein combination of both types of government to make both sides happy?? (Is that even possible?)

Indeed, what about the laws and punishments in each legal system?

Canadians use the same English and Spelling as the UK, Australia and other nations while the US uses their own spelling/English.... who adopts what?

What about the distribution of each country's natural resources, lands and even jobs and careers?

How are Canadians to believe that they won't become second class citizens in what once was their own country and land?

What are the actual benefits for Canada in a merger?

Cheaper Books at the Bookstore??

Besides somewhat similar accents, driving on the same side of the road and WalMart, Canadians have more in common with Australians than they do with Americans, which I know first hand after spending a few years living here in Australia.

How about the US first merges with Mexico and see how that works out before talk of merging with Canada?

The reality is that it's never going to happen.... at least not for another few hundred years.

Americans will in no way give up their way of life, their Constitution and their "Freedom" and Canadians are more proud of their way of life than most Americans seem to realize.

There are simply more benefits and less headaches in keeping both countries separate while helping each other out from time to time, than trying to sort out a nightmare of trying to merge both countries together and avoiding both societies going after each other's throats for having their way of life taken away from them.

To think merging both nations together is a good idea is beyond short sighted.
 
petros
+1
#12
Quote:

Why should Canadians break away from the Monarchy and the Commonwealth just to please Americans

They already have Queen Latifah.
 
SLM
No Party Affiliation
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by NorthAmericanView Post

Hi All,

This is my first new thread posting, just signed up today. Anyway, I'm and American and read an article by Diane Francis in the American Interest this morning. Anyway, I read the article and then did some follow-up reading, which is how I found the a thread on this site regarding her "merger" concept. Based on what I saw from your comment, it is not a popular idea. Nonetheless, I thought I'd share with you the follow-up so you can see what she's written on the topic since then.

Here's her piece in the American Interest. BTW, if you want to follow American politics/foreign relations/energy/defense policy, I would highly recommend the American Interest's blog. Multiple daily posts and a toned down, academic and honest discussions of issues:

Canada to the Rescue! - The American Interest (external - login to view)

Also, if you want to see where the discussion thread left off:

forums.canadiancontent.net/ho...erge-into.html (external - login to view)

Yeah, ain't gonna happen.

Quote: Originally Posted by B00MerView Post

NOTE: Wasn't me who started this thread SLM!!!

Okie dokie then.


Still ain't gonna happen.
 
gopher
No Party Affiliation
+2
#14  Top Rated Post
Never gonna happen because as Blackie says, Canada is owned by the Queen and she would never relinquish her colonies. But if it ever happened that would be OK with me as it would mean a large increase in the Democratic party and a brand of politics which would stifle the Republicans imperial foreign policy.
 
B00Mer
Republican
#15
Canada and the USA are one in the same Canada and the US are practically the same country. Sure, Canada may be more liberal, but the US is on that route too. The US and Canadian militarizes use the same equipment and our economies are linked together. We are also culturally linked, sharing an almost identical culture, excluding Quebec. (Give that back to France)

Canada and USA both has similar culture, language, Food, Costume, European Ethnicity or White race and Christianity.

We are already mutually dependent on one another. We share power grids, have a free trade agreement, speak the same form of English (except the French), have much overlapping with large businesses. I think we see each other as step children of the same family.
 
Praxius
Free Thinker
#16
Oh and what about Quebec? Some in there want to become their own Nation and break away from Canada. Many would use this merger as an excuse to push this agenda even further. Would they also join this merger or decide to become their own nation as Canada falls apart into this new concept?

What about the many different Native Communities in Canada?
The Canadian Crown and Aboriginal peoples
The Canadian Crown and Aboriginal peoples - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (external - login to view)

They have treaties with the Monarch.... not with the US.

If they decide they don't want to be a part of this merger, will they break off and be their own communities, remain their own separate "Canadian Breakoff" in order to retain their Monarch Treaties, or will they be forced into the merger by any means necessary?
 
B00Mer
Republican
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by PraxiusView Post

What about the many different Native Communities in Canada?
The Canadian Crown and Aboriginal peoples
The Canadian Crown and Aboriginal peoples - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (external - login to view)

They will just have to take one look at the First Nations in the USA, and open a Casino.
 
Praxius
Free Thinker
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by B00MerView Post

Canada and the USA are one in the same Canada and the US are practically the same country. Sure, Canada may be more liberal, but the US is on that route too. The US and Canadian militarizes use the same equipment

Some of the same equipment, but many weapons and equipment the Canadian Forces use are either exclusive to Canada (Made in Canada) or from other nations.

Canada uses the Leopard 2A6/2A6M tank, not the M1 Abrams
List of modern Canadian Army equipment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (external - login to view)

You can also see in the above link the various equipment the Canadian Forces use.

Quote:

and our economies are linked together.

Moreso by proximity than anything else, but Canada's economy is linked with many other nations as well.

Quote:

We are also culturally linked, sharing an almost identical culture, excluding Quebec. (Give that back to France)

Again, besides accents being somewhat similar in certain areas of both nations, the cultures have more differences than in common and Canada has more in common with Australians than with Americans.

Quote:

Canada and USA both has similar culture, language, Food, Costume, European Ethnicity or White race and Christianity.

Canada has similar language with the UK, Australia, New Zealand, etc.

Food is just as similar with the US as it is with the above mentioned nations.

European Ethnicity or White Race and Christianity isn't a Canadian/US Exclusive trait.

Quote:

We are already mutually dependent on one another. We share power grids, have a free trade agreement, speak the same form of English (except the French), have much overlapping with large businesses. I think we see each other as step children of the same family.

We don't speak the same form of English.

Color / Colour as an example.

We're more like children from the same parents where the US is the sibling who rebelled from mommy and daddy in order to be different.... and then became more different from the rest of its brothers and sisters......

.... Now the US is knocking on the door and saying, "Hey, can I crash here? Nice place, thanks, but I'm gonna start redecorating the place and tell you how to live in your own home now. You're still talking to mom and dad? Pssh.... Why don't you grow up and be more independent like me? You going to eat that pizza in the fridge? I'm taking a beer too."
 
NorthAmerican
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

Yeah, ain't gonna happen.



Okie dokie then.


Still ain't gonna happen.

@SLM, I never meant to offent, I just thought I'd post a piece relevant to a previous discussion from this forum. I know it's extremely unlikely in the foreseeable future, actually if you look at the American responses to the link I posted, they are fairly reflective of the ones you see here - which I suppose could be seen as support for both sides of the debate. I would note that the author of the article makes some arguments that are actually difficult to deny, whatever you view might be - whether that means merger or simple economic engagement is a separate issue.

@Praxius, I won't go through line by line on your list of questions - the author of the piece I listed actually does bring up most of these issues - for example she suggests a parliamentary system for the US and a commonwealth-ship for Quebec. I'm just the messenger, so read the article for yourself, I'm not going to recapture the entire article for you here. She also attended the Woodrow Wilson Center, hosted by the Canada Institute. I'd suggest you watch it yourself if you want to argue against her ideas - the concept of Mexico being a part of any union is also brought up. For the record, she is American by birth and has duel citizenship with Canadian children.

"Merger of the Century: Why Canada and America Should Become One Country," A Conversation with Diane Francis | Wilson Center (external - login to view)

As for my views... I personally don't see it happening anytime in my lifetime (early thirties now). However, my view of Canadian's who I continually find to be great people - is that they are similar to the British - where I've lived off and on for a number of years. That view is that they too often find way to differentiate themselves from Americans, not because those differences are substantial, but because they recognize that on a global scale we are extremely alike, not different. Also, I have to admit that I find it difficult to argue against some of her points. The world is changing and who knows what tomorrow will bring. Russia and China are two big geopolitical risks and the consolidating of states' trade and power seems to be on the rise - so I also wonder what how much of this whole debate will be within our control and how much of it will be pushed upon all of us...
 
darkbeaver
Republican
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by B00MerView Post

Have they spent a full winter in Alberta yet??

Be quite fool we must repopulate the western deserts. Emphsize the wonderful subtropical climate.
 
B00Mer
Republican
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by PraxiusView Post

We don't speak the same form of English.

Color / Colour as an example.

yes we "speak" the same language.. just Canadian's spell it wrong.
 
darkbeaver
Republican
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by PraxiusView Post

Some of the same equipment, but many weapons and equipment the Canadian Forces use are either exclusive to Canada (Made in Canada) or from other nations.

Canada uses the Leopard 2A6/2A6M tank, not the M1 Abrams
List of modern Canadian Army equipment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (external - login to view)

You can also see in the above link the various equipment the Canadian Forces use.



Moreso by proximity than anything else, but Canada's economy is linked with many other nations as well.



Again, besides accents being somewhat similar in certain areas of both nations, the cultures have more differences than in common and Canada has more in common with Australians than with Americans.



Canada has similar language with the UK, Australia, New Zealand, etc.

Food is just as similar with the US as it is with the above mentioned nations.

European Ethnicity or White Race and Christianity isn't a Canadian/US Exclusive trait.



We don't speak the same form of English.

Color / Colour as an example.

We're more like children from the same parents where the US is the sibling who rebelled from mommy and daddy in order to be different.... and then became more different from the rest of its brothers and sisters......

.... Now the US is knocking on the door and saying, "Hey, can I crash here? Nice place, thanks, but I'm gonna start redecorating the place and tell you how to live in your own home now. You're still talking to mom and dad? Pssh.... Why don't you grow up and be more independent like me? You going to eat that pizza in the fridge? I'm taking a beer too."

Right, we should fear, hard, American democrazy. We are not them, them seek extinction, overmuchly/

got any beer in yer cooler mate?
 
SLM
No Party Affiliation
+1
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by NorthAmericanView Post

@SLM, I never meant to offent, I just thought I'd post a piece relevant to a previous discussion from this forum. I know it's extremely unlikely in the foreseeable future, actually if you look at the American responses to the link I posted, they are fairly reflective of the ones you see here - which I suppose could be seen as support for both sides of the debate. I would note that the author of the article makes some arguments that are actually difficult to deny, whatever you view might be - whether that means merger or simple economic engagement is a separate issue.

It isn't a matter of offense. We (US and Canada) can't even agree on Softwood Lumber (for instance), I fail to see how we'll ever agree on a full merger.
 
NorthAmerican
+1
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

It isn't a matter of offense. We (US and Canada) can't even agree on Softwood Lumber (for instance), I fail to see how we'll ever agree on a full merger.

haha, fair enough. But then if you're viewing the discussion Boomer and Praxius are having above, we can't agree on how to spell words yet we're communicating fine. In fact across the US, we have many dialects and views, yet it seems to work if sometimes with difficulty. I'm not disagreeing with you completely, it would be extremely difficult, but I would refer back to the author who I'm simply trying to point out. If you watched the video of the link I posted, she sees two scenarios where it might actually occur, 1) over time where it is sufficiently debated and recognized as already happening and needing to occur further, or 2) if there were a sudden crisis (presumably a geopolitical one) where it became apparent that union were better than a continuation of simple economic cooperation. Like I said, I'm just the messenger, I'll let her arguments stand or fall on their own.
 
darkbeaver
Republican
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

It isn't a matter of offense. We (US and Canada) can't even agree on Softwood Lumber (for instance), I fail to see how we'll ever agree on a full merger.

I just can't forget or forgive the Softwood Lumber Holocaust.

Quote: Originally Posted by NorthAmericanView Post

haha, fair enough. But then if you're viewing the discussion Boomer and Praxius are having above, we can't agree on how to spell words yet we're communicating fine. In fact across the US, we have many dialects and views, yet it seems to work if sometimes with difficulty. I'm not disagreeing with you completely, it would be extremely difficult, but I would refer back to the author who I'm simply trying to point out. If you watched the video of the link I posted, she sees two scenarios where it might actually occur, 1) over time where it is sufficiently debated and recognized as already happening and needing to occur further, or 2) if there were a sudden crisis (presumably a geopolitical one) where it became apparent that union were better than a continuation of simple economic cooperation. Like I said, I'm just the messenger, I'll let her arguments stand or fall on their own.

You are ten times bigger than we are, your proposed union would be the end of us, the television has weakened us substainially but we have a secret weapon we will employ this winter, we will snow on you until you are crushed by snow removal expences.

we will give you the whole country for Arizona if you sureneder now.
 
SLM
No Party Affiliation
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaverView Post

I just can't forget or forgive the Softwood Lumber Holocaust.


You are ten times bigger than we are, your proposed union would be the end of us, the television has weakened us substainially but we have a secret weapon we will employ this winter, we will snow on you until you are crushed by snow removal expences.

we will give you the whole country for Arizona if you sureneder now.

Ah, a dry heat. Good call.
 
darkbeaver
Republican
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

Ah, a dry heat. Good call.

Sheeeeesh, we will show them the place in the two week summer period,
 
B00Mer
Republican
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

Ah, a dry heat. Good call.

Enjoy..

 
NorthAmerican
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaverView Post

I just can't forget or forgive the Softwood Lumber Holocaust.


You are ten times bigger than we are, your proposed union would be the end of us, the television has weakened us substainially but we have a secret weapon we will employ this winter, we will snow on you until you are crushed by snow removal expences.

we will give you the whole country for Arizona if you sureneder now.

actually if you read what she had to say, then no it would not be the end of Canada having a voice in governance. Actually that's the whole point of what she is suggesting. She's saying control events now to create a parliamentary style union so that Canada would be alright with union. Within this style of governance, Canada would have a large sway as many northern US states hold extremely similar political positions creating potential party/coalition situation. The alternative that she is suggesting is that there will be a crisis at some point at which Canada will feel compelled to join in union but with a much weaker position - and I'd like to believe that my countrymen would not take advantage, but human nature as it is...

Oh and BTW, if you were part of a free union, you'd be free to all move to AZ without any problems
 
#juan
No Party Affiliation
+2
#30
What again was the benifit to Canada in this merger? All the benifits go the other way. Wouldn't touch it with a very long pole. Canada brings a mountain of natural resources and the U.S. brings what? Nothing that I can think of.
 
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