Have you ever forgiven someone? If so, who needs God to forgive a second time?

[French Patriot]

Have you ever forgivensomeone? If so, who needs God to forgive a second time?

It is to the one sinnedagainst to have the first right of forgiving when forgiving is possible. Thatwould be most sins and crimes save murder.

I have had the pleasure toforgive on a few occasions. I will assume here that you have also forgivensomeone at some point in your life. I have had that pleasure after the pain andhope you have as well. I have stepped up to ask for forgiveness as well aftersinning against someone and am thankful that people can and do forgive. Thisbenefit I also hope you have enjoyed.

Our consciousness and ego arewhat we use to judge what should be forgiven. If we lose that ability to judgeor if it is usurped, damage is done to our consciousness and ego. It wouldnegate intelligent use of our freedom of choice. It would negate our free willand deny us closure.

The Government has taken ourfreedom of the body from us with various restrictions. Everything from what weconsume to our right to die with dignity. God has taken our freedom of choiceafter death from us with his judgement. Jesus has taken our freedom to face ouraccuser from us by saying--- only through me --- as our only judge.

These usurping of your freewill to forgive means that you could never get closure from offence and hurt.

That would make Jesus as bigof a disgrace as his father in ignoring our free willed choices. People judgeconstantly. We cannot help but to do so. To have our judgements usurped orignored shows a flaw in the justice system you follow, be it secular orreligious.

The God of the Jews whoevolved to be the Christian God had different view of forgiveness than Jesushad even though Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi. Jesus as God would be from theChristian perspective. Not the Jewish one that has the majority of Jews asnever accepting Jesus as their messiah. The claims to judging and Jesus’status, or not, --- as a messiah--- needs not be discussed in this O P.

“Jewish belief states thatG-d doesn't forgive our sins against others until we ask and receiveforgiveness directly from the person we wronged.”

“In Judaism, the acts ofrepentance and forgiveness are inextricably linked, and we must never let ouranger toward others cause us to lose sight of self-reflection and cleansing.”

http://www.thepowerofforgiveness.com/pdf/A_Jewish_Perspective_on_Forgiveness.pdf

Did Christianity and theirversion of the Jewish God usurp your power and benefits of forgiving?

Does that negate your freewill, and your right to forgive?

Regards
DL

 

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

I'm of Irish descent, even when we get Alzheimers we remember the grudges.

 

[Sal]

Have you ever forgivensomeone? If so, who needs God to forgive a second time?

No one, since it says what is done here on earth, is done in heaven too.

It is to the one sinnedagainst to have the first right of forgiving when forgiving is possible. Thatwould be most sins and crimes save murder.

Why not murder? There are sins equal to or worse than murder.

Our consciousness and ego arewhat we use to judge what should be forgiven. If we lose that ability to judgeor if it is usurped, damage is done to our consciousness and ego. It wouldnegate intelligent use of our freedom of choice. It would negate our free willand deny us closure.

no one can remove another's ability to forgive...as you have said, it is a choice...WE choose.

Jesus has taken our freedom to face ouraccuser from us by saying--- only through me --- as our only judge.

Only if one chooses to believe that only through him do you live on.

These usurping of your freewill to forgive means that you could never get closure from offence and hurt.

people choose to forgive or forgo forgiving... they enslave themselves...no one can do that..not god or animal or man

That would make Jesus as bigof a disgrace as his father in ignoring our free willed choices. People judgeconstantly. We cannot help but to do so. To have our judgements usurped orignored shows a flaw in the justice system you follow, be it secular orreligious.

It does not show any flaw in god, only a flaw in the man that allows it to happen.

“Jewish belief states thatG-d doesn't forgive our sins against others until we ask and receiveforgiveness directly from the person we wronged.”

“In Judaism, the acts ofrepentance and forgiveness are inextricably linked, and we must never let ouranger toward others cause us to lose sight of self-reflection and cleansing.”

okay, so that is about healing, that is about freeing oneself after one has wronged another or done wrong. One can not move forward and grow unless one can acknowledge when one has done wrong and wish to change ( e sorry, see a better way)

Did Christianity and theirversion of the Jewish God usurp your power and benefits of forgiving?

No

Does that negate your freewill, and your right to forgive?

No

 

[Goober]

Trolling again I see in the religion thread.

 

[French Patriot]

I'm of Irish descent, even when we get Alzheimers we remember the grudges.

Perhaps the grudges are what causes the Alzheimers.
The only grudge I hold is against this Scotsman for taking my prize.

The drunk Scotsman (lyrics) - YouTube

Regards
DL

No one, since it says what is done here on earth, is done in
heaven too.

That would mean that evil also happens in heaven then. Right?

Why not murder? There are sins equal to or worse than murder.

Perhaps so but if the victim is dead, he cannot forgive.

no one can remove another's ability to forgive...as you have said, it is a
choice...WE choose.

True but from the believers POV, even if you have forgiven him, his religion says that he also needs God's forgiveness to not be punished so God ignores the fact that you have forgiven the sin and makes your forgiveness redundant.

Only if one
chooses to believe that only through him do you live on.

No argument.

people choose to
forgive or forgo forgiving... they enslave themselves...no one can do that..not god or
animal or man

No argument.

It does not show any flaw in god, only a flaw in the man that allows it to
happen.

Allow is a strange word for us to use when speaking of what we might allow God to do.
But if it is between non-believers then ignore God might be a better word.

okay, so that is about healing,
that is about freeing oneself after one has
wronged another or done wrong. One can not move forward and grow unless one can
acknowledge when one has done wrong and wish to change ( e sorry, see a better
way)

Exactly. Benefits go both ways.

No





No

Then I take it that you are not a believer. I am not an atheist but we seem to be on the same page here.

Regards
DL

 

[L Gilbert]

Have you ever forgivensomeone? If so, who needs God to forgive a second time?

Did Christianity and theirversion of the Jewish God usurp your power and benefits of forgiving?

Does that negate your freewill, and your right to forgive?

Regards

Yep.
Some people seem to need a god or something. That's up to them.
There's no such thing as free will; people can only do what they do. Sometimes I forgive, sometimes not: each circumstance is different.

Didn't bother reading the ranting part.

 

[Sal]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sal

Quote:

No one, since it says what is done here on earth, is done in
heaven too.
​

That would mean that evil also happens in heaven then. Right?

No, actually what I was referring to was from Matthew : 16:19
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." As for evil happening in heaven that is a separate issue... I believe that evil is oppositional to good therefore I do not believe there is evil in heaven, no.

Why not murder? There are sins equal to or worse than murder.
Perhaps so but if the victim is dead, he cannot forgive.

Okay, fair enough.

no one can remove another's ability to forgive...as you have said, it is a
choice...WE choose.
​

True but from the believers POV, even if you have forgiven him, his religion says that he also needs God's forgiveness to not be punished so God ignores the fact that you have forgiven the sin and makes your forgiveness redundant.​

No, that is why I used the Mathew quote.
​

okay, so that is about healing,
that is about freeing oneself after one has
wronged another or done wrong. One can not move forward and grow unless one can
acknowledge when one has done wrong and wish to change ( e sorry, see a better
way)
​

Exactly. Benefits go both ways.

Yes, what flows out from us, returns to us in kind.
​

No





No


​

Then I take it that you are not a believer. I am not an atheist but we seem to be on the same page here.

Yes I am a believer in god/higher power, but I am more of the mind set that we are still bound to him here on earth. That he doesn't care through what religion or belief system that we connect with him. He is pure love, and goodness and our job here on earth is to evolve, mentally and spiritually. For some that may mean following the rules of a church or belief structure. For others it will involve a different path. None can judge another for they are only a mirror for us.
​

 

[Cliffy]

Yes I am a believer in god/higher power, but I am more of the mind set that we are still bound to him here on earth. That he doesn't care through what religion or belief system that we connect with him. He is pure love, and goodness and our job here on earth is to evolve, mentally and spiritually. For some that may mean following the rules of a church or belief structure. For others it will involve a different path. None can judge another for they are only a mirror for us.​

​

On this we agree completely.

 

[French Patriot]

Yep.
Some people seem to need a god or something. That's up to them.
There's no such thing as free will; people can only do what they do. Sometimes I forgive, sometimes not: each circumstance is different.
.

Do you think it mentally healthy to hold grudges and pain in our hearts and minds for a long time?
Would closure as quickly as possible on such not be better?

Regards
DL

 

[L Gilbert]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sal

No, actually what I was referring to was from Matthew : 16:19
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." As for evil happening in heaven that is a separate issue... I believe that evil is oppositional to good therefore I do not believe there is evil in heaven, no.​

heheh As a mechanic, I've "loosed" enough nuts n bolts in my lifetime to sink the USS Enterprise or the Nimitz. Does that mean "heaven" is fulla nuts? ​

 

[Spade]

God is the espression of our humanity to each other. Are other gods necessary?

 

[Sal]

heheh As a mechanic, I've "loosed" enough nuts n bolts in my lifetime to sink the USS Enterprise or the Nimitz. Does that mean "heaven" is fulla nuts?

Well if it's full of dead humans I would say it is going to be "chock fulla nuts" lol

God is the espression of our humanity to each other. Are other gods necessary?

For some, I think yes.

 

[French Patriot]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sal

No, actually what I was referring to was from Matthew : 16:19
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." As for evil happening in heaven that is a separate issue... I believe that evil is oppositional to good therefore I do not believe there is evil in heaven, no.


Okay, fair enough.

No, that is why I used the Mathew quote.
​

Yes, what flows out from us, returns to us in kind.
​

Yes I am a believer in god/higher power, but I am more of the mind set that we are still bound to him here on earth. That he doesn't care through what religion or belief system that we connect with him. He is pure love, and goodness and our job here on earth is to evolve, mentally and spiritually. For some that may mean following the rules of a church or belief structure. For others it will involve a different path. None can judge another for they are only a mirror for us.
​

If evil is not allowed in heaven or cannot exist there, how is it that Satan was there for a long enough time to convert 1/3 of the angels?

If God is pure love then how could he have created all things including evil?
Unless you think he has a co-creator but scriptures definitely say that he created evil and did it for his pleasure.
In the beginning there was only God and all things must have emanated from him.

If you think God is just unthinking pure love, and goodness, then who created evil?

Regards
DL

 

[Spade]

Ach, the "Tyger. tyger, burning bright" argument. Our myths are wanting...

 

[French Patriot]

[/INDENT][/INDENT]On this we agree completely.

I gave her a question just above. Care to give an answer to it as well?

She mentioned following a Church. What if the church is one she does not think acts Jesus like?
Should she continue to follow the church or should she follow her heart. Jesus seemed to indicate that the heart was whaere his laws where written.

I give this clip as an example. Please do not take us into the topic shown. It could be any topic. I just use this clip because I like the look she give her Bishop.

Catholics split over church's campaign against same-sex marriage - CNN.com

Regards
DL

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Have you ever forgivensomeone? If so, who needs God to forgive a second time?

I think you misunderstand the theological meaning of the terminology you're using. A sin in this context is the transgression of the divine will or any rule or law held to embody or express some part of it, hence god is the ONLY being who can forgive it. Other people forgiving you your sins might smooth the path in this life, but in the larger scheme of most monotheistic religious traditions it doesn't count for much.

 

[French Patriot]

God is the espression of our humanity to each other. Are other gods necessary?

Rather Gnostic and Jewish that view.
Jesus would agree as that is what he preached but that message is not what the church gives. No money in having people think they do not need saving from a super God.

Your view basically matches the more intelligent Jewish view.

John 10:34
Jesus answered them, Is itnot written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Regards
DL

 

[Sal]

If evil is not allowed in heaven or cannot exist there, how is it that Satan was there for a long enough time to convert 1/3 of the angels?

I don't take the bible literally. I do not believe in Satan as an incarnate being, at least at this point I don't think so anyway. My beliefs are something which evolve as I go according to my experience. I examine, accept, discard, re-examine.

If God is pure love then how could he have created all things including evil?

I'm not sure that he did.

Unless you think he has a co-creator but scriptures definitely say that he created evil and did it for his pleasure.
In the beginning there was only God and all things must have emanated from him.

It's the need to explain, that would not be my explanation nor my understanding.

If you think God is just unthinking pure love, and goodness, then who created evil?

I would say there likely was no evil at the beginning but things evolve... my current understanding of evil is that it is merely an absence of God, an absence of light...we however have consciousness and we act...thus we may perform evil deeds...

 

[Spade]

Note to DS
“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
- now generalize

 

[L Gilbert]

"my current understanding of evil is that it is merely an absence of God"

Um, I guess all us atheists are evil then.