Does Scripture teach faith in Christ alone shall save? Or do we have to add something? Must we have faith in Chirst and then try to keep the commandments as a good showing of our faith? Let's not trip over the stumbling block. Justification comes through faith in Christ alone. Certainly the following sounds quite reasonable, "Faith in Christ does justify, but observance of the Commandments of God is necessary." Here we see Christ's work on the cross is trampled under foot. Be careful not to turn the Gospel of Christ upside down. No one shall be justified by the works of the Law. Faith Alone and nothing more.
Faith Alone or and something...
- Thread starter cj44
- Start date
Who is this
"What profit hath not that fable of Christ brought us!"
—Pope Leo X
adored a Christ who had raised the dead and healed the lame, halt, blind, paralytic, leprous and all afflicted, who had restored speech to the dumb, exorcized demons from the possessed, dispersed his enemies with a word or look, wrestled with his Satan adversary, overcome all temptation and performed the works of his heavenly Father to the victorious end. Egypt had long known a Jesus, Iusa, who had been born amid celestial portents of an immaculate parenthood, circumcised, baptized, tempted, glorified on the mount, persecuted, arrested, tried, condemned, crucified, buried, resurrected and elevated to heaven. Egypt had listened to the Sermon on the Mount and the Sayings of Iusa for ages. Egypt had known a Jesus who long antedated the Gospel Messiah and who presents to the student some one hundred and eighty items of identity, similarity and correspondence in word, deed and function with his later copy.
But Egypt’s Christ was not a living person. It would have been equally fatal to Christianity if he had been. But the fact of his non-historicity rises now out of the past that Christianity thought it had sealed in oblivion forever, to strike the death-knell of a false and spurious religion. The Gospels’ "life" of Jesus turns out to be nothing but the garbled and fragmentary copy of an Egyptian prototype who never lived, but was a purely typal dramatic figure, portraying the divinity in man. With this one revelation of lost truth the structure of historical Christianity topples to the ground. It must be replaced by a purely spiritual Christianity. In the splendid light of ancient Egypt Occidental religion can now find its way from Medieval darkness to sunlit truth. The Dark Ages can be brought to their dismal end at last.Who is this
I am not disputing whether good works should be done. That is another topic. The question at hand stictly concerns justification. How are we justified before God? Scripture answers by faith in Christ alone. We can add nothing. Notice in the verse you have listed here, Matthew 25:31-46, that the separation of goats and sheep takes place before any deeds are mentioned.
Darkbeaver,
I respectfully disagree. Everyone will have to answer for themselves if Jesus was a liar, lunatic or Lord. I'm going with Lord. Historical note: Pope Leo was an enemy of faith alone in Christ. Thus, the all the hubbub during the Reformation. He much preferred to hold consciences hostage until the next indulgence plate was passed. Aside from that, Satan began his infrastructure of deciet centuries prior to the coming of Christ. Don't get hoodwinked by his previous "look alike" stories.
Darkbeaver,
I respectfully disagree. Everyone will have to answer for themselves if Jesus was a liar, lunatic or Lord. I'm going with Lord. Historical note: Pope Leo was an enemy of faith alone in Christ. Thus, the all the hubbub during the Reformation. He much preferred to hold consciences hostage until the next indulgence plate was passed. Aside from that, Satan began his infrastructure of deciet centuries prior to the coming of Christ. Don't get hoodwinked by his previous "look alike" stories.
Justification by Faith Alone is the Gospel according to Luther.. who managed to leave out vast tracks of the Biblical canon to get there. .. James, Peter.. and the intent of all the Scriptures.. all of which stressed not only the importance.. but the primacy of doing good works to achieve salvation... faith is merely the vehicle.. not the praxis of the Faith.
Luther managed to produce a very diminished and impoverished church.. in his wake.
At to Horace.. there have been many attempts to characterise the 'Christ story' as a retread of other 'resurrection sagas'.. of ancient Eastern and Western religions. When that proved to be unconvincing the Christ deniers started to promote the 'historical Jesus' concept.. a gifted rabbi with no divine provenance.
The important thing to note is these deniers are absolutely obsessed with trying to undermine the Christian concept of Jesus. They can't leave it alone.. which only goes to show how compelling and all encompassing the Christ story is.. continually garnering converts and reverts.. despite the best efforts of the Devil and his minions to sew confusion and doubt.
Have it your own way... Truth always shines through.. its coded into our consciousness and conscience.
Luther managed to produce a very diminished and impoverished church.. in his wake.
At to Horace.. there have been many attempts to characterise the 'Christ story' as a retread of other 'resurrection sagas'.. of ancient Eastern and Western religions. When that proved to be unconvincing the Christ deniers started to promote the 'historical Jesus' concept.. a gifted rabbi with no divine provenance.
The important thing to note is these deniers are absolutely obsessed with trying to undermine the Christian concept of Jesus. They can't leave it alone.. which only goes to show how compelling and all encompassing the Christ story is.. continually garnering converts and reverts.. despite the best efforts of the Devil and his minions to sew confusion and doubt.
Have it your own way... Truth always shines through.. its coded into our consciousness and conscience.
Last edited:
Ahhh. I see that crafty serpent has not been fast asleep in his recliner these past 500 years. Rather, he has pulled that oldie but goodie out of the cesspool of deciet to lead the masses astray. Tell me what works shall I do to add to the crucifixion of Christ? Do tell me how I can trump what Jesus, very God, did in those dark hours of agony. Perhaps, I shall bring a whiteboard to the judgement, listing my good deeds for the Almighty to ponder. Let's see, I shall list some of my very best here. Donating money to various charities over the years, giving goods to the food pantry, taking time out of my day to talk with the lonely neighbor up the street, and also I try not to swear so much. And, this is a biggie I am sure as Jesus himself mentioned it. I visited the imprisoned. I might be in for a gold star for that one! Well, I see what you mean. Clearly, my works outshine my savior! Won't God be impressed with my list of good works! Coldstream! You throw Jesus under the bus. No good work will save us. Good works do not cancel our sin against God.
Should good works be done? YES! But they by no means justify us before God.
You don't have to 'trump' what Jesus did.. you just have to distribute his legacy... in mercy.. as God gives you the ability. And God.. imho.. couldn't care less if you 'justify' yourself or not.. whatever that means... without the imitation of Christ in the world.
Coldstream,
Bu justify, I mean what do you have to do or believe or other to have everlasting life with God? (In context of the Christian religion) Not sure what "imho" means. Perhaps, I misread what you have written. Do you believe Scripture teaches that in order to be "saved", one must do good works? Also, if agreeable, define what you believe it means to "believe in Christ". Also, do not think I imagine one can say, "Oh, yes. I believe in Jesus and that is all I need so I am free to run wild, rip out the neighbors geraniums, let air out of the jerk's tire next door, steal a candy bar and rob a bank...Thank You Jesus!" Clearly, this type of thought is foolishness and should be dismissed.
imho - in my humble opinion.
'Belief' is an assertion of Faith.. it does not cast out doubt.. it affirms.. in the Apostle's Creed.. the fundamental tenets of the Faith..
'Saved' is a word that plays a much larger part in the Protestant than Catholic faith. The latter is far more nuanced and qualified in its salvation protocols.. and holds that you will be held accountable for your willful actions in life (for better or worse).. subject to the Judgement AND the Divine Mercy of God.
'Belief' is an assertion of Faith.. it does not cast out doubt.. it affirms.. in the Apostle's Creed.. the fundamental tenets of the Faith..
'Saved' is a word that plays a much larger part in the Protestant than Catholic faith. The latter is far more nuanced and qualified in its salvation protocols.. and holds that you will be held accountable for your willful actions in life (for better or worse).. subject to the Judgement AND the Divine Mercy of God.
And you would say that without Christ (faith in Christ). no works can lead to salvation? I agree that Scripture most certainly exhorts us to good works - this based on our faith. Our "willful actions" have already been judged by God - and the verdict is "no one is righteous, all have gone astray". So, that is the judgement on mankind. I acknowledge our actions after faith will be judged, however, I know little on the subject and cannot contribute on this point. I was raised as a Catholic and understand part of the salvation protocol is working out our salvation in purgatory. I respectfully disagree as I cannot grasp that my putrid good works could add an ounce to my salvation. In faith, I desire to do good works, but do not believe those works will put me in heaven. Thumbs Up for the Apostle's Creed.
Most likely is that you and coldstream are both wrong. If you serious and earnest Christians can't agree among yourselves on something as basic as this, why should anyone take any of your claims seriously?
The one thing most Christians confuse is faith for belief. Belief is not faith at all. Belief is an intellectual process that has nothing to do with faith. Faith is not generated in the brain, it is felt in the heart or soul. The creative force/god/universe is not something that can be rationalized or understood. That is the realm of belief. Belief is just so much mental masturbation.
How does Scripture define faith as there seems to be certain requirements that come with being in the Church and not experiencing Great Tribulation as mentioned in the letter to the 1st church in Re:2. Since one of those conditions in all the letters is a description of any Gentile from about 33AD there are conditions attached to the verses below. The last two references are the beginning of a list, the list from Peter is specificly mentioning the fire that will destroy Satan's Babylon so that is a meant as a guide for the period of the two woes (Re:8) that has to happen before the return on the day the 7th trump sounds. That is a combined period of time of 3 1/2 years and the the 3rd woe is Christ cleansing the world on all unrepented people in a matter of 3 hours. The number of the unrepented and the number of the (righteous) Church is given in that last few verses of Zec:13 and that passage carries over to all of Zec:14.
Lu:6:46:
And why call ye me,
Lord,
Lord,
and do not the things which I say?
Ro:13:5:
Wherefore ye must needs be subject,
not only for wrath,
but also for conscience sake.
1Pe:4:12:
Beloved,
think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you,
as though some strange thing happened unto you:
Adding something to a document that is already perfect will result in what benefit? Should we not first choke that back and try to understand what is already there. God actually says He has to warn people about what will happen before it happens, obviously that can go back only so far and the future is covered as far as eternity in the new earth so all major parts in between should have some sort of reference. Understand what is meant for our generation may show that things mentioned by Moses was meant specifically for us when 'common knowledge'. Today's generation would be able to relate to just how long ago it was that the earth was a place where you could find a shadow cast by this specific sun. We would say that is 4BYA and to get the Bible to agree with that you would need a starting date which is given as 4005BC and each creation day would then be 10 x longer than that starting point. Powers of 10 being included on the 1st page of a very long book wouold say what about the rest of it if we used today's knowledge and applied it to the whole book in relation to if it could be the work of just one author and about 40 Scribes. For Ge: that would be why time was set only at the end of the 4th day, we know that at 'some point' the orbit was faster or the length of a day and the number of days in a year was different and the moon's 30 day trip was also different. How many other ancient sources touch on that aspect of our (true) past. In the 'add dept' why would that be taken off the table and some theme about 6 24hr periods be the one that is associated with God.
Zec:13:7:
Awake,
O sword,
against my shepherd,
and against the man that is my fellow,
saith the LORD of hosts:
smite the shepherd,
and the sheep shall be scattered:
and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
Zec:13:8:
And it shall come to pass,
that in all the land,
saith the LORD,
two parts therein shall be cut off and die;
but the third shall be left therein.
Zec:13:9:
And I will bring the third part through the fire,
and will refine them as silver is refined,
and will try them as gold is tried:
they shall call on my name,
and I will hear them:
I will say,
It is my people:
and they shall say,
The LORD is my God.
They would be the ones in Re:20:4 that resisted the mark and in the NT they are the ones gathered alive that are given a glorified body after all the dead have been resurrected first. The list includes those (beheaded) for the word of God. In that list is the 12 tribes that are not the 144,000 that are alive to witness the resurrection of the rest of the whole House of Israel as in Eze:37
That will get you into the list in Re:20:4 but the ratio of who will live and who will die on that day cannot be altered and the list is verified in Eze:39 that all but them are in the resurrected list. The list has a finate number of people and the full list would be a long post so lets just say there is a certain number alive on the evening of the first day of the 1,000 years and the enter that day being quite niave about God. They remain a static population throughout that period because nobody is married, at the end of that period they are wise enough to be teachers about god as they have all experienced Zec:14 1,000 times by the time the GWT begins. At that event they are greeted by God as already being as perfected as you can get in 1,000 years, they are not liars basically. They enter New Jerusalem and when New Jerusalem eventually lands on the New Earth they stay inside the city for eternity. The rest of mankind exits the city and bulids house as in Isaiah 65 and it is that group of people that supply the children for eternity. The ones inside the city see the ones outside as being their flock and they are the Priests and they are the Kings and the ones outside have Nations and citizens that are under the rule of the ones in the City.
No, the one in in Hebrew 12 are the ones called 'the rest' in Re:20 and they are the ones from hell and death that appear before God on Judgment Day. The ones that are resurrected from the sea would be the giants born to women and died in the flood. They also enter the New Earth as a sinless person, without any prior justification in terms of respecting God.
Jas:1:26:
If any man among you seem to be religious,
and bridleth not his tongue,
but deceiveth his own heart,
this man's religion is vain.
Jas:1:27:
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this,
To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction,
and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
If it is already arrived in an upside down condition then is has to be set upright. Who would be exempt from being a member of the 7 churches if this one verse deined who revelation was meant fot and a relationship with God is establishes as soon as a person id aware that God is a word and a concept?
Re:1:7:
Behold,
he cometh with clouds;
and every eye shall see him,
and they also which pierced him:
and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
Even so,
Amen.
Why would that not include all material that you don't fully grasp after the first exposure to it?
Excellent point indeed Dexter! In fact, no one should take anyone's claim. Rather, rely on Scripture alone. Also, God isn't so legalistic that he will throw one entire denomination into hell and save another. We shall all come to find that there will be some Catholics, Baptists, Jehovah Witness, Lutherans, etc. in heaven. As well we will find the same mix in hell. Judge not the heart of any person. That is God's job.
Perhaps all the false doctrines are just ther to make sure all possibilities are explored before any final decisions are 'set in concrete'. There was a single acceptance in the OT beginning with the exodus and that didn't stop it from becoming corrupt enough the God had Neb come in.
It boils down to the reader and the various passages when convincing is the issue,
MHZ,
I do not know the details of the Second Coming of Christ. All I know is that he will return. So, I cannot really comment on what you have written here except to say that faith within Biblical context all points to Christ. Faith in his work, not ours.
I do not know the details of the Second Coming of Christ. All I know is that he will return. So, I cannot really comment on what you have written here except to say that faith within Biblical context all points to Christ. Faith in his work, not ours.
Isn't it at that point you should be supplying some actual verse to avoid doing just what you claim should not be done, preaching without showing what authority allows your 'doctrine' to be correct?
Running something past Dex is a very good way to see if you have overlooked some aspect, the bad news is the holes are something that other men promote rather than it being something he is basing on a combination of Scriptures..
Conversion is God's job alone in that there is a variable timeline that He is following and salvation does eventually include everybody but the sequences is over a long period of time.
At that point I should stop and show what verses I have in the back of my mind, even then I better expect to be challenged so I batter have at least 3 references that say the same basic thing being promoted. Even with that it would be short of all the material and all the interconnects that would fully explain why that concept makes it the one worth the most consideration.
The good news is prophecy about the bruise to the head is limited in bulk, the bad news is it will take more than 3 minutes to find it all let alone put it all into one 'picture', more like 3 weeks but then you never need any updates, ever.