Gun Control is Completely Useless.


AndyF
#61
The scariest of all this is we have clerks making laws where the existance of ambiguity is downright dangerous, some would argue more dangerous than even owning the weapon. This danger is more prominent for the antique dealer who wishes to deal with antigue guns. Here are some qirks that show the assenine examples of laws that conflict and are clearly written by people who don't know what they are doing.:

Re: Dave Tomlinson's Quotes in Blue at http://www.nfa.ca/legal-issues/antique-firearms.html

84. (1)... "restricted firearm" means (a) a handgun that is not a prohibited firearm...

Therefore, any handgun that is an "antique firearm" is also a "restricted firearm" unless it is both an "antique firearm" and a "prohibited firearm".

CC s. 84(1) "prohibited firearm" says, in part:

84. (1) "prohibited firearm" means (a) a handgun that
(i) has a barrel equal to or less than 105mm [4.14"] in length, or
(ii) is designed or adapted to discharge a 25 or 32 calibre cartridge...

Therefore, any handgun that is an "antique firearm" is also a "prohibited firearm" if it has a barrel less than 105mm/4.14" long, regardless of whether it is a muzzle-loading handgun or a cartridge-firing handgun, and regardless of calibre. Also, any handgun that is an "antique firearm" is also a "prohibited firearm" if it is "designed or adapted" to use "a 25 or 32 calibre cartridge".

So which firearm is an "antique firearm" today?

What happens when a guy concludes this paradox wrong and carries an ellegal antique weapon. Is the cop going to be lenient and understand it. Is the age old excuse "I didn't know" going to work. See why this is dangerous stuff and calls for very careful analysys before implementing by people who really know what they are talking about.? Makes you think what is happening now and how many people have fell victim to these traps so far.

---------------------------------------------------

For another point more relevant to me as a prospector and wish to carry a weapon for predator protection, is the word intent, and I site the paragraph.. I don't really care what I carry as long as the barrel isn't rusted out and it carries some punch and I don't need to load the ball in the muzzle.

84. (2) Notwithstanding the definition "firearm" in susection (1), for the purposes of the definitions "prohibited weapon" and "restricted weapon" in that subsection and for the purposes of section 93, subsections 97(1) and (3), and sections 102, 104, 105 and 116, the following weapons shall be deemed not to be firearms:

(a) an antique firearm unless
(i) but for this subsection, it would be a restricted weapon, and
(ii) the person in possession thereof intends to discharge it...

I carry the weapon in hopes I never INTEND to use it. If I intend to use it , it is conditional and totally dependant on the rampaging bear. I may carry it for 20 years and never get to use it. Is intent an overall intent, or a intent at point of use, and since I decided to use it, then I'm intending to?.

Just goes to show you that the wording doesn't cover all aspects of the use of arms.

Tom outlines more quirks on his site. Check out the hair pulling problems that the bureaucrats missed out on in regards to Pre/Post 1898 date of MFG, and component stampings. But my main point is that stuff that should be clear and isn't could cause alot of misery.

AndyF
 
#juan
No Party Affiliation
#62
Quote: Originally Posted by Colpy View Post

Absolutely correct, Juan, except for one very important detail.

There are hundguns built for single-shot free pistol competitions.

There are handguns built for long-range shilouette shooting.

There are handguns built specifically for bullseye shooting, in both centre-fire and rimfire disciplines.

There are handguns built for Olympic style rapid fire bullseye, in both centre-fire and rimfire disciplines.

There are handguns built as campers' companions.

There are handguns built for the various cowboy competitions.

There are "race guns" built for the unlimited class in IPSC competitions.

AND there are very definitely handguns built specifically for hunting, including most of the .44 Magnums you mention. There are, BTW, a number of new guns that are vastly more powerful than the old .44 Mag. Clint Eastwood is SOOO passe.

And there are handguns made for self-defense.

The vast majority of handgun types built today are NOT intended for killing people.

Yeah but,

All these guns you mention are specializations of guns and calibers that were not designed specifically for target shooting. And I thought only police and Brink's guards could use handguns for self defence. I have no trouble with our Olympic team having handguns as long as they bring back a medal..or two.

My point was, that most people,read,"good guys" don't need a hand gun.
 
hermanntrude
#63
i surely dont need a handgun or any other kind.

as far as i see it guns kill people. people shouldn't kill people, so people shouldn't have guns.

I know there are exceptions but you and I are (probably) not one. except colpy, who seems to need one for his job.
 
#juan
No Party Affiliation
#64
Colpy is funny that way. He always wants to shoot someone before they shoot him... Not very sporting...........
 
hermanntrude
#65
no. you should always let them shoot you first

I always imagine colpy as yosemite sam now.
 
L Gilbert
No Party Affiliation
#66
Quote: Originally Posted by #juan View Post

Yeah but,

All these guns you mention are specializations of guns and calibers that were not designed specifically for target shooting.

My point was, that most people,read,"good guys" don't need a hand gun.

Most people don't need 2 or 3 vehicles. A lot of people don't need one.
Most target guns are at least modified specifically for target. Perhaps , Juan, you should learn a little bit about guns and target shooting.
 
L Gilbert
No Party Affiliation
#67
At any rate, someone who says people shouldn't have guns is not very well informed. It's different in Britland where you don't have grizzlies taking your barn apart to get at a pig, cougars massacring chickens in your coop, etc. It's the idiots in cities that are shooting people (and mostly criminals at that), not we bush-apes.
Criminals smuggle their autofiring weapons into Canada and if you think registration and all that crap does anything to dissuade those people, you're deluded. So, essentially, those idiotic rules and regs simply cost taxpayers tons of money and turn quite a few honest people into criminals.

Like I said, keep the guns from the criminals and idiots, and there would be little problem. And if they had enforced the original gun laws in the first place, there wouldn't be this hassle either. It isn't the people that is causing the vast majority of the problems, it's criminals and gov'ts. (I don't think there's much difference between the two).
 
AndyF
#68
Quote: Originally Posted by Colpy View Post

Why ban handguns?

The number of murders done with registered handguns is so tiny as to be insignificant.
Seems to be you show a dangerous affinity for government control.
There is far too much law in this nation.

Colpy:

3 excellent facts. I note the second as well.

Wanna get butter knives banned too? just tell Canadians that someone got stabbed to death with one. He won't care to question statistics. Won't care a hoot that it occured 10 years ago and the odds are a billion to 1, but the butter knife lobby group will get what they want because they have an underlying agenda, and that is to sell there own new replacement for it.

That's what's happening these days. Governments don't search for underlying motives, and they want to know how it helps their party's election platform. Motives are rarely what is stated. Valid argument or not, the cops have an interest in having a totally defenseless population, and it looks like it's going that way. And of course we can count on having a cop right there when that terrorist takes your kid hostage and you don't own a gun.

AndyF
 
MikeyDB
+1
#69

I remember Colpy evidencing some surprise at the fact that I compete in IPSC sanctioned competitions in both Canada and the United States, because I suppose I’ve been such a millstone around the necks of people who have a different ‘take’ on nation/state-sanctioned violent aggression than I do. Carnage war mayhem and self-destruction that’s taking place as we chat, and has taken place all around this lovely blue marble swimming in the inky blackness of the universe since our primitive early cells formed clusters in the hood and we slipped our tether to the ooze of a hostile planet and built the first MacDonald’s….

I qualified for a Black Badge back many years ago but had already been shooting in a lot of different places around the world. The Black Badge requires a higher level of demonstrated competency with the various firearms used in international competition than for instance the “hunter-safety” and safe-handling instruction as provided through gun clubs, the Ontario Handgun Association, The Shooting Federation of Canada…etc. etc…

“IPSC (pronounced "ip-sick") was created as an organization in 1976 at
Columbia, Missouri, by representatives from nine nations where the sport
of "combat" shooting was becoming popular. This became known as the
Columbia Conference. The term "practical" went into the name instead of
"combat" in deference to public image and Jeff Cooper who was elected the
first President. Jeff's writings and philosophy of "practical
pistolcraft" were highly regarded and earned him the title of father of
the sport.”

The IPSC motto is “Diligentia Vis Celeritas” which means essentially speed with accuracy.

I own the guns I own because it takes a great deal of training to use a handgun effectively, despite what you might have seen on television or at the movies….

I shot bulls-eye first, which offers a stationary target that one attempts to put as many (you only shoot ten rounds in competition) holes through the centre ring as you can from twenty five meters away… yawn……

As a range officer at the local university club I was amused by students who after receiving a safe-handling instruction from a fully qualified RO (Range Officer) and were deemed to have demonstrated safe handling techniques were given the opportunity of firing ten rounds using either a club revolver or semi-automatic pistol at the target twenty-five meters downrange. (Twenty-Two .22 calibre…although we had a club .38 we encouraged beginners to start with the milder recoil twenty-two)

For the vast majority of “first-timers” one or two holes on the page (roughly 30”X30”) was usual and often you’d hear… “I shot that paper I KNOW I HIT IT!”… “THERE MUST BE SOMETHING WRONG WITH THE GUN I USED…”

Myself or another RO would then take the pistol used by the neophyte to the firing line and shoot a 90 or better score…and let the youngsters know that “Nope…nuthin wrong with that pistol….”

Smug and yes perhaps a bit cocky…we seldom let on that we’ve fired thousands upon thousands of rounds and when we first started we probably weren’t any better than they…but hey….

IPSC is an “action sport”, where competitors face “problems” or “scenarios” which represent the kinds of situations people who are licensed professionals who use firearms in their daily lives as part of their job might face. Targets occluded by obstacles, moving targets etc,. In a typical Level II match, you will be faced with an obstacle course with perhaps particular difficulties (like crawling through a culvert or climbing over a fence or a “shoot-target” in a whole swarm of “no-shoots”…) which will require that you engage often multiple targets with great accuracy as fast as you can.

I have been fortunate enough to own many powerboats as well over the years and no I didn’t “need” to own them either, I used them for recreation just like I use my firearms. I don’t hunt and have no interest in murdering ducks or deer but can understand when I sit down to a venison steak or duck l’orange that competency with a firearm can and sometimes has too put dinner on the table.

Misuse of firearms is a plague on us all. That said, the drunk driver, the mentally ill and the depressed members of our society take lives every day at the wheel of their cars boats and trucks, just as do people who misjudge their capability behind the wheel and don’t adjust their driving habits to meet road and traffic conditions. Like Colpy says, that car didn’t start itself up and hit that child walking across the intersection, someone for some reason became involved in a terrible tragedy and our efforts would meet with better success in preventing this kind of tragedy through education, training and understanding instead of hysteria and quick.. but often misinformed conclusion….

Criminals will use whatever means and form of violence they can without regard for the well-being of anyone, often including themselves’!

Martial arts are extensions of the skills methodology and techniques employed by professional warriors, and that’s as “close” to anything even vaguely reminiscent of “criminal” as one gets in the practice of firearms use in recreational endeavours. An association…magnified by a cultivated enthusiasm for gratuitous violence through cinema and television into a fear that often gets beaten into a lather and smeared across the TV and newspaper with the net effect of providing yet another target for unfounded prejudice.

I’m six foot tall and weigh 220lbs, if I or anyone of similar size (physically healthy and mobile) swung a golf-club at your head….or a machete or a baseball bat….chances are you’d suffer terminal injury. And I and anyone who would behave this way is a criminal and would justly feel the full weight of our societies law enforcement….

I’m qualified as a Marksman by the Shooting Federation of Canada in both pistol and rifle disciplines. I’ve completed every instructional course available (not Colpy’s…though…

In both civilian and military training.

Yes I’m presenting a biased perspective and yes I’m as disappointed in the effectiveness (poor plan poorly executed) of strategies employed by government to prevent firearms tragedies, but the point that seems to be missed is that all the training and expertise derived through hours and days and months of practice and competition make me the safest “gun-owner” you’ll likely ever meet!

It’s the criminal who is to be feared, not the gun and not the legitimate qualified sport shooter. We will inevitably hear all the bad things that happen involving firearms because you can be managed and manipulated through fear….

A fear born of ignorance of an aggrandized calamity that exists not because guns exist but because there are so many psychological, political and criminal circumstances as well as no reliable (absolute) test to determine who is emotionally or psychologically stable enough to be given responsibility for the care and control of a potentially dangerous instrument.

Just like cars and planes, boats, golf-clubs, javelins, bowling balls, hockey sticks and everything else that anyone could use to harm their neighbour…










 
gopher
No Party Affiliation
+1
#70
Quote: Originally Posted by Colpy

Excuse me?

That must have been quite some time ago.

The first semi-auto hunting rifles were introduced by Remington in 1903.

The Colt .45 ACP, adopted by the US Army in 1911, was patented in 1905.

The Mauser C98, the first successful and truely dependable, powerful semi-auto pistol, was introduced for sale in 1898.



This is what I referred to:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_Weapons_Ban
 
#juan
No Party Affiliation
#71
Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert View Post

Most people don't need 2 or 3 vehicles. A lot of people don't need one.
Most target guns are at least modified specifically for target. Perhaps , Juan, you should learn a little bit about guns and target shooting.

L.G. While in the military(Air Force) I have shot off tens of thousands of rounds with handguns, mainly Browning high powers and Colt 45s. I took the course offered to pilots so they would know which end of a pistol was the pointy end. Our F-86 seat pacs, surprizingly, had a large Colt 45 cal. revolver. Admittedly I don't know much about target shooting other than what I've seen watching the Olympics.

I've owned quite a few guns. My favourite rifle was a Winchester model 94 30:30. I had a Cooey 22 repeater rifle which was my first gun of any kind, I saved up and bought it from the Eatons catalogue. A couple shotguns, one of which I still have, plus a few others. I'm not an expert but I have used a few guns.
 
MikeyDB
#72
I got my rifle training with an outfit that prides itself as riflemen first and later as a recreational shooter involved in target pistol and practical shooting competitions you quickly realize that just about any durn fool can shoot a rifle and be reasonably sure of hitting their target... well after some practice too...

Pistols are inherently less accurate than rifles or long-guns...not like the Baretta that was misused by Gill..which has been IMHO an effort on the part of firearms manufacturers to satisfy the myth of "power" magically accruing to the guy or gal on the screen that's identified as the hero....or the bad guy...mostly hogwash....

I don't really care for Tom Cruise's acting ability but the film "Colateral" was one of the more accurate Hollywood efforts, but the skill demonstrated in that movie would take a great deal of training and practice for a very long time....
 
gopher
No Party Affiliation
+1
#73
The number of murders done with registered handguns is so tiny as to be insignificant.


Source?

Home accidents have resulted in a great many fatalities and debilitations in the USA especially among children:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract


"1: J Forensic Sci. 1994 May;39(3):685-92. Links
Deaths due to firearms injuries in children.
Office of the Medical Examiner of Cook County, Chicago, IL.
There has been a marked increase in firearms-related deaths in this country over the past several decades. Especially in urban areas this increase has been correlated with a greater availability of handguns. Children have become more common victims of gunfire. Both accidental and homicidal shooting deaths have increased in the lower age groups. We examined deaths due to gunfire in children ten years and younger in Cook County, Illinois, which contains the large city of Chicago. Homicidal shootings predominated in this age group with the most common circumstances being a child struck by a stray bullet. Accidental shooting deaths always occurred when one or more children were playing with a gun they found in the home.
PMID: 8006617 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Related Links









Note that I oppose gun control as I am a big believer in Second Amendment rights. The key here is that we need more measures to insure home safety rather than restricting the right to keep or bear weapons.
 
MikeyDB
#74
One of the tests performed "live-fire" in the Black Badge qualification program is called the "El Presidente" and the trainee is required to stand in the surrender position ten yards from a target, center-fire handgun (semi-auto or revolver) holstered in "condition one" and at the buzzer draw the firearm and score two five point hits on the target in under two seconds....

The scene in Colateral where Cruise dispatches two rowdies to the pearly gates took 1.2 seconds...
 
MikeyDB
#75
Gopher

All my firearms are rendered un-usable as they are returned to their locked containers (with bore and trigger locks on frames and through actions etc.) stored in one location wile ammuntion and critical components to various firearms are stored some distance away in another locked container.

If you'll recall, what I said was a dearth of common sense....
 
MikeyDB
#76
Besides, the best all-around home defense firearm is a Remington 870 twelve guage with six rounds of double-ought. Difficult to miss and nobody's moving anymore.
 
gopher
No Party Affiliation
+1
#77
Actually, this is my point: we need to keep guns safely in our homes so that our children will always be safe. In this way, nobody can say that society has an overriding right to take away our weapons.
 
MikeyDB
#78
Do you own a firearm and do you use it? Or is that something a "gopher" cringes at considering???
 
MikeyDB
#79

Who decides when a society believes/identifies/is coerced into accepting…that a condition exists that nullifies the rights of other members of that society?

All automobiles boats trucks and buses contribute to air pollution and we’re prepared it would appear as a society, to embrace the increased incidents of respiratory dysfunction and air borne toxins, global warming and pseudo-values of an automobile-addicted society….

I guess the votes already been taken regarding the rights of the children of the entire planet to be able to breath in the future never mind have water to drink!

I don’t hear anyone complaining about these kinds of issues nearly as loudly as I hear people screaming about “gun-control”….

 
MikeyDB
#80
Think maybe our perspectives and perceptions are being meddled with here...

Quick pass me that tin-foil hat....
 
L Gilbert
No Party Affiliation
#81
Quote:

There are an estimated 7.4 million firearms in Canada, about 1.2 million of which are restricted firearms (mostly handguns). In the U.S., there are approximately 222 million firearms; 76 million of the firearms in circulation are handguns.
For 1987-96, on average, 65% of homicides in the U.S. involved firearms, compared to 32% for Canada
For 1987-96, the average firearm homicide rate was 5.7 per 100,000 in the U.S., compared to 0.7 per 100,000 for Canada.
For 1989-95, the average handgun homicide rate was 4.8 per 100,000 in the U.S., compared to 0.3 per 100,000 for Canada. Handguns were involved in more than half (52%) of the homicides in the U.S., compared to 14% in Canada.
For 1989-95, the average non-firearm homicide rate was 3.1 per 100,000 people in the U.S., compared to 1.6 per 100,000 for Canada.

- National Firearms Center

Quote:

The national homicide rate inched up to 2.04 per 100,000 population in 2005 from 1.95 in 2004, Statistics Canada reported Wednesday. That's still well below the peak of 3.3 reached in the late 1970s.
Police reported 658 homicides last year, up 34 from 2004.
Of these, 222 were committed with a firearm, up from 173 gun deaths the previous year. There were 198 fatal stabbings.
Most of the increase in deaths was driven by a jump in gang-related homicides, particularly in Ontario and Alberta, the statistics agency said.
Police reported that 107 homicides were believed to be gang-related in 2005, 35 more than in 2004.

- http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Law/2006...277244-cp.html

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/051006/d051006b.htm

http://canadaonline.about.com/od/cri...icides2005.htm

http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel121202.asp

NOTE: Homicide rate from 1989-1995 was 0.7/100,000 and in 2004 it was 1.95/100,000 and in 2005 it was 2.04/100,000. The simple fact is that the new rules and regs haven't worked, period. And we're paying 2+ billion for something that doesn't work. Nice bottom line.
Last edited by L Gilbert; Jan 12th, 2007 at 12:53 AM..
 
MikeyDB
#82
It's always interested me that both the Ontario government and Enron had the same accounting firm doing their books....

Canadians are always paying for flim-flam as government...why should firearms saftey be any different?
 
L Gilbert
No Party Affiliation
#83
Quote: Originally Posted by MikeyDB View Post

Besides, the best all-around home defense firearm is a Remington 870 twelve guage with six rounds of double-ought. Difficult to miss and nobody's moving anymore.

Or an Ithaca Featherlight 12 Ga. 3" Magnum with any round in it. BTW, Mikey in Canada one is only allowed 2 shells in a shotgun. Slides and semiautos are supposed to have plugs in the magazines.
 
gopher
No Party Affiliation
+1
#84
Quote: Originally Posted by MikeyDB View Post

Do you own a firearm and do you use it? Or is that something a "gopher" cringes at considering???


No firearms - but I'm good with a machete!
 
L Gilbert
No Party Affiliation
#85
Quote: Originally Posted by gopher View Post

Actually, this is my point: we need to keep guns safely in our homes so that our children will always be safe. In this way, nobody can say that society has an overriding right to take away our weapons.

I was brought up in a house with a rifle and a shotgun standing against the wall next to the door. I was taught they are just tools not weapons and hence are to be respected like any tool and never pointed at anyone.
I now keep a firearm next to the door fully loaded. All this claptrap about gun safes and whatnot is ridiculous. I mentioned a grizzly taking apart a barn to kill, drag away, and eat stock does not take time to wait for you to see what the noise is about, go to the safe, unlock it, grab a rifle, unlock the trigger locks, unlock the bin the ammo is in, load, and get out of the house to remedy the situation. Friggin city folk are pretty ignorant about some things and that's one of them. (BTW, the grizzly was an antique, dressed out to almost 800 pounds: dressed is without the head, skin, paws, and guts; his teeth were flattened or broken from age, his liver was a mass of worms, and he was very undernourished which is probably why he was trying to get into the barn). If he had been a younger bear, he probably would have been at least 300 pounds more muscled and would have been dragging a pig out of the barn by the time I got out there. I have seen griz teeth holes 3/4 of an inch in diameter, and the stainless steel thermos' were crushed like aluminum beer cans. A griz can lift a full grown bull elk (6 or 700 pounds) clean off the ground. A barn clad with 1x5 boards is not much of a deterrent. If you think I am going to go through the friggin rigmarole laid out in the rules, you need serious psychiatric help. The only other alternative is that the idiots who come up with these moronic rules fork over the cost of stock plus the damages to the barn or the coop every time something happens.
Another thing, I have catsa that stay outside to keep rodents down. I therefore feed them outside. I spend
about $35/month on cat food and I don't want coons and skunks eating it all. If you think it's easy to keep those particular critters out of the cat food, you need help. My alternative is a little .22 handgun which dissuades said critters from eating the cats' food.
 
L Gilbert
No Party Affiliation
#86
And no, I will not even entertain the idea of bear-bangers, pepper spray, or any other inane suggestion.
 
Colpy
Conservative
#87
Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert View Post

Or an Ithaca Featherlight 12 Ga. 3" Magnum with any round in it. BTW, Mikey in Canada one is only allowed 2 shells in a shotgun. Slides and semiautos are supposed to have plugs in the magazines.

Technical correction: This is untrue.

For waterfowl hunting, (migratory game birds) shotguns must be plugged to hold a maximum of three rounds.

For upland hunting (in New Brunswick) up to five rounds are allowed.

Until recently, I owned a Remington 870 Marine Magnum that would hold 8 rounds...........perfectly legal.
 
L Gilbert
No Party Affiliation
#88
Quote: Originally Posted by Colpy View Post

Technical correction: This is untrue.

For waterfowl hunting, (migratory game birds) shotguns must be plugged to hold a maximum of three rounds.

For upland hunting (in New Brunswick) up to five rounds are allowed.

Until recently, I owned a Remington 870 Marine Magnum that would hold 8 rounds...........perfectly legal.

OK. I stand ( or sit rather) corrected. Upon consideration, I do remember having 3 rounds in the last time I went hunting birds. Still had to have a plug in the Ithaca, though, as it holds 6 rounds. It put two rounds of salt into the backend of a blackie a couple years ago. The idea was to dissuade it from eating all my apples and breaking my trees. It worked. Haven't heard growls from my dogs since.
 
MikeyDB
#89
Quote: Originally Posted by Colpy View Post

Technical correction: This is untrue.

For waterfowl hunting, (migratory game birds) shotguns must be plugged to hold a maximum of three rounds.

For upland hunting (in New Brunswick) up to five rounds are allowed.

Until recently, I owned a Remington 870 Marine Magnum that would hold 8 rounds...........perfectly legal.

Isn't that model 870 the short barrel type in stainless steel?

If it's the shotgun I'm thinking of...that's a great little canon!
 
MikeyDB
#90
Colpy

Explain to me please why a handgun magazine is a "restricted weapon"....???