Suffering

[karrie]

The first Sunday after Easter Sunday, mass was about Jesus' disciple Thomas, about his doubting, about his need to place his hands in Jesus' wounds. It sparked a homily from the priest about the purpose, the place, of suffering, in humanity, in which the message was simple....

... like Jesus' wounds, suffering is a mark which others may use to enter our lives.

It sparked some personal reflection on how wrong that seems... to focus on the sadness rather than the joys, in order to connect to people. What does that say about us? Does that make us intrinsically wonderful, or fundamentally flawed? What is it about us that we have such a dark streak through us that we want to poke and prod and feel out the wounds of others?

Well, this weekend I suffered a loss. I know, to some it may not seem worth the tears, worth the pain, but, we lost the dog we got before we first married (12 years ago). And I can't help but think on that homily as I've mentioned our loss here and there. It has sparked so many e-mails, phone calls, and just general 'reconnecting', that I've been wonderfully surprised. And while I somewhat resented the implication of the homily that Sunday, it is ringing true in the most perfect ways right now.

 

[gerryh]

Karrie, I'm afraid I don't agree with your parish Priests interpretation of John 20:25=27.

I consider it to be more pointing out the need for some to have physical proof to believe rather than just faith. Even though the truth does not change whether it is believed through faith alone or through physical proof.

While, yes, for some, reconnecting through someones pain or suffering is the only time they think about the other person, I would not say it is the norm.

 

[karrie]

Karrie, I'm afraid I don't agree with your parish Priests interpretation of John 20:25=27.

To be fair gerry, I wouldn't say it was interpretation, so much as a side tangent, if that makes sense.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Ah, Doubting Thomas, the patron saint of skeptics, if skeptics would deign to have a patron saint... ;-)

Human suffering is where the Christian church and I part company, the church's lessons about it are really what drove me to my apostasy. The story of Job is the prototype, and I spent years trying to make sense of it. I couldn't do it, it doesn't make sense to me, and the message I ultimately drew from Job is that god can do whatever he bloody well wants to us and we just have to take it, that's all the explanation there is. The final scene in Job, where god finally responds to Job's pleas for an explanation of what's happened to him, has god intimidating and terrorizing him into submission and acceptance, and explaining nothing, in fact refusing to explain anything. I can't reconcile that with the idea of a just and loving god. No religion I know anything about has provided a satisfactory explanation of human suffering that amounts to anything more than the whims of some hypothesized deity, and I just don't buy that. What I find is that if I abandon the idea of god entirely, then there are satisfactory naturalistic explanations for human suffering. In metaphorical terms, nature doesn't care about anything except differential reproductive success, that's what drives evolution and that's why we came to exist, everything else is "don't care" as far as nature's concerned. If there is a deity, which I strongly doubt, my considered opinion is that he's completely disengaged from human affairs and is ultimately irrelevant. And again, if there is a deity, he's not anything like what any religion I know anything about claims him to be.

 

[talloola]

I'm sorry for the loss of your dog Karrie, as you know I
too have gone through a similar loss, and I truly understand
the hurt involved, and it is not easy.

Take care, keep him close, visit him and remember the
happiness he brought to your family.

 

[karrie]

Ah, Doubting Thomas, the patron saint of skeptics, if skeptics would deign to have a patron saint... ;-)

Human suffering is where the Christian church and I part company....

Oddly enough, I guess I kind of posted this in the wrong section, because while it had a basis in a homily, the questions I was really posing were about the people around us, not about God.

"What does that say about us? Does that make us intrinsically wonderful, or fundamentally flawed? What is it about us that we have such a dark streak through us that we want to poke and prod and feel out the wounds of others? "

 

[karrie]

I'm sorry for the loss of your dog Karrie, as you know I
too have gone through a similar loss, and I truly understand
the hurt involved, and it is not easy.

Take care, keep him close, visit him and remember the
happiness he brought to your family.

Thanks talloola.

 

[darkbeaver]

Pain and pleasure are inseperable, every shaman knows this, they are the salt and pepper of any ministry.

 

[Cliffy]

Oddly enough, I guess I kind of posted this in the wrong section, because while it had a basis in a homily, the questions I was really posing were about the people around us, not about God.

"What does that say about us? Does that make us intrinsically wonderful, or fundamentally flawed? What is it about us that we have such a dark streak through us that we want to poke and prod and feel out the wounds of others? "

I don't know that we are fundamentally flawed. More like it is the product of our social conditioning. After all, outside of our basic personal character traits, what are we if not what we have been taught to be. Our entire education, from the moment of birth, is social conditioning. If anything it is society itself that is flawed. We are just products of it.
How many people actually sit down and question what traits they have are theirs or were impressed upon them?

 

[talloola]

society are the people, and I am often 'puzzled' at the
way people seem to flock toward the pain of others, in
a curious, nosy, with eye brows raised, and very excited.

Hence, large sales of trashy magazines, showing the intimate
suffering of others, behavior of others, how others dress,
how they behave, etc.,The public just seem to be totally wrapped up in such misery, and I have never understood that side of things.

Just seeing how successful these rags are, show us how
shallow the public is.

And long long ago, the crowds that turned out to watch
a public hanging, and made a circus out of it also makes
my skin crawl, as a person is going to die, who probably
caused another person to die, how enjoyable is that, well,
it seems many had to see that horrid sight.

 

[AnnaG]

The first Sunday after Easter Sunday, mass was about Jesus' disciple Thomas, about his doubting, about his need to place his hands in Jesus' wounds. It sparked a homily from the priest about the purpose, the place, of suffering, in humanity, in which the message was simple....

... like Jesus' wounds, suffering is a mark which others may use to enter our lives.

It sparked some personal reflection on how wrong that seems... to focus on the sadness rather than the joys, in order to connect to people. What does that say about us? Does that make us intrinsically wonderful, or fundamentally flawed? What is it about us that we have such a dark streak through us that we want to poke and prod and feel out the wounds of others?

Well, this weekend I suffered a loss. I know, to some it may not seem worth the tears, worth the pain, but, we lost the dog we got before we first married (12 years ago). And I can't help but think on that homily as I've mentioned our loss here and there. It has sparked so many e-mails, phone calls, and just general 'reconnecting', that I've been wonderfully surprised. And while I somewhat resented the implication of the homily that Sunday, it is ringing true in the most perfect ways right now.

With me, someone's suffering makes me feel like I need to comfort them. If I see someone laughing, I feel a need to find out what's funny and enjoy that with them. It's a social reaction. Not all people are like that; some are indifferent, some feel the need to fix it, some treat others' suffering as a good opportunity for a feeding frenzy, etc.