Clever Clogs
Posts: 611 
February 19th, 2008, 03:13 PM
Quoting Scott Free
I think there is ample evidence that all religion is man made.
This assumption is not correct.
People at the start, at the time of Adam, were on one religion worshipping God alone, without any associate or equal.
In other words, Adam was a prophet of God. Adam together with his sons served God Almighty: the Creator.
In other words, Adam was a prophet of God. Adam together with his sons served God Almighty: the Creator.
Then, afterwards, they fell into idolatry and associating some peers or equals with God.
Therefore, God sent them many apostles to warn them of severe punishment if they keep up their idolatry and association, and to give the glad tidings for those who exclusively serve Him alone and do not associate with Him any one or any thing.
God – be exalted – said in the Quran 2: 213
كَانَ النَّاسُ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً فَبَعَثَ اللّهُ النَّبِيِّينَ مُبَشِّرِينَ وَمُنذِرِينَ وَأَنزَلَ مَعَهُمُ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ لِيَحْكُمَ بَيْنَ النَّاسِ فِيمَا اخْتَلَفُواْ فِيهِ وَمَا اخْتَلَفَ فِيهِ إِلاَّ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوهُ مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءتْهُمُ الْبَيِّنَاتُ بَغْيًا بَيْنَهُمْ فَهَدَى اللّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ لِمَا اخْتَلَفُواْ فِيهِ مِنَ الْحَقِّ بِإِذْنِهِ وَاللّهُ يَهْدِي مَن يَشَاء إِلَى صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ
The explanation: (People were one community [of monotheists],
and God sent prophets with the glad tidings and the warning, and sent down the [Heavenly] Scripture with them, indicating the true [religion]; that the [prophet] might judge people concerning their deviation [from monotheism];
but none deviated therefrom save those [religious leaders] given the [Scripture] even after the manifest [signs] had come to them, due to their 'greed and their wronging each other';
so God, with His permission, guided the believers to the truth from which they deviated; for God guides whom He pleases to a standard path [of monotheism.] )
and God sent prophets with the glad tidings and the warning, and sent down the [Heavenly] Scripture with them, indicating the true [religion]; that the [prophet] might judge people concerning their deviation [from monotheism];
but none deviated therefrom save those [religious leaders] given the [Scripture] even after the manifest [signs] had come to them, due to their 'greed and their wronging each other';
so God, with His permission, guided the believers to the truth from which they deviated; for God guides whom He pleases to a standard path [of monotheism.] )
Genius
Posts: 972
Location: BC
Location: BC
February 19th, 2008, 04:14 PM
Quoting eanassir
This isn't proof or evidence of anything except you believe this authors retelling of an old fable. In the original version of the story Adam and Eve were the first man and woman period. I have to ask why the new story? Why is it that now suddenly Adam is a profit? Could it be that a pedophile sought to dupe the idiot masses into believing he too was a profit and as evidence he made up this story? I think so. If not what evidence do you have that this isn't the case? Show it, demonstrate the truth for all to see! If he knew something we didn't then he must have brought forth some new knowledge, some insight other than a simple retelling that is a poor confirmation about himself?
This assumption is not correct.
People at the start, at the time of Adam, were on one religion worshipping God alone, without any associate or equal.
In other words, Adam was a prophet of God. Adam together with his sons served God Almighty: the Creator.
In other words, Adam was a prophet of God. Adam together with his sons served God Almighty: the Creator.
Then, afterwards, they fell into idolatry and associating some peers or equals with God.
Therefore, God sent them many apostles to warn them of severe punishment if they keep up their idolatry and association, and to give the glad tidings for those who exclusively serve Him alone and do not associate with Him any one or any thing.
God – be exalted – said in the Quran 2: 213
كَانَ النَّاسُ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً فَبَعَثَ اللّهُ النَّبِيِّينَ مُبَشِّرِينَ وَمُنذِرِينَ وَأَنزَلَ مَعَهُمُ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ لِيَحْكُمَ بَيْنَ النَّاسِ فِيمَا اخْتَلَفُواْ فِيهِ وَمَا اخْتَلَفَ فِيهِ إِلاَّ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوهُ مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءتْهُمُ الْبَيِّنَاتُ بَغْيًا بَيْنَهُمْ فَهَدَى اللّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ لِمَا اخْتَلَفُواْ فِيهِ مِنَ الْحَقِّ بِإِذْنِهِ وَاللّهُ يَهْدِي مَن يَشَاء إِلَى صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ
The explanation: (People were one community [of monotheists],
and God sent prophets with the glad tidings and the warning, and sent down the [Heavenly] Scripture with them, indicating the true [religion]; that the [prophet] might judge people concerning their deviation [from monotheism];
but none deviated therefrom save those [religious leaders] given the [Scripture] even after the manifest [signs] had come to them, due to their 'greed and their wronging each other';
so God, with His permission, guided the believers to the truth from which they deviated; for God guides whom He pleases to a standard path [of monotheism.] )
and God sent prophets with the glad tidings and the warning, and sent down the [Heavenly] Scripture with them, indicating the true [religion]; that the [prophet] might judge people concerning their deviation [from monotheism];
but none deviated therefrom save those [religious leaders] given the [Scripture] even after the manifest [signs] had come to them, due to their 'greed and their wronging each other';
so God, with His permission, guided the believers to the truth from which they deviated; for God guides whom He pleases to a standard path [of monotheism.] )
Super Genius
Posts: 1,384
Location: London, Ont. Canada
Location: London, Ont. Canada
February 19th, 2008, 04:20 PM
Quoting talloola
Who doesn't?
He knows not to get exicted when
the leafs play.
the leafs play.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,384
Location: London, Ont. Canada
Location: London, Ont. Canada
February 19th, 2008, 04:22 PM
Quoting mrgrumpy
Congrads on winning the A-hole of the month award.
Dear EANSSIR;
I TAKE IT YOU ARE A MUSLIM.
A FOLLOWER OF THAT SO CALL CALLED PROPHET.
THE CHILD RAPIST AND INFIDEL.
MAY YOU SEE THE ERROR OFYOUR WAYS AND FORSAKE YOUR FAITH IN WHAT THE WORLD HAS COME TO DISCOVER AS "THE STUDIDSET RELIGION OF ALL TIME".
YEAH, PEACE ASHOLE.
I TAKE IT YOU ARE A MUSLIM.
A FOLLOWER OF THAT SO CALL CALLED PROPHET.
THE CHILD RAPIST AND INFIDEL.
MAY YOU SEE THE ERROR OFYOUR WAYS AND FORSAKE YOUR FAITH IN WHAT THE WORLD HAS COME TO DISCOVER AS "THE STUDIDSET RELIGION OF ALL TIME".
YEAH, PEACE ASHOLE.
Genius
Posts: 972
Location: BC
Location: BC
February 19th, 2008, 04:40 PM
The religious can be given no leniency or benefit of the doubt. What they claim and their own actions and behaviour historically demonstrates the absolute worst of human darkness. Now today with the battle of the Christian forces against those of the Muslim we see that evil pouring out again causing untold misery. Both groups should be admonished for their lunacy, lies and deceit. They are the very scum of the earth no matter how they might plead and beg otherwise - the evidence is in. They are a vile malevolent lot that don't hesitate to kill in the name of a loving god. They twist and rape the word peace to get their own way. There is no moderate "Christian," there is no moderate "Muslim," history has demonstrated this all too well. They are armies of the deluded and brainwashed, a rallied force, waiting to unleash horrors on the planet at any given moment with the proper opportunity.
The only hope real peace has is that their twisted psychopathy be challenged at every moment so that they relinquish some or all of their delusions. So they can rejoin the community of man.
No one benefits from placating such a foe. There is no wisdom in respecting that which deserves non but our deepest loathing.
Quoting RomSpaceKnight
This is an unfair assessment
Congrads on winning the A-hole of the month award.
The religious can be given no leniency or benefit of the doubt. What they claim and their own actions and behaviour historically demonstrates the absolute worst of human darkness. Now today with the battle of the Christian forces against those of the Muslim we see that evil pouring out again causing untold misery. Both groups should be admonished for their lunacy, lies and deceit. They are the very scum of the earth no matter how they might plead and beg otherwise - the evidence is in. They are a vile malevolent lot that don't hesitate to kill in the name of a loving god. They twist and rape the word peace to get their own way. There is no moderate "Christian," there is no moderate "Muslim," history has demonstrated this all too well. They are armies of the deluded and brainwashed, a rallied force, waiting to unleash horrors on the planet at any given moment with the proper opportunity.
The only hope real peace has is that their twisted psychopathy be challenged at every moment so that they relinquish some or all of their delusions. So they can rejoin the community of man.
No one benefits from placating such a foe. There is no wisdom in respecting that which deserves non but our deepest loathing.
Knows No Bounds
Posts: 2,650 
Location: Vancouver Island
Location: Vancouver Island
February 19th, 2008, 05:27 PM
[quote=Scott Free;928291]This is an unfair assessment
The religious can be given no leniency or benefit of the doubt. What they claim and their own actions and behaviour historically demonstrates the absolute worst of human darkness. Now today with the battle of the Christian forces against those of the Muslim we see that evil pouring out again causing untold misery. Both groups should be admonished for their lunacy, lies and deceit. They are the very scum of the earth no matter how they might plead and beg otherwise - the evidence is in. They are a vile malevolent lot that don't hesitate to kill in the name of a loving god. They twist and rape the word peace to get their own way. There is no moderate "Christian," there is no moderate "Muslim," history has demonstrated this all too well. They are armies of the deluded and brainwashed, a rallied force, waiting to unleash horrors on the planet at any given moment with the proper opportunity.
Your post is so very true, we, who can see it for what it is, are forced to spend our lives
watching this behavior go on and on, between religions, it is disgusting.
Religions are the farthest thing from wanting peace, yet they preach it all the time,
and in the next breath judge everyone who doesn't think the way they do, and yes,
they will kill in the name of their religion.
Very hypocritical and blind.
[quote=Scott Free;928291]This is an unfair assessment
The religious can be given no leniency or benefit of the doubt. What they claim and their own actions and behaviour historically demonstrates the absolute worst of human darkness. Now today with the battle of the Christian forces against those of the Muslim we see that evil pouring out again causing untold misery. Both groups should be admonished for their lunacy, lies and deceit. They are the very scum of the earth no matter how they might plead and beg otherwise - the evidence is in. They are a vile malevolent lot that don't hesitate to kill in the name of a loving god. They twist and rape the word peace to get their own way. There is no moderate "Christian," there is no moderate "Muslim," history has demonstrated this all too well. They are armies of the deluded and brainwashed, a rallied force, waiting to unleash horrors on the planet at any given moment with the proper opportunity.
Your post is so very true, we, who can see it for what it is, are forced to spend our lives
watching this behavior go on and on, between religions, it is disgusting.
Religions are the farthest thing from wanting peace, yet they preach it all the time,
and in the next breath judge everyone who doesn't think the way they do, and yes,
they will kill in the name of their religion.
Very hypocritical and blind.
Time Out
Posts: 360 
Location: The desolate but charming outback of the prairies.
Location: The desolate but charming outback of the prairies.
February 19th, 2008, 05:38 PM
Well, it would be difficult to choOse but maybe a contest is in order;
Which is the world's STUPIDEST religion?
Some dolt walking thru the woods in the 19th century America and stumbling over gold tablets sent from God? Certainly made him lots of money.
A child rapist from medieval times claiming he is God's Prophet? Any fool should be able to see past that one.
A Jesus whose last words were "My God, why have you forsaken me"? Seems there's a few problems with that scenario.
The uber rich televangelist who likes stretch limos, glass cathedrals and young boys?
So many options...perhaps they're all equally qualified...
Well, it would be difficult to choOse but maybe a contest is in order;
Which is the world's STUPIDEST religion?
Some dolt walking thru the woods in the 19th century America and stumbling over gold tablets sent from God? Certainly made him lots of money.
A child rapist from medieval times claiming he is God's Prophet? Any fool should be able to see past that one.
A Jesus whose last words were "My God, why have you forsaken me"? Seems there's a few problems with that scenario.
The uber rich televangelist who likes stretch limos, glass cathedrals and young boys?
So many options...perhaps they're all equally qualified...
Genius
Posts: 972
Location: BC
Location: BC
February 19th, 2008, 06:13 PM
Worse yet is that most religious people are either hoping for all of our demise or actively working to bring it about!
I fail to see how religion can be framed as anything except an enemy of humanity and reason. They really want us all to die! They would have us believe that our only hope is in salvation from their god (whichever one that might be) and so they launch campaigns of prostelatizing as though "saving us" somehow justifies the greater evil they serve! It looks like benevolence but the underlying meme is anything but.
In terms of government, science, discovery, anthropology etc... religion has brought nothing to the table. They would have us accept their tenants based on antiquated notions that are completely false, first hand accounts of witnesses that are questionable at best, and messiahs that bring nothing new except rehashed social norms (current for their day) which redefined give them power over other people. They are able to claim authority by right of a god for which there is no evidence actually exists. One that it has been demonstrated is completely powerless in real world terms except in keeping alive stagnant concepts in peoples minds.
All this being said however, it is important to remember that they are completely powerless except in number. Their prayers go unanswered, their god doesn't help them, they want us to join them; they seek our approval. In short they want something from us which places us in control. We must call them to account. We must insist that they justify their belief in the unbelievable. Slowly as reason takes hold their numbers should dwindle and their threat decreased. They have only been able to survive this long because of their violent natures, vast number and our indifference and even our deference to them.
If we are to have reason and sanity to prevail we must stop placating them. They want all we have created destroyed! It is wrong and immoral to not rise against their challenge. It is wrong and immoral not to stop them cold in their tracks. It is wrong and immoral to give them any benefit at all.
I say immoral in that what they seek is the destruction of our very fabric: the fabric of science and the fabric of our humanity, our culture, our civilization, even our bloodlines!
It isn't right to tolerate that. Even the notion that intolerance of religion isn't PC is absurd! It isn't PC only in that there are so many of them. If they were a small group preaching such hatred they would never be tolerated. It is their number we should attack. We need to carve them away from the herd and talk sense to them. It is our only hope or they may make their deluded dreams of ending humanity a reality and no one will be around to see that no sky god is going to rescue us.
Quoting talloola
The reason I say that we should oppose and challenge the religious at every turn is that as Christopher Hitchens points out: all religion is concerned with wiping out our civilizations and everything it has accomplished. They want to replace it with their own vision of utopia which, more often than not, wants us all to die in horrible ways so their sky god can remake the earth. Your post is so very true, we, who can see it for what it is, are forced to spend our lives
watching this behavior go on and on, between religions, it is disgusting.
Religions are the farthest thing from wanting peace, yet they preach it all the time,
and in the next breath judge everyone who doesn't think the way they do, and yes,
they will kill in the name of their religion.
Very hypocritical and blind.
watching this behavior go on and on, between religions, it is disgusting.
Religions are the farthest thing from wanting peace, yet they preach it all the time,
and in the next breath judge everyone who doesn't think the way they do, and yes,
they will kill in the name of their religion.
Very hypocritical and blind.
Worse yet is that most religious people are either hoping for all of our demise or actively working to bring it about!
I fail to see how religion can be framed as anything except an enemy of humanity and reason. They really want us all to die! They would have us believe that our only hope is in salvation from their god (whichever one that might be) and so they launch campaigns of prostelatizing as though "saving us" somehow justifies the greater evil they serve! It looks like benevolence but the underlying meme is anything but.
In terms of government, science, discovery, anthropology etc... religion has brought nothing to the table. They would have us accept their tenants based on antiquated notions that are completely false, first hand accounts of witnesses that are questionable at best, and messiahs that bring nothing new except rehashed social norms (current for their day) which redefined give them power over other people. They are able to claim authority by right of a god for which there is no evidence actually exists. One that it has been demonstrated is completely powerless in real world terms except in keeping alive stagnant concepts in peoples minds.
All this being said however, it is important to remember that they are completely powerless except in number. Their prayers go unanswered, their god doesn't help them, they want us to join them; they seek our approval. In short they want something from us which places us in control. We must call them to account. We must insist that they justify their belief in the unbelievable. Slowly as reason takes hold their numbers should dwindle and their threat decreased. They have only been able to survive this long because of their violent natures, vast number and our indifference and even our deference to them.
If we are to have reason and sanity to prevail we must stop placating them. They want all we have created destroyed! It is wrong and immoral to not rise against their challenge. It is wrong and immoral not to stop them cold in their tracks. It is wrong and immoral to give them any benefit at all.
I say immoral in that what they seek is the destruction of our very fabric: the fabric of science and the fabric of our humanity, our culture, our civilization, even our bloodlines!
It isn't right to tolerate that. Even the notion that intolerance of religion isn't PC is absurd! It isn't PC only in that there are so many of them. If they were a small group preaching such hatred they would never be tolerated. It is their number we should attack. We need to carve them away from the herd and talk sense to them. It is our only hope or they may make their deluded dreams of ending humanity a reality and no one will be around to see that no sky god is going to rescue us.
Clever Clogs
Posts: 611
February 20th, 2008, 01:44 PM
But your reply is ambiguous. Whom you mean to be a pedophile, although I see such words are not proper and bad?
Quoting Scott Free
This was in reply to your idea that all religions are fabricated. So I mentioned to you this aya of the Glorious Quran, inidcating that from the time of Adam, God sent a large number of apostles.
This isn't proof or evidence of anything except you believe this authors retelling of an old fable. In the original version of the story Adam and Eve were the first man and woman period. I have to ask why the new story? Why is it that now suddenly Adam is a profit? Could it be that a pedophile sought to dupe the idiot masses into believing he too was a profit and as evidence he made up this story? I think so. If not what evidence do you have that this isn't the case? Show it, demonstrate the truth for all to see! If he knew something we didn't then he must have brought forth some new knowledge, some insight other than a simple retelling that is a poor confirmation about himself?
But your reply is ambiguous. Whom you mean to be a pedophile, although I see such words are not proper and bad?
Clever Clogs
Posts: 611
February 20th, 2008, 02:07 PM
Quoting Scott Free
There is no moderate "Christian," there is no moderate "Muslim,"
This proves that there is another party: other than Christians and Muslims. This third party who are neither Christians nor Muslims; this party tries to insert hatred and enmity between the followers of the two major heavenly religions: Christianity and Islam, and that is to their own advantage.
All people know this third party: it is behind all the wars that had been enkindled and behind all the evil; they are malicious and wicked.
Jesus Christ, the apostle of God's love and Prophet Mohammed who was sent a mercy for all nations and worlds; such people do not agree about these two noble prophets, but they accept devils and Satan and follow its steps.
They killed the prophets of God and worshipped the idols.
But in spite of them Christians and Muslims will unite in the future, by Jesus Christ.
All people know this third party: it is behind all the wars that had been enkindled and behind all the evil; they are malicious and wicked.
Jesus Christ, the apostle of God's love and Prophet Mohammed who was sent a mercy for all nations and worlds; such people do not agree about these two noble prophets, but they accept devils and Satan and follow its steps.
They killed the prophets of God and worshipped the idols.
But in spite of them Christians and Muslims will unite in the future, by Jesus Christ.
Clever Clogs
Posts: 611
February 20th, 2008, 02:52 PM
What evil is in these commandments? Such instructions are essential for a peaceful and happy community.
Or what do they want: an atheist community, murdering, stealing, do not pay attention to parents and do not adore the Creator?
Such claims and their speakers are liars, to themselves before lying to others, in addition to that: God only knows of their complexes, and their true causes for such zeal and active work, and who move them from behind the curtain.
Quoting Scott Free
The reason I say that we should oppose and challenge the religious at every turn is that as Christopher Hitchens points out: all religion is concerned with wiping out our civilizations and everything it has accomplished. They want to replace it with their own vision of utopia which, more often than not, wants us all to die in horrible ways so their sky god can remake the earth.
Worse yet is that most religious people are either hoping for all of our demise or actively working to bring it about!
I fail to see how religion can be framed as anything except an enemy of humanity and reason. They really want us all to die! They would have us believe that our only hope is in salvation from their god (whichever one that might be) and so they launch campaigns of prostelatizing as though "saving us" somehow justifies the greater evil they serve! It looks like benevolence but the underlying meme is anything but.
In terms of government, science, discovery, anthropology etc... religion has brought nothing to the table. They would have us accept their tenants based on antiquated notions that are completely false, first hand accounts of witnesses that are questionable at best, and messiahs that bring nothing new except rehashed social norms (current for their day) which redefined give them power over other people. They are able to claim authority by right of a god for which there is no evidence actually exists. One that it has been demonstrated is completely powerless in real world terms except in keeping alive stagnant concepts in peoples minds.
All this being said however, it is important to remember that they are completely powerless except in number. Their prayers go unanswered, their god doesn't help them, they want us to join them; they seek our approval. In short they want something from us which places us in control. We must call them to account. We must insist that they justify their belief in the unbelievable. Slowly as reason takes hold their numbers should dwindle and their threat decreased. They have only been able to survive this long because of their violent natures, vast number and our indifference and even our deference to them.
If we are to have reason and sanity to prevail we must stop placating them. They want all we have created destroyed! It is wrong and immoral to not rise against their challenge. It is wrong and immoral not to stop them cold in their tracks. It is wrong and immoral to give them any benefit at all.
I say immoral in that what they seek is the destruction of our very fabric: the fabric of science and the fabric of our humanity, our culture, our civilization, even our bloodlines!
It isn't right to tolerate that. Even the notion that intolerance of religion isn't PC is absurd! It isn't PC only in that there are so many of them. If they were a small group preaching such hatred they would never be tolerated. It is their number we should attack. We need to carve them away from the herd and talk sense to them. It is our only hope or they may make their deluded dreams of ending humanity a reality and no one will be around to see that no sky god is going to rescue us.
Worse yet is that most religious people are either hoping for all of our demise or actively working to bring it about!
I fail to see how religion can be framed as anything except an enemy of humanity and reason. They really want us all to die! They would have us believe that our only hope is in salvation from their god (whichever one that might be) and so they launch campaigns of prostelatizing as though "saving us" somehow justifies the greater evil they serve! It looks like benevolence but the underlying meme is anything but.
In terms of government, science, discovery, anthropology etc... religion has brought nothing to the table. They would have us accept their tenants based on antiquated notions that are completely false, first hand accounts of witnesses that are questionable at best, and messiahs that bring nothing new except rehashed social norms (current for their day) which redefined give them power over other people. They are able to claim authority by right of a god for which there is no evidence actually exists. One that it has been demonstrated is completely powerless in real world terms except in keeping alive stagnant concepts in peoples minds.
All this being said however, it is important to remember that they are completely powerless except in number. Their prayers go unanswered, their god doesn't help them, they want us to join them; they seek our approval. In short they want something from us which places us in control. We must call them to account. We must insist that they justify their belief in the unbelievable. Slowly as reason takes hold their numbers should dwindle and their threat decreased. They have only been able to survive this long because of their violent natures, vast number and our indifference and even our deference to them.
If we are to have reason and sanity to prevail we must stop placating them. They want all we have created destroyed! It is wrong and immoral to not rise against their challenge. It is wrong and immoral not to stop them cold in their tracks. It is wrong and immoral to give them any benefit at all.
I say immoral in that what they seek is the destruction of our very fabric: the fabric of science and the fabric of our humanity, our culture, our civilization, even our bloodlines!
It isn't right to tolerate that. Even the notion that intolerance of religion isn't PC is absurd! It isn't PC only in that there are so many of them. If they were a small group preaching such hatred they would never be tolerated. It is their number we should attack. We need to carve them away from the herd and talk sense to them. It is our only hope or they may make their deluded dreams of ending humanity a reality and no one will be around to see that no sky god is going to rescue us.
I only say: read what is behind the lines and words.
Who benefit from stirring people against the religion? Specially they speak about the large number of followers, and they mean Christians and Muslims who count thousands of millions.
Not all religions are bad, the religion of God is true: to serve God alone, and not to ascribe any equal to him. This is the First of all the commandments.
The Ten Commandments included in the Torah, and recognized in the Gospel and mentioned in the Quran as a light for all humanity.
These principles are essential for a happy life and a peaceful community:
Who benefit from stirring people against the religion? Specially they speak about the large number of followers, and they mean Christians and Muslims who count thousands of millions.
Not all religions are bad, the religion of God is true: to serve God alone, and not to ascribe any equal to him. This is the First of all the commandments.
The Ten Commandments included in the Torah, and recognized in the Gospel and mentioned in the Quran as a light for all humanity.
These principles are essential for a happy life and a peaceful community:
- Recognize God alone.
- Obey the parents.
- Do not murder.
- Do not steal.
- Do not give false witness.
- Do not commit adultery.
- And the rest of the Ten Commandments.
What evil is in these commandments? Such instructions are essential for a peaceful and happy community.
Or what do they want: an atheist community, murdering, stealing, do not pay attention to parents and do not adore the Creator?
Such claims and their speakers are liars, to themselves before lying to others, in addition to that: God only knows of their complexes, and their true causes for such zeal and active work, and who move them from behind the curtain.
Genius
Posts: 972
Location: BC
Location: BC
February 20th, 2008, 05:10 PM
Is this the proof then? Are you seriously suggesting that I should embrace wish thinking - breed my own meaning into the words that presumably came from god?
If this is what I need to do in order to understand the words then I would present that as proof that they are indeed false and only man made. Is it not reasonable to think a one true god could be more precise? Is it not reasonable to think god could be more precise - would be more precise - that god wouldn't need to speak in vagaries which can only mislead and be misinterpreted? Vagaries are a human tool; the realm of artists and poets, which makes precise sense that a "prophet" would use such language because he is after all human - not god or from god.
There would be nothing to stop any artist from claiming their inspiration comes from god if they didn't posses more good sense then your beloved profits, fortunately most do have such sense. Imagine if Plato had said he was from god or Stephen King or L Ron Hubert - oops that's right he did claim such a thing!
If we look carefully at the endeavours of great thinkers and artistic geniuses and left common sense aside then who could doubt Whitehouse and his Eros came from god? Who could doubt that a 14 year old boy that created David wasn't guided by god? Need I remind you how many people thought Hitler was from god? Luckily he lost the war but if he hadn't then his claims would be substantiated wouldn't they? He advocated the exact same methodologies as Moses except Mosses was triumphant - so we have a Jewish religion and we don't have Nazis religion.
The reality is that people are very clever and some outstandingly so but all still must employ human tools for their creations. A "prophet" that employs those same tools isn't from god but is an artist using identifiable artistic tools. People are buffaloed into thinking "prophets" are from god simply because they claim they are, which almost assuredly means they are not if they require wish thinking and fantastical rearrangements of what we know is true in order to accept their "truth."
[quote=eanassir;928475]
Specially they speak about the large number of followers, and they mean Christians and Muslims who count thousands of millions. [/quote]
That's right except I mean ALL religion. The pursuit of god and adherence to moral principal doesn't require membership to a religion. Religion, with it's stagnant doctrines and fundamental clinging to antiquated notions actually hold people back from the moral discussion and it certainly holds them back from discovering god. Instead of perusing their own vision of such things; instead of making a contribution to the discussion, they are left espousing the rhetoric of someone else's vision - how sad! How despicable!
I would argue that they are and more; some religions are worse than others but they are all an abomination against human intellect, reason, and the cumulative work of our species!
The Christian religion, the religion of Islam, the Jewish faith are all man made and the adherents are every bit as silly as those awaiting the arrival of John Frum in south sea cargo cults. There simply is no doubt about it once you have really examined them with intellect instead of "faith."
Why is it that religion would have you shut your mind off? To turn away from the very thing that defines what it is to be human? Don't think, don't reason, the religionists says but have "faith."
I'm sorry but I can have no faith in such things without tremendous proof and I certainly won't turn away from my reasoning faculties - if there is a god surely that is his greatest gift to us (our intellect) and how outrageous, how blasphemous to refuse it! To, instead of perusing such goals as finding him, without the very tools he might have given us to do that very thing - it is completely and profoundly stupid thing to do!
The "prophets" and their "religions" spit in the face of gods greatest gift to us! The religionists would have us return to the trees throwing fruit and scat at each other! I refuse their argument on the very basis that if there is a god I can think of nothing that should offend him more!
[quote=eanassir;928475]
The Ten Commandments included in the Torah, and recognized in the Gospel and mentioned in the Quran as a light for all humanity.
These principles are essential for a happy life and a peaceful community:
What evil is in these commandments? Such instructions are essential for a peaceful and happy community.
Or what do they want: an atheist community, murdering, stealing, do not pay attention to parents and do not adore the Creator? [/quote]
Lets us examine the question of what evil those commandments have caused:
1) They were not created or handed down from god to Mosses but are well documented as teachings of Horus in the Egyptian book of the dead. Moses plagiarized them and then claimed he got them from god - what god do you suppose he meant? Horus I would think. The harm here is in starting yet another mythology that stagnates human endeavour and worse pitches that mythology against others! This deception alone accounts for untold human misery!
2) Mosses made many laws which included rules on trading in human flesh! We can not examine only one set without looking at his entire body of work. His laws on slavery and human trade have created even more human tragedy that is impossible to measure!
3) When Mosses returned from the mount with his commandments he immediately broke them (which demonstrates well what he really thought of god) and slaughtered thousands of people! Why did he do this? Because his god is a jealous god! Moses by his own words was a polytheist! Moses by his own actions demonstrated what he really thought of his god! If he really got those commandments from god do you think he would have been so quick to break them - surely not! If he plagerized them from Horus in a bid to gain power over a group of people would that explain his actions better - you bet. He acted and behaved much like Saddam did over his people in Iraq. Mosses was a tyrant and a lier!
4) Today, through social evolution, there isn't a single one of those commandments that don't have an exception, that any moral person would agree with. How is this possible if they really came from god? Are you suggesting that Hitler should have been unopposed? If you followed those commandments then you must! How immoral those commandments really are! But you don't believe them absolutely because that isn't possible and why is that? Because they are the product of a drunken madman bent on tyranny; that's why!
No, your "prophet" is the lier, the fraud and you are his foolish naive. I am only pointing out the truth to you because, for all our sakes, I would like to see you break free from your intellectual bonds that tie you to antiquated rhetoric.
Cling as you must you already are now an unbeliever - such is the magnificent gift "god" has given to people, that in the face of reason the mind can not be truly shut down. I have not sewn the seeds of doubt but only proved my point so that your own doubts might shine forward and be like a guide.
Now go and fight your demons. Will you be foolish or will you recognize that you never did believe you only deluded yourself with "faith."
If you don't like my words then have your god strike me down. He can't and he won't because he isn't real!
Quoting eanassir
I only say: read what is behind the lines and words.
Who benefit from stirring people against the religion?
Who benefit from stirring people against the religion?
Is this the proof then? Are you seriously suggesting that I should embrace wish thinking - breed my own meaning into the words that presumably came from god?
If this is what I need to do in order to understand the words then I would present that as proof that they are indeed false and only man made. Is it not reasonable to think a one true god could be more precise? Is it not reasonable to think god could be more precise - would be more precise - that god wouldn't need to speak in vagaries which can only mislead and be misinterpreted? Vagaries are a human tool; the realm of artists and poets, which makes precise sense that a "prophet" would use such language because he is after all human - not god or from god.
There would be nothing to stop any artist from claiming their inspiration comes from god if they didn't posses more good sense then your beloved profits, fortunately most do have such sense. Imagine if Plato had said he was from god or Stephen King or L Ron Hubert - oops that's right he did claim such a thing!
If we look carefully at the endeavours of great thinkers and artistic geniuses and left common sense aside then who could doubt Whitehouse and his Eros came from god? Who could doubt that a 14 year old boy that created David wasn't guided by god? Need I remind you how many people thought Hitler was from god? Luckily he lost the war but if he hadn't then his claims would be substantiated wouldn't they? He advocated the exact same methodologies as Moses except Mosses was triumphant - so we have a Jewish religion and we don't have Nazis religion.
The reality is that people are very clever and some outstandingly so but all still must employ human tools for their creations. A "prophet" that employs those same tools isn't from god but is an artist using identifiable artistic tools. People are buffaloed into thinking "prophets" are from god simply because they claim they are, which almost assuredly means they are not if they require wish thinking and fantastical rearrangements of what we know is true in order to accept their "truth."
[quote=eanassir;928475]
Specially they speak about the large number of followers, and they mean Christians and Muslims who count thousands of millions. [/quote]
That's right except I mean ALL religion. The pursuit of god and adherence to moral principal doesn't require membership to a religion. Religion, with it's stagnant doctrines and fundamental clinging to antiquated notions actually hold people back from the moral discussion and it certainly holds them back from discovering god. Instead of perusing their own vision of such things; instead of making a contribution to the discussion, they are left espousing the rhetoric of someone else's vision - how sad! How despicable!
Quoting eanassir
Not all religions are bad, the religion of God is true: to serve God alone, and not to ascribe any equal to him. This is the First of all the commandments.
I would argue that they are and more; some religions are worse than others but they are all an abomination against human intellect, reason, and the cumulative work of our species!
The Christian religion, the religion of Islam, the Jewish faith are all man made and the adherents are every bit as silly as those awaiting the arrival of John Frum in south sea cargo cults. There simply is no doubt about it once you have really examined them with intellect instead of "faith."
Why is it that religion would have you shut your mind off? To turn away from the very thing that defines what it is to be human? Don't think, don't reason, the religionists says but have "faith."
I'm sorry but I can have no faith in such things without tremendous proof and I certainly won't turn away from my reasoning faculties - if there is a god surely that is his greatest gift to us (our intellect) and how outrageous, how blasphemous to refuse it! To, instead of perusing such goals as finding him, without the very tools he might have given us to do that very thing - it is completely and profoundly stupid thing to do!
The "prophets" and their "religions" spit in the face of gods greatest gift to us! The religionists would have us return to the trees throwing fruit and scat at each other! I refuse their argument on the very basis that if there is a god I can think of nothing that should offend him more!
[quote=eanassir;928475]
The Ten Commandments included in the Torah, and recognized in the Gospel and mentioned in the Quran as a light for all humanity.
These principles are essential for a happy life and a peaceful community:
- Recognize God alone.
- Obey the parents.
- Do not murder.
- Do not steal.
- Do not give false witness.
- Do not commit adultery.
- And the rest of the Ten Commandments.
What evil is in these commandments? Such instructions are essential for a peaceful and happy community.
Or what do they want: an atheist community, murdering, stealing, do not pay attention to parents and do not adore the Creator? [/quote]
Lets us examine the question of what evil those commandments have caused:
1) They were not created or handed down from god to Mosses but are well documented as teachings of Horus in the Egyptian book of the dead. Moses plagiarized them and then claimed he got them from god - what god do you suppose he meant? Horus I would think. The harm here is in starting yet another mythology that stagnates human endeavour and worse pitches that mythology against others! This deception alone accounts for untold human misery!
2) Mosses made many laws which included rules on trading in human flesh! We can not examine only one set without looking at his entire body of work. His laws on slavery and human trade have created even more human tragedy that is impossible to measure!
3) When Mosses returned from the mount with his commandments he immediately broke them (which demonstrates well what he really thought of god) and slaughtered thousands of people! Why did he do this? Because his god is a jealous god! Moses by his own words was a polytheist! Moses by his own actions demonstrated what he really thought of his god! If he really got those commandments from god do you think he would have been so quick to break them - surely not! If he plagerized them from Horus in a bid to gain power over a group of people would that explain his actions better - you bet. He acted and behaved much like Saddam did over his people in Iraq. Mosses was a tyrant and a lier!
4) Today, through social evolution, there isn't a single one of those commandments that don't have an exception, that any moral person would agree with. How is this possible if they really came from god? Are you suggesting that Hitler should have been unopposed? If you followed those commandments then you must! How immoral those commandments really are! But you don't believe them absolutely because that isn't possible and why is that? Because they are the product of a drunken madman bent on tyranny; that's why!
Quoting eanassir
Such claims and their speakers are liars, to themselves before lying to others, in addition to that: God only knows of their complexes, and their true causes for such zeal and active work, and who move them from behind the curtain.
No, your "prophet" is the lier, the fraud and you are his foolish naive. I am only pointing out the truth to you because, for all our sakes, I would like to see you break free from your intellectual bonds that tie you to antiquated rhetoric.
Cling as you must you already are now an unbeliever - such is the magnificent gift "god" has given to people, that in the face of reason the mind can not be truly shut down. I have not sewn the seeds of doubt but only proved my point so that your own doubts might shine forward and be like a guide.
Now go and fight your demons. Will you be foolish or will you recognize that you never did believe you only deluded yourself with "faith."
If you don't like my words then have your god strike me down. He can't and he won't because he isn't real!
Knows No Bounds
Posts: 2,650
Location: Vancouver Island
Location: Vancouver Island
February 20th, 2008, 06:05 PM
my lifetime,BUT, it will take so long that even our great grandchildren won't be able
to say ,that, "sound minds prevail in my world", but it WILL happen, and that is what we
have to be optimistic about, (if that is possible).
There are so many of them, as you say, and among those, there are so many who believe because they are brainwashed to believe, and can't think any other way, and then there
are those who 'don't ' believe, but pretend they do, to gain what they need to gain in
life, eg. politics, and of course the extremest religious believers, have taken religion to
a level of 'insanity', and the should be feared by all, but, for some reason, even the sheep of the different religions still follow along, with blind obedience, and don't even
try to think independently, then there are those who make their living through religion, and they are driven by money, and have no morality either way, so, I'm afraid we are
stuck with them for many generations into the future.
I am an example of 'how' individuals are gradually changing, as I was born into a 'normal'
sort of religious family, father-irish catholic, mother-high church of england. My father
made sure I went to catholic school, and attended catachism and church, and I did all
of those things, and learned a great deal about the catholic faith. At the age of 12, I
began to change, developed a curiosity about the religion apart from what I was taught,
began to ask questions of my Dad, and he was very opened minded, and wanted me to
figure it out in my own way, about believing/not believing in god, so that was
a huge turning point for me, but, just me, as everyone around me didn't want to admit
like I did, that there were lots of reasons to ask questions, they wanted to accept what
they were told, and don't shake things up, I couldn't do that.
Quoting Scott Free
I think, as time goes by, the masses will change considerably, as I have seen throughout
The reason I say that we should oppose and challenge
It isn't right to tolerate that. Even the notion that intolerance of religion isn't PC is absurd! It isn't PC only in that there are so many of them. If they were a small group preaching such hatred they would never be tolerated. It is their number we should attack. We need to carve them away from the herd and talk sense to them. It is our only hope or they may make their deluded dreams of ending humanity a reality and no one will be around to see that no sky god is going to rescue us.
It isn't right to tolerate that. Even the notion that intolerance of religion isn't PC is absurd! It isn't PC only in that there are so many of them. If they were a small group preaching such hatred they would never be tolerated. It is their number we should attack. We need to carve them away from the herd and talk sense to them. It is our only hope or they may make their deluded dreams of ending humanity a reality and no one will be around to see that no sky god is going to rescue us.
my lifetime,BUT, it will take so long that even our great grandchildren won't be able
to say ,that, "sound minds prevail in my world", but it WILL happen, and that is what we
have to be optimistic about, (if that is possible).
There are so many of them, as you say, and among those, there are so many who believe because they are brainwashed to believe, and can't think any other way, and then there
are those who 'don't ' believe, but pretend they do, to gain what they need to gain in
life, eg. politics, and of course the extremest religious believers, have taken religion to
a level of 'insanity', and the should be feared by all, but, for some reason, even the sheep of the different religions still follow along, with blind obedience, and don't even
try to think independently, then there are those who make their living through religion, and they are driven by money, and have no morality either way, so, I'm afraid we are
stuck with them for many generations into the future.
I am an example of 'how' individuals are gradually changing, as I was born into a 'normal'
sort of religious family, father-irish catholic, mother-high church of england. My father
made sure I went to catholic school, and attended catachism and church, and I did all
of those things, and learned a great deal about the catholic faith. At the age of 12, I
began to change, developed a curiosity about the religion apart from what I was taught,
began to ask questions of my Dad, and he was very opened minded, and wanted me to
figure it out in my own way, about believing/not believing in god, so that was
a huge turning point for me, but, just me, as everyone around me didn't want to admit
like I did, that there were lots of reasons to ask questions, they wanted to accept what
they were told, and don't shake things up, I couldn't do that.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,384
Location: London, Ont. Canada
Location: London, Ont. Canada
February 20th, 2008, 07:52 PM
Quoting Scott Free
There is no battle between Christianity and Islam. There is a battle between Imperialist forces and regional resistance forces. If Osama had kept his attacks to Saudi forces and American interest within the ME there would be no war. Admittedly the regional resistance forces are mostly illiterate and resort to barbaric methods of waging war. GWB used the word "crusade" but he has about as much authority to call for Crusade as Osama does for Jihad.
This is an unfair assessment
The religious can be given no leniency or benefit of the doubt. What they claim and their own actions and behaviour historically demonstrates the absolute worst of human darkness. Now today with the battle of the Christian forces against those of the Muslim we see that evil pouring out again causing untold misery. Both groups should be admonished for their lunacy, lies and deceit. They are the very scum of the earth no matter how they might plead and beg otherwise - the evidence is in. They are a vile malevolent lot that don't hesitate to kill in the name of a loving god. They twist and rape the word peace to get their own way. There is no moderate "Christian," there is no moderate "Muslim," history has demonstrated this all too well. They are armies of the deluded and brainwashed, a rallied force, waiting to unleash horrors on the planet at any given moment with the proper opportunity.
The only hope real peace has is that their twisted psychopathy be challenged at every moment so that they relinquish some or all of their delusions. So they can rejoin the community of man.
No one benefits from placating such a foe. There is no wisdom in respecting that which deserves non but our deepest loathing.
The religious can be given no leniency or benefit of the doubt. What they claim and their own actions and behaviour historically demonstrates the absolute worst of human darkness. Now today with the battle of the Christian forces against those of the Muslim we see that evil pouring out again causing untold misery. Both groups should be admonished for their lunacy, lies and deceit. They are the very scum of the earth no matter how they might plead and beg otherwise - the evidence is in. They are a vile malevolent lot that don't hesitate to kill in the name of a loving god. They twist and rape the word peace to get their own way. There is no moderate "Christian," there is no moderate "Muslim," history has demonstrated this all too well. They are armies of the deluded and brainwashed, a rallied force, waiting to unleash horrors on the planet at any given moment with the proper opportunity.
The only hope real peace has is that their twisted psychopathy be challenged at every moment so that they relinquish some or all of their delusions. So they can rejoin the community of man.
No one benefits from placating such a foe. There is no wisdom in respecting that which deserves non but our deepest loathing.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,384
Location: London, Ont. Canada
Location: London, Ont. Canada
February 20th, 2008, 07:57 PM
Quoting eanassir
And your assumption is based on a belief in the time line of the Old Testament. By the majority of people in the western world that timeline has been proven false. Archealogical digs have shown pre-modern humans and Neanderthals to have had spiritual beliefs. Even when Cain killed his brother he went to live with the "others".
This assumption is not correct.
People at the start, at the time of Adam, were on one religion worshipping God alone, without any associate or equal.
In other words, Adam was a prophet of God. Adam together with his sons served God Almighty: the Creator.
In other words, Adam was a prophet of God. Adam together with his sons served God Almighty: the Creator.
Then, afterwards, they fell into idolatry and associating some peers or equals with God.
Therefore, God sent them many apostles to warn them of severe punishment if they keep up their idolatry and association, and to give the glad tidings for those who exclusively serve Him alone and do not associate with Him any one or any thing.
God – be exalted – said in the Quran 2: 213
كَانَ النَّاسُ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً فَبَعَثَ اللّهُ النَّبِيِّينَ مُبَشِّرِينَ وَمُنذِرِينَ وَأَنزَلَ مَعَهُمُ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ لِيَحْكُمَ بَيْنَ النَّاسِ فِيمَا اخْتَلَفُواْ فِيهِ وَمَا اخْتَلَفَ فِيهِ إِلاَّ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوهُ مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءتْهُمُ الْبَيِّنَاتُ بَغْيًا بَيْنَهُمْ فَهَدَى اللّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ لِمَا اخْتَلَفُواْ فِيهِ مِنَ الْحَقِّ بِإِذْنِهِ وَاللّهُ يَهْدِي مَن يَشَاء إِلَى صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ
The explanation: (People were one community [of monotheists],
and God sent prophets with the glad tidings and the warning, and sent down the [Heavenly] Scripture with them, indicating the true [religion]; that the [prophet] might judge people concerning their deviation [from monotheism];
but none deviated therefrom save those [religious leaders] given the [Scripture] even after the manifest [signs] had come to them, due to their 'greed and their wronging each other';
so God, with His permission, guided the believers to the truth from which they deviated; for God guides whom He pleases to a standard path [of monotheism.] )
and God sent prophets with the glad tidings and the warning, and sent down the [Heavenly] Scripture with them, indicating the true [religion]; that the [prophet] might judge people concerning their deviation [from monotheism];
but none deviated therefrom save those [religious leaders] given the [Scripture] even after the manifest [signs] had come to them, due to their 'greed and their wronging each other';
so God, with His permission, guided the believers to the truth from which they deviated; for God guides whom He pleases to a standard path [of monotheism.] )
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 4,329
Location: Minnesota: Gopher State
Location: Minnesota: Gopher State
February 20th, 2008, 10:33 PM
Scientology:
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/feb...learwater-hom/
``Shawn Lonsdale, who became one of the most bedeviling local critics of the Church of Scientology, died of an apparent suicide at his Clearwater home this past weekend. He was 39. There was no sign of foul play, said Clearwater police spokeswoman Elizabeth Daly-Watts.``
Sounds a bit too convenient since the cult controls all pols in that area.
Scientology:
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/feb...learwater-hom/
``Shawn Lonsdale, who became one of the most bedeviling local critics of the Church of Scientology, died of an apparent suicide at his Clearwater home this past weekend. He was 39. There was no sign of foul play, said Clearwater police spokeswoman Elizabeth Daly-Watts.``
Sounds a bit too convenient since the cult controls all pols in that area.
