Are you looking for proof that God exists?

[cj44]

Are you looking for proof that God exists? Belief doesn't come through the five senses. In Jesus' day, he performed many miracles before the eyes of many people. Even so, not every person that witnessed these miracles believed what Jesus taught. "Proof" doesn't give birth to faith. Evidence doesn't produce belief. This is in regards to spiritual matters. I am not speaking of chemistry, physics and sciences.

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

[DaSleeper]

 

[cj44]

Excellent proof Sleeper. God's Creation.

 

[Sal]

Are you looking for proof that God exists? Belief doesn't come through the five senses. In Jesus' day, he performed many miracles before the eyes of many people. Even so, not every person that witnessed these miracles believed what Jesus taught. "Proof" doesn't give birth to faith. Evidence doesn't produce belief. This is in regards to spiritual matters. I am not speaking of chemistry, physics and sciences.

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

first off nice pics Das...now back to the topic

CJ I have a question for you regarding proof of existence. I have never doubted god's existence even when I was in a rage against him. I also do not have a problem with atheists or agnostics. I used to have a problem with heavy handed Christians but the older I get the more mellow I have become with that too. So essentially I don't care what anyone else does or does not believe except for what they can either teach me or share with me regarding their journey. I have always known he existed it's always been his nature that I have wrestled with. Still do.

What do you think of near death experiences and the stories people tell after? Is this on topic here?

 

[SLM]

Am I looking for proof that God exists? No. See I always figured it was the message that was the most important part and the way I look at it if you're focused on looking for proof you're probably disregarding the message, or at least a good part of it, because your focus is elsewhere.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that God exists and He has a message, a philosophy, whatever you want to call it, for all of us. What's likely to be the most important thing, to embrace the message/philosophy even if we regard God as more of an abstract notion or that we focus solely on the existence of God even when it might be detrimental or run contrary to the message itself?

Life is about the journey, not the destination. The thing is, the way I understand Christian philosophy, if we do well with the journey then we'll arrive at the destination without incident. Anything outside of that is all about sidelining the journey, going off path such as it is for something that, had you just stayed on the path, you'd be experiencing anyway.

 

[cj44]

first off nice pics Das...now back to the topic

CJ I have a question for you regarding proof of existence. I have never doubted god's existence even when I was in a rage against him. I also do not have a problem with atheists or agnostics. I used to have a problem with heavy handed Christians but the older I get the more mellow I have become with that too. So essentially I don't care what anyone else does or does not believe except for what they can either teach me or share with me regarding their journey. I have always known he existed it's always been his nature that I have wrestled with. Still do.

What do you think of near death experiences and the stories people tell after? Is this on topic here?

Ahh. I don't worry about staying on topic, Sal. In regards to near death experiences, my comments will vary as do the accounts of the experiences. Some may argue that the near death experiences are delusions. Some will insist the experience "prooves" a particular doctrine or view. My best response is I really have no idea. Unusual unexplainable (according to current science) things have happened to me - not a near death experience, but other things. I am a person that tends to like proofs. Funny, I know. So, I put those unexplained things that occurred in my life under the scrutiny of current science and also under the scrutiny of Scripture. I do not discount others experiences.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Proof? No, I don't think that's possible either way. I'd be interested to see any evidence at all. It's true that absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence, but it is if the evidence ought to be there and it's not. I've seen no evidence or argument in support of the claim that the Abrahamic god at the core of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam exists that doesn't equally apply to any of the thousands of other deities humanity has invented, or doesn't admit of more prosaic explanations.

 

[cj44]

Am I looking for proof that God exists? No. See I always figured it was the message that was the most important part and the way I look at it if you're focused on looking for proof you're probably disregarding the message, or at least a good part of it, because your focus is elsewhere.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that God exists and He has a message, a philosophy, whatever you want to call it, for all of us. What's likely to be the most important thing, to embrace the message/philosophy even if we regard God as more of an abstract notion or that we focus solely on the existence of God even when it might be detrimental or run contrary to the message itself?

Life is about the journey, not the destination. The thing is, the way I understand Christian philosophy, if we do well with the journey then we'll arrive at the destination without incident. Anything outside of that is all about sidelining the journey, going off path such as it is for something that, had you just stayed on the path, you'd be experiencing anyway.

SLM, you're such a cute little scythe wielding penguin. Jesus came to tell us the message is the point. A point not to be missed. He said he was God and he is the way through the narrow gate. This should at least get our attention enough to ask what specifically is Jesus saying here. He also taught that God is not an abstract. He is a Person that cares deeply for his creation. It is not all fire and brimstone. God wants to know us. He wants us to pursue Him. He wants a relationship with us.

 

[Cliffy]

How does posting a parable from an ancient book prove anything? Statistic show that far more people do not believe the bible is any more than a book of parables than believe it is the word of god, so it is a very poor "proof" of anything but some good and bad moral lessons. I have witnessed many miracles in my life, some were performed by Christian faith healers, some by native shaman and some by Hindu Yogis. Yes, grasshopper, there is a higher power. It does not change with what you call it or visualize it to be. It cannot be contained in a book or even your imagination. It just is. It is what It is and nothing that you believe or think you know about It changes It. It is universal and is known to all people regardless of faith, religion, nationality or race. To believe otherwise is pure egotistical elitism, bigotry and self serving. Christians do not own god, they do not have exclusive rights to god and are not more special than any other group of humans on the planet. Get over it.

 

[Sal]

Ahh. I don't worry about staying on topic, Sal.

Thanks ♦

In regards to near death experiences, my comments will vary as do the accounts of the experiences. Some may argue that the near death experiences are delusions.

True, but they are mostly those who have not had them which is like trying to describe the experience of sweet without ever having had sugar.

Some will insist the experience "prooves" a particular doctrine or view.

Most I have read do not try to prove any particular doctrine or view. They merely say they have had an experience of god or after life.

My best response is I really have no idea.

To me a logical non-judgemental conclusion

Unusual unexplainable (according to current science) things have happened to me - not a near death experience, but other things. I am a person that tends to like proofs. Funny, I know.
So, I put those unexplained things that occurred in my life under the scrutiny of current science and also under the scrutiny of Scripture. I do not discount others experiences.

Fair enough.

For me NDE reinforce my belief in a higher power. To me, that is just experiences from others that verify my belief. I do not need proof in the earthly sense and do not seek it.

 

[cj44]

Proof? No, I don't think that's possible either way. I'd be interested to see any evidence at all. It's true that absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence, but it is if the evidence ought to be there and it's not. I've seen no evidence or argument in support of the claim that the Abrahamic god at the core of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam exists that doesn't equally apply to any of the thousands of other deities humanity has invented, or doesn't admit of more prosaic explanations.

All should pay attention to what Dexter is saying here. It is true in that we have no scientific evidence that God exists. God says you will not know me by proving my existence. Let's say if we got out the bunsen burners, Van De Graaf generators (I think Beavs could probably give us some evidence with this number), petri dishes, and erlenmeyer Flasks - and we managed to proove without a doubt that there is in fact a God. Many would still not believe. Read again what Luke 16:31 says.

 

[SLM]

SLM, you're such a cute little scythe wielding penguin.

Thank you. I'm taller in real life though.

Jesus came to tell us the message is the point. A point not to be missed. He said he was God and he is the way through the narrow gate. This should at least get our attention enough to ask what specifically is Jesus saying here. He also taught that God is not an abstract. He is a Person that cares deeply for his creation. It is not all fire and brimstone. God wants to know us. He wants us to pursue Him. He wants a relationship with us.

Ah, but asking what specifically Jesus is saying here brings it into the realm of philosophical debate by man(kind), which leads to individual interpretation by man(kind). Which in turn more or less means there is no right or wrong, just right or wrong for us as individuals. So what is right and meaningful for you may not be what is right and meaningful for me and vice versa, and in the end, who are we to judge that of each other anyway?

 

[cj44]

How does posting a parable from an ancient book prove anything? Statistic show that far more people do not believe the bible is any more than a book of parables than believe it is the word of god, so it is a very poor "proof" of anything but some good and bad moral lessons. I have witnessed many miracles in my life, some were performed by Christian faith healers, some by native shaman and some by Hindu Yogis. Yes, grasshopper, there is a higher power. It does not change with what you call it or visualize it to be. It cannot be contained in a book or even your imagination. It just is. It is what It is and nothing that you believe or think you know about It changes It. It is universal and is known to all people regardless of faith, religion, nationality or race. To believe otherwise is pure egotistical elitism, bigotry and self serving. Christians do not own god, they do not have exclusive rights to god and are not more special than any other group of humans on the planet. Get over it.

Cliffy, I didn't think you would be awake this early. Your comments will get us into a, "if there is a God, then who is he debate?". So, instead I will attempt to summarize your thoughts - God's creation knows he exists. Is that an accurate summary?

 

[DaSleeper]

 

[Cliffy]

Cliffy, I didn't think you would be awake this early. Your comments will get us into a, "if there is a God, then who is he debate?". So, instead I will attempt to summarize your thoughts - God's creation knows he exists. Is that an accurate summary?

Not really. Basically, it doesn't matter what you believe. Every religion and spiritual path will lead you home, eventually. Every religion has its book or books and you decided the bible is your guide. That does not make the bible any more important than any other book (except in your eyes). It doesn't mean you know the truth any more than anybody else. Trying to prove your book is better by quoting your book is ludicrous. It is a fallacy that only makes sense to you and nobody else.

 

[cj44]

Thank you. I'm taller in real life though.

Ah, but asking what specifically Jesus is saying here brings it into the realm of philosophical debate by man(kind), which leads to individual interpretation by man(kind). Which in turn more or less means there is no right or wrong, just right or wrong for us as individuals. So what is right and meaningful for you may not be what is right and meaningful for me and vice versa, and in the end, who are we to judge that of each other anyway?

If one reads the Bible in context, it doesn't allow for wildly various interpretations. I know i will undoubtedly get plastered by that statement, but it is true. When you read Treasure Island or Jeckyl & Hyde are there various interpretations for plot, setting, character, foreshadowing, conflict, resolution, etc, etc. No, you read the book and everyone agrees what the book was about. If not, you would get an F on the essay you had to write.

Not really. Basically, it doesn't matter what you believe. Every religion and spiritual path will lead you home, eventually. Every religion has its book or books and you decided the bible is your guide. That does not make the bible any more important than any other book (except in your eyes). It doesn't mean you know the truth any more than anybody else. Trying to prove your book is better by quoting your book is ludicrous. It is a fallacy that only makes sense to you and nobody else.

Cliffy, I understand the universal opinion. It is not something I agree with, but as you say, who gives a rip what I think? In contrast to your opinion, I think the Bible is the WORD of God - For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

I might just send a drone over your house with a ham AND that ancient book as you call it. We'd have a good old time if we were neighbors, Cliffy. You would see me coming up the walk way and you would lock every door in your house. I'd scream through your window, "Brother! Do you know Jesus?????"

 

[Cliffy]

Cliffy, I understand the universal opinion. It is not something I agree with, but as you say, who gives a rip what I think? In contrast to your opinion, I think the Bible is the WORD of God - For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

I might just send a drone over your house with a ham AND that ancient book as you call it. We'd have a good old time if we were neighbors, Cliffy. You would see me coming up the walk way and you would lock every door in your house. I'd scream through your window, "Brother! Do you know Jesus?????"

I don't lock my house to anyone. My standard answer is "Yes, I know Jesus. He is a good friend of mine and he tells me he is pissed off at the self righteous." Just because you "think" the bible is the word of god does not make it so. It also doesn't make it more so than any other book. "We are the human eyes and ears of god having a human experience through us" and that includes everyone, however you judge them to be. This whole god shows favouritism stuff is just some people putting a human judgment on others. But if you prefer your exclusivity and special position with your god to accepting that the Creator loves all his creation equally, then knock yourself out. It reflects more on you than it does on the Creator.

 

[taxslave]

Are you looking for proof that God exists?


NO.

 

[Sal]

Are you looking for proof that God exists?


NO.

me neither

 

[cj44]

I don't lock my house to anyone. My standard answer is "Yes, I know Jesus. He is a good friend of mine and he tells me he is pissed off at the self righteous." Just because you "think" the bible is the word of god does not make it so. It also doesn't make it more so than any other book. "We are the human eyes and ears of god having a human experience through us" and that includes everyone, however you judge them to be. This whole god shows favouritism stuff is just some people putting a human judgment on others. But if you prefer your exclusivity and special position with your god to accepting that the Creator loves all his creation equally, then knock yourself out. It reflects more on you than it does on the Creator.

Cliffy, I think we agree. God does not show favouritism. I think our difference of opinion stems from our beliefs on "eternal judgment". Because I agree with the teachings of Christ, you consider me judgmental. Also, your comment seems to suggest that I would open my home to only Christians. Not the case, Cliffy. I usually lock out the Christians,