Electoral Member
Posts: 903 
Location: Red Deer AB
Location: Red Deer AB
February 23rd, 2008, 11:10 AM
The original 10 commandments (10 Laws) were given exclusively to God's chosen people (Israel). The laws of social behavior were also exclusive to Israel, administered by the priests who could only come from the house of Levi, Aaron was their first priest, he was also a brother to Moses.
The last high-priest (from the tribe of Levi AND anointed by God) was John the Baptist. His father was a priest (Levite)and his mother was a daughter of Aaron. Jesus's lineage through Joseph includes David, heir to the throne (Matthew), His lineage through Mary (Elizabeth's cousin, making her also a daughter of Aaron) goes back to Adam. That is why (as a Son of Man, being born by a flesh and blood mother) Jesus has authority, as a priest in this case, that includes not only all of Israel but also everybody else that was ever born. Any instruction He has given (by Himself before the cross or through the words that were written after the cross has the authority as coming from one who can determine how things are. What He taught was not from Himself, those instructions were given to Him by God.
Joh:8:26:
I have many things to say and to judge of you:
but he that sent me is true;
and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
Joh:8:27:
They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
Joh:8:28:
Then said Jesus unto them,
When ye have lifted up the Son of man,
then shall ye know that I am he,
and that I do nothing of myself;
but as my Father hath taught me,
I speak these things.
Joh:8:29:
And he that sent me is with me:
the Father hath not left me alone;
for I do always those things that please him.
The change in priest-hood occurred when John was cast into prison, that is when Jesus began to preach (and heal people, etc). The Gospel of John is the only Gospel that covers things that He did before John was cast into prison, other than have His disciples baptize (in the same manner as John did) Jesus was rather 'laid-back'.
When there is a change in priest-hood (in that He was priest over more than just Israel) there also is a change in Law. The 10 original commandments were not changed other than to be made into two Laws. The 1st one being exactly the same as the 1st Law of the 10. The other 9 were changed in that they were no just 1 Law, Love thy Neighbor. Not love thy neighbor who is the same 'faith'. A neighbor to a Gentile is all other Gentiles, plain and simple.
Heb:7:11: If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Heb:7:12:
For the priesthood being changed,
there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Heb:7:13:
For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe,
of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb:7:14:
For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda;
of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Heb:7:15:
And it is yet far more evident:
for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Heb:7:16:
Who is made,
not after the law of a carnal commandment,
but after the power of an endless life.
With a new priest-hood also comes a new covenant, the one in Hebrews 8 is the covenant that will be 'in effect' only after His second coming, that isn't in place today for either the Gentiles or the Jews. The covenant we are under is this one.
Joh:15:10:
If ye keep my commandments,
ye shall abide in my love;
even as I have kept my Father's commandments,
and abide in his love.
Joh:15:11:
These things have I spoken unto you,
that my joy might remain in you,
and that your joy might be full.
Joh:15:12:
This is my commandment,
That ye love one another,
as I have loved you.
1Pe:4:15:
But let none of you suffer as a murderer,
or as a thief,
or as an evildoer,
or as a busybody in other men's matters.
1Pe:4:16:
Yet if any man suffer as a Christian,
let him not be ashamed;
but let him glorify God on this behalf.
1Pe:4:17:
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God:
and if it first begin at us,
what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe:4:18:
And if the righteous scarcely be saved,
where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1Pe:4:19:
Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing,
as unto a faithful Creator.
De:4:29:
But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God,
thou shalt find him,
if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
De:4:30:
When thou art in tribulation,
and all these things are come upon thee,
even in the latter days,
if thou turn to the LORD thy God,
and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
De:4:31:
(For the LORD thy God is a merciful God
he will not forsake thee,
neither destroy thee,
nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.
You are right, it is complex in that the information is scattered about in all the text, the only hard part is finding all the relevant words, once you have 'most' (in that you might still be missing a few references) the understanding of what those words mean is quite easy to understand.
Isa:28:9:
Whom shall he teach knowledge?
and whom shall he make to understand doctrine?
them that are weaned from the milk,
and drawn from the breasts.
Isa:28:10:
For precept must be upon precept,
precept upon precept;
line upon line,
line upon line;
here a little,
and there a little:
Another example is who is the rider in the vision that goes with the 1st seal. Most relate it to the last anti-christ, given authority to start the tribulation associated with Satan. They can't come up with any reference from Scripture that explains the bow he carries, they just kind of ignore that little part or point out that it is only a bow that is mentioned but no arrows are mentioned so there is a 'lack of real power'. If you take this Scripture into account does it a) add information b)identify the roder.
Isa:49:2:
And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword;
in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me,
and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
That would certainly change who the rider was from being the anti-christ to it being God and the white horse being the Holy Spirit? That isn't inconsistent with other passages that says the end of times starts when God alone determines it actually starts. (Scripture does give a sequence of events and a time-line that precedes Christ's actual return).
Later
Quoting Dexter Sinister
I hope this answer doesn't bore or confuse you, but the answer to this is one that is found by referencing a little bit from a lot of different places in Scripture. The answer is we are under the teachings of Jesus. The how and why is the long and complicated (finding all the little tid-bits).
I'd have thought that was perfectly obvious. They're part of Scripture, and there are several statements in the New Testament, one of which I cited, indicating that they still apply. There are also statements, as you correctly cited, that can be read as indicating they don't. So which is it?
The original 10 commandments (10 Laws) were given exclusively to God's chosen people (Israel). The laws of social behavior were also exclusive to Israel, administered by the priests who could only come from the house of Levi, Aaron was their first priest, he was also a brother to Moses.
The last high-priest (from the tribe of Levi AND anointed by God) was John the Baptist. His father was a priest (Levite)and his mother was a daughter of Aaron. Jesus's lineage through Joseph includes David, heir to the throne (Matthew), His lineage through Mary (Elizabeth's cousin, making her also a daughter of Aaron) goes back to Adam. That is why (as a Son of Man, being born by a flesh and blood mother) Jesus has authority, as a priest in this case, that includes not only all of Israel but also everybody else that was ever born. Any instruction He has given (by Himself before the cross or through the words that were written after the cross has the authority as coming from one who can determine how things are. What He taught was not from Himself, those instructions were given to Him by God.
Joh:8:26:
I have many things to say and to judge of you:
but he that sent me is true;
and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
Joh:8:27:
They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
Joh:8:28:
Then said Jesus unto them,
When ye have lifted up the Son of man,
then shall ye know that I am he,
and that I do nothing of myself;
but as my Father hath taught me,
I speak these things.
Joh:8:29:
And he that sent me is with me:
the Father hath not left me alone;
for I do always those things that please him.
The change in priest-hood occurred when John was cast into prison, that is when Jesus began to preach (and heal people, etc). The Gospel of John is the only Gospel that covers things that He did before John was cast into prison, other than have His disciples baptize (in the same manner as John did) Jesus was rather 'laid-back'.
When there is a change in priest-hood (in that He was priest over more than just Israel) there also is a change in Law. The 10 original commandments were not changed other than to be made into two Laws. The 1st one being exactly the same as the 1st Law of the 10. The other 9 were changed in that they were no just 1 Law, Love thy Neighbor. Not love thy neighbor who is the same 'faith'. A neighbor to a Gentile is all other Gentiles, plain and simple.
Heb:7:11: If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Heb:7:12:
For the priesthood being changed,
there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Heb:7:13:
For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe,
of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb:7:14:
For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda;
of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Heb:7:15:
And it is yet far more evident:
for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Heb:7:16:
Who is made,
not after the law of a carnal commandment,
but after the power of an endless life.
With a new priest-hood also comes a new covenant, the one in Hebrews 8 is the covenant that will be 'in effect' only after His second coming, that isn't in place today for either the Gentiles or the Jews. The covenant we are under is this one.
Joh:15:10:
If ye keep my commandments,
ye shall abide in my love;
even as I have kept my Father's commandments,
and abide in his love.
Joh:15:11:
These things have I spoken unto you,
that my joy might remain in you,
and that your joy might be full.
Joh:15:12:
This is my commandment,
That ye love one another,
as I have loved you.
Quoting Dexter Sinister
But the old instructions don't apply, your references to Israel entering the promised land (and doing what they were instructed to do) ended when they finally got to their promised land, within those well defined borders. They weren't spreading the Gospel, their intent was to conquer a certain piece of land, which God also took away from them on more than one occasion, the last one still being in effect until Christ's return. If God would exile His people for not doing what He said just what do you think Christ is going to do to those that call Him lord yet do not do the things He has said? It won't be the fiery lake but it will be the closest thing to it that allows for an exit. How many 'Christians' do you think that will include? That will be the first group to be judged.
Same answer, really; the rejection is of the messages and instructions from the "One True God," regardless of when they were delivered, and the old rules still apply. Reject it and die. Or maybe not...
1Pe:4:15:
But let none of you suffer as a murderer,
or as a thief,
or as an evildoer,
or as a busybody in other men's matters.
1Pe:4:16:
Yet if any man suffer as a Christian,
let him not be ashamed;
but let him glorify God on this behalf.
1Pe:4:17:
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God:
and if it first begin at us,
what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe:4:18:
And if the righteous scarcely be saved,
where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1Pe:4:19:
Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing,
as unto a faithful Creator.
Quoting Dexter Sinister
Certainly people do that, God also put in measures that curtail that sort of practice. Any subject that is covered in Scripture is spoken of in more than one place, three or more is more usual than not. The neat thing about that is each separate reference adds just a tad-bit more information on that one topic but they usually also reference another 'similar topic'. For instance a few verses from the OT about prayer also hold a reference to 'how useful' prayer will be in that last few years before His return.
Trouble is, the Bible's a sufficiently large and complex document that you can probably find support in it for any position you'd care to take.
De:4:29:
But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God,
thou shalt find him,
if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
De:4:30:
When thou art in tribulation,
and all these things are come upon thee,
even in the latter days,
if thou turn to the LORD thy God,
and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
De:4:31:
(For the LORD thy God is a merciful God
he will not forsake thee,
neither destroy thee,
nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.
You are right, it is complex in that the information is scattered about in all the text, the only hard part is finding all the relevant words, once you have 'most' (in that you might still be missing a few references) the understanding of what those words mean is quite easy to understand.
Isa:28:9:
Whom shall he teach knowledge?
and whom shall he make to understand doctrine?
them that are weaned from the milk,
and drawn from the breasts.
Isa:28:10:
For precept must be upon precept,
precept upon precept;
line upon line,
line upon line;
here a little,
and there a little:
Quoting Dexter Sinister
When I find something that 'seems' inconsistent it's a reason to do some more reading, assuming that it is my understanding that is in error and not His written word. Sooner or later I can usually find more info on the subject in question. A few quick examples, in Ezekiel 39 it says all Israel will die by the sword by the time the feast for the beasts of the field is 'ready'. Zechariah points to 1/3 of a group not dieing at His return. This is either a conflict of facts or it is simple referencing two different groups, Israel and Gentiles.
It is so inconsistent on so many things, and makes so many readily falsifiable empirical claims, that I find it impossible to consider it as anything but the work of fallible human beings, not a revelation from any deity.
Another example is who is the rider in the vision that goes with the 1st seal. Most relate it to the last anti-christ, given authority to start the tribulation associated with Satan. They can't come up with any reference from Scripture that explains the bow he carries, they just kind of ignore that little part or point out that it is only a bow that is mentioned but no arrows are mentioned so there is a 'lack of real power'. If you take this Scripture into account does it a) add information b)identify the roder.
Isa:49:2:
And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword;
in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me,
and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
That would certainly change who the rider was from being the anti-christ to it being God and the white horse being the Holy Spirit? That isn't inconsistent with other passages that says the end of times starts when God alone determines it actually starts. (Scripture does give a sequence of events and a time-line that precedes Christ's actual return).
Later
Council Member
Posts: 1,926
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
February 23rd, 2008, 11:15 AM
The gift, if you will is that we have the right to choose.
That right came with a price, first on our account, second on God's account.
The latter extinguished the former, thereby, giving us complete freedom from eternal annihilation.
So, choose what you want to believe, for it is a "covered gift" as a love gift from God.
Now, how you choose, how you live does have consequences.
If you don't believe in God at all, but you live a just life, do right to your neighbor, have a passion for good, then rewards from the unbelievable God flow your way.
The believer has more to contend with, or say a more severe penalty to pay in that claims of godliness must be lived.
For it says: "For much is given, much is required".
So, ...."judge not that ye may not be judged".....goes for believer and unbeliever alike.
If God loves you and tell me to love, then I want to love as He loves.
I don't have too............but I want to.
Peace>>>AJ
The gift, if you will is that we have the right to choose.
That right came with a price, first on our account, second on God's account.
The latter extinguished the former, thereby, giving us complete freedom from eternal annihilation.
So, choose what you want to believe, for it is a "covered gift" as a love gift from God.
Now, how you choose, how you live does have consequences.
If you don't believe in God at all, but you live a just life, do right to your neighbor, have a passion for good, then rewards from the unbelievable God flow your way.
The believer has more to contend with, or say a more severe penalty to pay in that claims of godliness must be lived.
For it says: "For much is given, much is required".
So, ...."judge not that ye may not be judged".....goes for believer and unbeliever alike.
If God loves you and tell me to love, then I want to love as He loves.
I don't have too............but I want to.
Peace>>>AJ
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 10,273 
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
February 23rd, 2008, 11:22 AM
Quoting gerryh
Gerry why don't you just go play with your little friends and leave the big people to discuss impotent stuff beyond your fixed parrameters. My itty bitty brain gets a lot of pleasure out of your support for the atheists point of view, in that respect you are exibit "A".
No...that's a problem with man...not religions..... something you just can't seem to wrap your itty bitty brain around.
Executive Member
Posts: 9,534
February 23rd, 2008, 11:24 AM
Quoting darkbeaver
I have said that I'm not a religious man but I will respect those who are. The many stupid wars that have been fought over religion are among the reasons why I'm not religious. I have known lots of very good people who were religious and my parents.were among them. Using a shotgun to insult everyone doesn't help your argument.
I can. Can you say Northern Ireland, The Thirty Years War, the genocide conducted on the Cathars the slaveing of indiginous people over the entire globe for hundreds of years? Can you say fraud theft and murder on an unchallengeable record of delivered misery? The history of religion itself condemns it without exception, it (religion) has no bearing or contribution to morals ethics or standards of common decency whatever. Not to mention the enormous body of evidence that negates the the christian history which the bible totally obscures.
I don't have to give religious dogma 1mm of respect, especially since I know the christian fraud is proven through forensic, historical, archeological and physical evidence to be a con.So what am I to recommend to youth that they adhere to fraud that they surrender common sence and reason to a long dead little understood historical figure who would not have understood the christian story in any period of the last two-thousand years, indeed I'm positive that he would have been tortured and impaled on a stake or burned by his flock at anytime during the five hundred years of the inquisition just for speaking his own supposed words in the street. As a matter of fact the Cathars were recognizably christlike and were exterminated by the Roman faction for that.
I'll just let the paranoid crack pass. sticks and stones can break my bones but words will never hurt me
I don't have to give religious dogma 1mm of respect, especially since I know the christian fraud is proven through forensic, historical, archeological and physical evidence to be a con.So what am I to recommend to youth that they adhere to fraud that they surrender common sence and reason to a long dead little understood historical figure who would not have understood the christian story in any period of the last two-thousand years, indeed I'm positive that he would have been tortured and impaled on a stake or burned by his flock at anytime during the five hundred years of the inquisition just for speaking his own supposed words in the street. As a matter of fact the Cathars were recognizably christlike and were exterminated by the Roman faction for that.
I'll just let the paranoid crack pass. sticks and stones can break my bones but words will never hurt me
Council Member
Posts: 1,926
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
February 23rd, 2008, 11:29 AM
I would like to enlighten you on the verse above so as to give reason to the wordings and as seemed contradictions in the bible.
Israel had a relationship with God such as a first born child over the Gentile world.
But in order for God to save the world, He had to take the birthright away from Israel, or in using words to mean the same thing "all Israel will die by the sword", meaning that Israel no longer holds the first born status but Christ.
There is another term which is described like this to mean the same thing, ....Cut off the head and the tail.....meaning that Jesus cut Israel off, and Israel cut Jesus off.
All for a purpose and that was to make for an all inclusive condition of salvation for all mankind.
God is greater than what is believed, and revelation of that is given to them that seek it with their whole heart.
Peace>>>AJ
Quote:
Good and very informative post.
Ezekiel 39 it says all Israel will die by the sword by the time the feast for the beasts of the field is 'ready'. Zechariah points to 1/3 of a group not dieing at His return. This is either a conflict of facts or it is simple referencing two different groups, Israel and Gentiles.>>>MHz
I would like to enlighten you on the verse above so as to give reason to the wordings and as seemed contradictions in the bible.
Israel had a relationship with God such as a first born child over the Gentile world.
But in order for God to save the world, He had to take the birthright away from Israel, or in using words to mean the same thing "all Israel will die by the sword", meaning that Israel no longer holds the first born status but Christ.
There is another term which is described like this to mean the same thing, ....Cut off the head and the tail.....meaning that Jesus cut Israel off, and Israel cut Jesus off.
All for a purpose and that was to make for an all inclusive condition of salvation for all mankind.
God is greater than what is believed, and revelation of that is given to them that seek it with their whole heart.
Peace>>>AJ
Mass'Debator
Posts: 4,282
Location: Atlantic Canada
Location: Atlantic Canada
February 23rd, 2008, 11:42 AM
There are connections that can be found with a combination of scientific observations on religion, but also some human intuition on human interaction to put it all together. Takes time and a lot of reading, but it's pretty interesting. But also, you seemed to nail most of it below.
I still see studies coming out that are just plain wrong, or contradict other studies. Global Warming / Climate Change is a perfect example of this today. they are correct with their information to a degree and then they devide on a few concepts they a few scientists disagree on. Then before we know it, they'll schism like Christianity (Protestant/Catholic) or like Islam (Sunni / Shi'a) And then science ends up having two opposing groups of nerds in lab coats off on their own religious wars over how the world is going to end.
Eventually everybody will start to see that science is much like the other religions. Much more complex in nature then older religions, but so was Christianity to the Greek Mythologies. (Don't forget that Angels, beings up in the clouds and Halos came from Greek/Roman Mythology.)
Or just it all just flick off like a switch?
If so, then once again.... where did that energy go?
Quoting mrgrumpy
Sure you can. You can probably answer them as well as any other person reading this. Nothing can be proven at this point either way. Some can be by some quick research. Like for example how the Bible was actually only a few testaments (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, etc.) out of many who written testaments. They were chosen over the rest, they say, because they were the most reliable sources of Jesus's stories..... even though they were written many years after his death.
Praxius - you ask really good questions!...and certainly I can't pretend to answer them.....
There are connections that can be found with a combination of scientific observations on religion, but also some human intuition on human interaction to put it all together. Takes time and a lot of reading, but it's pretty interesting. But also, you seemed to nail most of it below.
Quote:
true. But also, isolating studies in those categories, such as chemistry, biology, physics, geology, etc... it still makes a common problem of studying the smaller pictures and not the bigger ones. I don't mean to rush the study of science or anything, but it's slow, and can be wrong on occasion.
but in terms of understanding man's psychological need to believe in supreme beings and explain a mysterious natural world I would refer you to a wonderful book called The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind. I've lent my copy and don't recall the author's name but it was published about 20 years ago and gives great insights into the evolution of the human mind and how it helped explain nature in terms of beings controlling forces that were then mysterios and which we now understand in terms of geology, weather, chemistry, biology and other sciences.
I still see studies coming out that are just plain wrong, or contradict other studies. Global Warming / Climate Change is a perfect example of this today. they are correct with their information to a degree and then they devide on a few concepts they a few scientists disagree on. Then before we know it, they'll schism like Christianity (Protestant/Catholic) or like Islam (Sunni / Shi'a) And then science ends up having two opposing groups of nerds in lab coats off on their own religious wars over how the world is going to end.
Eventually everybody will start to see that science is much like the other religions. Much more complex in nature then older religions, but so was Christianity to the Greek Mythologies. (Don't forget that Angels, beings up in the clouds and Halos came from Greek/Roman Mythology.)
Quote:
But what about energy always being constant? You're alive, you're alive, you're alive.... now you're dead. Where did that all go? Did it all just drift off us like a cloud of body heat in the cold?
Is there life after death? My personal opinion is that there is not; we are biological entities subject to natural laws and while it is attractive to wish for immortality, there really is no evidence whatsoever that our memories, personality or character survive the death of the brain. Christian wishful thinking notwithstanding.
Or just it all just flick off like a switch?
If so, then once again.... where did that energy go?
Council Member
Posts: 1,926
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
February 23rd, 2008, 11:43 AM
I can tell you right now, that mankind is a poor example of who God is, simply because we are handi-capped with the flesh.
But, god gives us individually the strength to rise above the flesh to individually exercises good to wards our neighbor and dignifying the goodness of God.
Love above all else is God. Have we not love as God loves, we have nothing but flesh, and because of that, we have wars.
Peace>>>AJ
Quote:
In other words juan, you are judging God by man's actions?
I have said that I'm not a religious man but I will respect those who are. The many stupid wars that have been fought over religion are among the reasons why I'm not religious. I have known lots of very good people who were religious and my parents.were among them. Using a shotgun to insult everyone doesn't help your argument. >>>juan
I can tell you right now, that mankind is a poor example of who God is, simply because we are handi-capped with the flesh.
But, god gives us individually the strength to rise above the flesh to individually exercises good to wards our neighbor and dignifying the goodness of God.
Love above all else is God. Have we not love as God loves, we have nothing but flesh, and because of that, we have wars.
Peace>>>AJ
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February 23rd, 2008, 11:53 AM
He could have made it a lot simpler and easier to understand. I can only conclude that the Bible is not a message from a deity, it's a message from a bunch of fallible men with a variety of changing agendas that mostly are no longer relevant. They simply wrapped themselves in the authority of a fictitious deity to justify their claims, one of the oldest tricks in the world.
Quoting MHz
No, it didn't, what it did was add a little more confirmation to one of my long-held opinions. Interesting argument, but I can't buy it. It has long seemed pretty much self-evident to me that if god really wanted us to know and understand certain things, he wouldn't have made it necessary to go through such elaborate mental gymnastics and verbal juggling--which most people frankly will not do--to make sense of the book he supposedly gave us that describes and explains it all. If you start from the premise that the Bible must be correct, true, and consistent, as you evidently do, you have to go through an extraordinary dance to maintain that claim, some of it entirely arbitrary as far as I can tell, such as distinguishing between which parts are to be taken literally and which parts are to be read as metaphors and allegories.
I hope this answer doesn't bore or confuse you, ....
He could have made it a lot simpler and easier to understand. I can only conclude that the Bible is not a message from a deity, it's a message from a bunch of fallible men with a variety of changing agendas that mostly are no longer relevant. They simply wrapped themselves in the authority of a fictitious deity to justify their claims, one of the oldest tricks in the world.
Mass'Debator
Posts: 4,282
Location: Atlantic Canada
Location: Atlantic Canada
February 23rd, 2008, 12:33 PM
And since we have nothing but flesh, and we have wars because of that (Which doesn't make all that much sense to me) Then one again, God made us in his image did he not? Isn't that why he "loved" us so much?
Then why would he design us with the same sadistic desire of gennocide and punnishment, if he was perfect in every way. In his own teachings everyone follows, being perfect is to turn the other cheek, to be kind and generous and all that great stuff.
Yet God/Jesus is more then willing to send us to a burning scrap yard for all the failure designs? Those designs and failures in which he put into us?
Which are a part of him if we are an image of him.... then wouldn't that in turn make him not perfect? If he himself is not perfect either, then why should we follow?
Does he even exist if all the above is true?
Quoting look3467
Then it's God's fault for not creating us in his image good enough.
In other words juan, you are judging God by man's actions?
I can tell you right now, that mankind is a poor example of who God is, simply because we are handi-capped with the flesh.
I can tell you right now, that mankind is a poor example of who God is, simply because we are handi-capped with the flesh.
Quote:
But I do that already without the desire to please a God.... but to better myself and others around me. To me, God or Jesus had nothing to do with it. My parents, friends and family did.
But, god gives us individually the strength to rise above the flesh to individually exercises good to wards our neighbor and dignifying the goodness of God.
Quote:
If love is God, then that would explain why I felt none in my times of need when I ask for it from him, or at least guidance..... just empty air and my own thoughts and tears..... If there was no love, then there was no God.
Love above all else is God. Have we not love as God loves, we have nothing but flesh, and because of that, we have wars.
Peace>>>AJ
Peace>>>AJ
And since we have nothing but flesh, and we have wars because of that (Which doesn't make all that much sense to me) Then one again, God made us in his image did he not? Isn't that why he "loved" us so much?
Then why would he design us with the same sadistic desire of gennocide and punnishment, if he was perfect in every way. In his own teachings everyone follows, being perfect is to turn the other cheek, to be kind and generous and all that great stuff.
Yet God/Jesus is more then willing to send us to a burning scrap yard for all the failure designs? Those designs and failures in which he put into us?
Which are a part of him if we are an image of him.... then wouldn't that in turn make him not perfect? If he himself is not perfect either, then why should we follow?
Does he even exist if all the above is true?
Electoral Member
Posts: 903
Location: Red Deer AB
Location: Red Deer AB
February 23rd, 2008, 12:43 PM
Salvation of the Gentiles was determined back when salvation for anybody was set.
Isa:40:15:
Behold,
the nations are as a drop of a bucket,
and are counted as the small dust of the balance:
behold,
he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.
Quoting look3467
Then again it could mean just what it says, Israel will not have any protection from Satan in those final years. That is why the 144,000 are sealed before Satan starts his final 42 months. By the end of that time there will be only those 144,000 drawing breath. While that may seem unkind the whole house does have a resurrection from the grave coming at His return, all past sins are forgiven. (Scripture also says why the whole house of Jacob and Israel take part, not because of themselves being a perfect example, but because they have already been declared to be God's people. Let me know if you want the relevant verses.) This was determined by God back in the book of Jeremiah as punishment for 'the temple leaders' wanting to kill him. The list of who would be involved is in Ch:25. Micah 3 also states the same thing, no protection.
I would like to enlighten you on the verse above so as to give reason to the wordings and as seemed contradictions in the bible.
Israel had a relationship with God such as a first born child over the Gentile world.
But in order for God to save the world, He had to take the birthright away from Israel, or in using words to mean the same thing "all Israel will die by the sword", meaning that Israel no longer holds the first born status but Christ.
Israel had a relationship with God such as a first born child over the Gentile world.
But in order for God to save the world, He had to take the birthright away from Israel, or in using words to mean the same thing "all Israel will die by the sword", meaning that Israel no longer holds the first born status but Christ.
Quoting look3467
Well I can agree that prophecy had to be fulfilled about Jesus going to the grave, that is why some things were kept hidden from the temple leaders, but only until He was resurrected. What came after that sealed their fate all on it's own. (other than what was determined by the 70 weeks in Daniel). Stoning Stephen was when the 'message' was last given to anybody associated with the temple.
There is another term which is described like this to mean the same thing, ....Cut off the head and the tail.....meaning that Jesus cut Israel off, and Israel cut Jesus off.
All for a purpose and that was to make for an all inclusive condition of salvation for all mankind.
God is greater than what is believed, and revelation of that is given to them that seek it with their whole heart.
Peace>>>AJ
All for a purpose and that was to make for an all inclusive condition of salvation for all mankind.
God is greater than what is believed, and revelation of that is given to them that seek it with their whole heart.
Peace>>>AJ
Salvation of the Gentiles was determined back when salvation for anybody was set.
Isa:40:15:
Behold,
the nations are as a drop of a bucket,
and are counted as the small dust of the balance:
behold,
he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.
Electoral Member
Posts: 903
Location: Red Deer AB
Location: Red Deer AB
February 23rd, 2008, 02:00 PM
Lu:24:27: And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
All it does is open the door to looking through all those books that reference something that is about something that Jesus will do that had not already been accomplished when He spoke those words. References to His arrival as King being one such example. Then as I read through those OT texts I still have to try and determine if what is being said is being said by Christ or by God (future or past).
Are these verses God speaking to Christ, telling Him how to resurrect the ones being referenced? Is Christ the one who is "I" and "me"? That would make Christ the one who was speaking to Ezekiel.
Eze:37:1:
The hand of the LORD was upon me,
and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD,
and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
Eze:37:2:
And caused me to pass by them round about:
and,
behold,
there were very many in the open valley;
and,
lo,
they were very dry.
Eze:37:3:
And he said unto me,
Son of man,
can these bones live?
And I answered,
O Lord GOD,
thou knowest.
Eze:37:4:
Again he said unto me,
Prophesy upon these bones,
and say unto them,
O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
Eze:37:5:
Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones;
Behold,
I will cause breath to enter into you,
and ye shall live:
Eze:37:6:
And I will lay sinews upon you,
and will bring up flesh upon you,
and cover you with skin,
and put breath in you,
and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze:37:7:
So I prophesied as I was commanded:
and as I prophesied,
there was a noise,
and behold a shaking,
and the bones came together,
bone to his bone.
Eze:37:8:
And when I beheld,
lo,
the sinews and the flesh came up upon them,
and the skin covered them above:
but there was no breath in them.
Eze:37:9:
Then said he unto me,
Prophesy unto the wind,
prophesy,
son of man,
and say to the wind,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Come from the four winds,
O breath,
and breathe upon these slain,
that they may live.
Eze:37:10:
So I prophesied as he commanded me,
and the breath came into them,
and they lived,
and stood up upon their feet,
an exceeding great army.
And on to the end of that chapter.
Re:14:20:
And the winepress was trodden without the city,
and blood came out of the winepress,
even unto the horse bridles,
by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Da:8:26:
And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true:
wherefore shut thou up the vision;
for it shall be for many days.
Da:8:27:
And I Daniel fainted,
and was sick certain days;
afterward I rose up,
and did the king's business;
and I was astonished at the vision,
but none understood it.
This probably was not unique to Daniel, especially for the authors who were recording prophecies.
The only thing I was sure of after reading the NT (of my own free will and it not being a requirement from somebody else) was that 'eat' meant reading Scripture and 'set in order' alluded to what would happen when Christ returned. Nor did I stop at something I didn't understand and try and figure it out before moving onto the next page, I just kept reading and on the next page (or so) there was something I could understand.
1Co:11:34:
And if any man hunger,
let him eat at home;
that ye come not together unto condemnation.
And the rest will I set in order when I come.
As time went on I just developed a taste for getting into the nitty-gritty parts. Not saying I found them all but I did discover that in trying to find answers to some question or another (not always my own questions) I ended up reading lots of verses that had absolutely nothing to do with whatever info I was looking for. More than once I was at the point of "What's the use.", until it dawned on me while the verses I was reading still had information that was new to me on some other subject the Bible covers, that took away a lot of frustration. In hindsight if I now run across something that is new I follow that because I can always come back to the original question but finding that same verse that was about another subject is sometimes near to impossible to find again.
I hope this is some insight on why/how I still find Scripture more than just interesting even though I have gone through much scratching my head and saying "What are you (God) talking about?" on more than one occasion.
Buying books that 'explain the Bible' is a real cop-out. While reading for yourself might seem slower, in the end it is faster to understanding because you have to do a lot less back-tracking.
Quoting Dexter Sinister
It probably would be clear if it had been written in a question/answer format, but it wasn't. Luckily it is written in a form that is understandable if all the verses are sorted into subject categories. That means (unfortunately) any question is not going to be answered fully in one set of verses. Searching can indeed be tiring but it is still about the only way to put the pieces of the 'puzzle' together. Wouldn't it have been 'nice of God' to go into much detail about this verse,
No, it didn't, what it did was add a little more confirmation to one of my long-held opinions. Interesting argument, but I can't buy it. It has long seemed pretty much self-evident to me that if god really wanted us to know and understand certain things, he wouldn't have made it necessary to go through such elaborate mental gymnastics and verbal juggling--which most people frankly will not do--to make sense of the book he supposedly gave us that describes and explains it all.
Lu:24:27: And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
All it does is open the door to looking through all those books that reference something that is about something that Jesus will do that had not already been accomplished when He spoke those words. References to His arrival as King being one such example. Then as I read through those OT texts I still have to try and determine if what is being said is being said by Christ or by God (future or past).
Are these verses God speaking to Christ, telling Him how to resurrect the ones being referenced? Is Christ the one who is "I" and "me"? That would make Christ the one who was speaking to Ezekiel.
Eze:37:1:
The hand of the LORD was upon me,
and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD,
and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
Eze:37:2:
And caused me to pass by them round about:
and,
behold,
there were very many in the open valley;
and,
lo,
they were very dry.
Eze:37:3:
And he said unto me,
Son of man,
can these bones live?
And I answered,
O Lord GOD,
thou knowest.
Eze:37:4:
Again he said unto me,
Prophesy upon these bones,
and say unto them,
O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
Eze:37:5:
Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones;
Behold,
I will cause breath to enter into you,
and ye shall live:
Eze:37:6:
And I will lay sinews upon you,
and will bring up flesh upon you,
and cover you with skin,
and put breath in you,
and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze:37:7:
So I prophesied as I was commanded:
and as I prophesied,
there was a noise,
and behold a shaking,
and the bones came together,
bone to his bone.
Eze:37:8:
And when I beheld,
lo,
the sinews and the flesh came up upon them,
and the skin covered them above:
but there was no breath in them.
Eze:37:9:
Then said he unto me,
Prophesy unto the wind,
prophesy,
son of man,
and say to the wind,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Come from the four winds,
O breath,
and breathe upon these slain,
that they may live.
Eze:37:10:
So I prophesied as he commanded me,
and the breath came into them,
and they lived,
and stood up upon their feet,
an exceeding great army.
And on to the end of that chapter.
Quoting Dexter Sinister
Unless 'vision' is explicitly mentioned (and a vision usually is followed by an explanation of what the vision means) then literal is what I tend to go with. Are the horsemen if the 6th trump literal just as described. I tend to stay with the literal description only because they would seem to be what 4 fallen angels can be manifested as. They don't reference a backward man describing our current machines of war. If it was, does this mean that when they are destroyed it is diesel-fuel and not their blood that makes the very long river?
If you start from the premise that the Bible must be correct, true, and consistent, as you evidently do, you have to go through an extraordinary dance to maintain that claim, some of it entirely arbitrary as far as I can tell, such as distinguishing between which parts are to be taken literally and which parts are to be read as metaphors and allegories.
Re:14:20:
And the winepress was trodden without the city,
and blood came out of the winepress,
even unto the horse bridles,
by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Quoting Dexter Sinister
Wouldn't that also mean men would reject it because it was too simple, something any man could pen. It would seem that God had a complete picture and then chopped it up into many little pieces and had many different men write it down over a very long period of time so that each 'author' only had a portion of the complete picture. Daniel is one example of an 'author' who was writing things that he had no idea what was meant but he still wrote it down.
He could have made it a lot simpler and easier to understand. I can only conclude that the Bible is not a message from a deity, it's a message from a bunch of fallible men with a variety of changing agendas that mostly are no longer relevant. They simply wrapped themselves in the authority of a fictitious deity to justify their claims, one of the oldest tricks in the world.
Da:8:26:
And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true:
wherefore shut thou up the vision;
for it shall be for many days.
Da:8:27:
And I Daniel fainted,
and was sick certain days;
afterward I rose up,
and did the king's business;
and I was astonished at the vision,
but none understood it.
This probably was not unique to Daniel, especially for the authors who were recording prophecies.
The only thing I was sure of after reading the NT (of my own free will and it not being a requirement from somebody else) was that 'eat' meant reading Scripture and 'set in order' alluded to what would happen when Christ returned. Nor did I stop at something I didn't understand and try and figure it out before moving onto the next page, I just kept reading and on the next page (or so) there was something I could understand.
1Co:11:34:
And if any man hunger,
let him eat at home;
that ye come not together unto condemnation.
And the rest will I set in order when I come.
As time went on I just developed a taste for getting into the nitty-gritty parts. Not saying I found them all but I did discover that in trying to find answers to some question or another (not always my own questions) I ended up reading lots of verses that had absolutely nothing to do with whatever info I was looking for. More than once I was at the point of "What's the use.", until it dawned on me while the verses I was reading still had information that was new to me on some other subject the Bible covers, that took away a lot of frustration. In hindsight if I now run across something that is new I follow that because I can always come back to the original question but finding that same verse that was about another subject is sometimes near to impossible to find again.
I hope this is some insight on why/how I still find Scripture more than just interesting even though I have gone through much scratching my head and saying "What are you (God) talking about?" on more than one occasion.
Buying books that 'explain the Bible' is a real cop-out. While reading for yourself might seem slower, in the end it is faster to understanding because you have to do a lot less back-tracking.
Time Out
Posts: 360 
Location: The desolate but charming outback of the prairies.
Location: The desolate but charming outback of the prairies.
February 23rd, 2008, 02:30 PM
What is scripture really than stories made up, exagerrated, parsed, translated, altered, invented, embellished and created out of the blue so tribal leaders could control the tribe and churches could get rich and powerful by using them as weapons and threats to control their folllowers.
Sticks and carrots (hell and heavens) have always worked to control the ignorant, and outlandish promises (immotrality, heaven, 70 virgins..) have developed into whole groups of people with nothing better to do than study the minutia of what it all means.It's like the Star Trek groupies who have created a whole fictional life based on another fiction.
What is scripture really than stories made up, exagerrated, parsed, translated, altered, invented, embellished and created out of the blue so tribal leaders could control the tribe and churches could get rich and powerful by using them as weapons and threats to control their folllowers.
Sticks and carrots (hell and heavens) have always worked to control the ignorant, and outlandish promises (immotrality, heaven, 70 virgins..) have developed into whole groups of people with nothing better to do than study the minutia of what it all means.It's like the Star Trek groupies who have created a whole fictional life based on another fiction.
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 10,273
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
February 23rd, 2008, 02:38 PM
Now if I allowed a child to insist that a duck I had under my arm was really a golden egg layin magic chicken without correcting the kid would that in any way be the action of a responsible benevolent adult or could I more properly be considered to be contributing to the delinguincy of a minor? And which would be the christian thing to do, encourage the filling of thier half empty glass or not extend the effort (in a shellfish manner) for the proper growth and evolution of the aformentioned specimin? Shotguns are great for flock control eh and anyway I didn't read the post you're objecting to so I don't really know if this post addresses your displeasure, which I lament ever so slightly having fostered by the alledged insults.
Quoting #juan
Very good people make mistakes in judgement Juan. I object to most self-declared christians of the day because they know little about the religion it's origin or the ten-thousand sects that claim to have the original word of the sky-god and a manual for accension to a fluffy paradisical delusion, they have all set thier chain in the millstone of the contemporary expression of the cult and as such have ceased the search for truth believing they have incorporated a finished flawless method,which they claim is the exclusive work of god, every word devine.
I have said that I'm not a religious man but I will respect those who are. The many stupid wars that have been fought over religion are among the reasons why I'm not religious. I have known lots of very good people who were religious and my parents.were among them. Using a shotgun to insult everyone doesn't help your argument.
Now if I allowed a child to insist that a duck I had under my arm was really a golden egg layin magic chicken without correcting the kid would that in any way be the action of a responsible benevolent adult or could I more properly be considered to be contributing to the delinguincy of a minor? And which would be the christian thing to do, encourage the filling of thier half empty glass or not extend the effort (in a shellfish manner) for the proper growth and evolution of the aformentioned specimin? Shotguns are great for flock control eh and anyway I didn't read the post you're objecting to so I don't really know if this post addresses your displeasure, which I lament ever so slightly having fostered by the alledged insults.
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 10,273
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
February 23rd, 2008, 03:32 PM
Quoting mrgrumpy
That Twain guy was often spot on wasn't he?
"I am quite sure that in matters of religion mans reasoning powers are not above those of a monkey"
Mark Twain
Mark Twain
Time Out
Posts: 360
Location: The desolate but charming outback of the prairies.
Location: The desolate but charming outback of the prairies.
February 23rd, 2008, 03:41 PM
Any Church should not promote any action if they don't have such instruction from Scripture. Scripture, by itself, is not corrupt nor does it promote unkind actions towards others.
Scriptural writing promotes, supports, directs and instructs all kinds of evil, murder, corruption, slavery, infanticide, torture, hatred, revenge, war,abuse of women,and just about every other kind of misery imaginable. It's all there in black and white. It's called the Old Testament.
Maybe you should give it a read before making such ridiculous statements.
Any Church should not promote any action if they don't have such instruction from Scripture. Scripture, by itself, is not corrupt nor does it promote unkind actions towards others.
Scriptural writing promotes, supports, directs and instructs all kinds of evil, murder, corruption, slavery, infanticide, torture, hatred, revenge, war,abuse of women,and just about every other kind of misery imaginable. It's all there in black and white. It's called the Old Testament.
Maybe you should give it a read before making such ridiculous statements.
Electoral Member
Posts: 903
Location: Red Deer AB
Location: Red Deer AB
February 23rd, 2008, 03:58 PM
Go ahead post some verses from the NT that support your view.
Quoting mrgrumpy
I might agree is it was not called "OLD" compared to "NEW", do you need the definitions to those two words?
Scriptural writing promotes, supports, directs and instructs all kinds of evil, murder, corruption, slavery, infanticide, torture, hatred, revenge, war,abuse of women,and just about every other kind of misery imaginable. It's all there in black and white. It's called the Old Testament.
Maybe you should give it a read before making such ridiculous statements.
Maybe you should give it a read before making such ridiculous statements.
Go ahead post some verses from the NT that support your view.
