Gun Control is Completely Useless.


RomSpaceKnight
#31
You also posted in a "conservative" lounge where conservatives can discuss issues important to them. A true debate would be conducted in a more open forum. Try discuss gun control in a "liberal" forum and see the response you get. I bet you would be figuratively taken out and burnt at the stake. It's like debating Christianity in a christian forum. Who has home field advantage?
 
turubawebmaster
#32
It's mostly the hunting rifles I'm talkin about that the liberals tried wasting money on.... Toronto still has shootings anyway and there are lots of gun smuggling activity on the US border especially Vancouver-Seattle and Detroit-Windsor... In any way we still have a problem with gun crime. I think most of the people using rifles is for game use... Maybe it's different in urban areas but I've grown up in Northern Ontario where we like outdoors and we never see gun crime.... It's very seldom to have that problem in communities up here.
 
turubawebmaster
#33
One problem I think has been going on is unfair gas prices for different regions... People around Thunder Bay have been paying more for gas the last couple months and it's very shocking because almost everyone around there rely on driving... There is something not right about this... I see around Toronto they have pollution from the high density of cars and they have the choice of publice transportation... Why can't they pay just as much as people up north? If you really want to help decrease a demand on fuel I think companies should ship everything by rail rather than by truck.... Trains consume only half the fuel all the trucks on the road consume.... Not only our government, but the US government as well doesn't do anything when we complain about fuel demand.... I think the americans are especially the ones to use more trains than trucks.... The best way is spreading the message to everyone out there on how we can come out with a good solution
 
RomSpaceKnight
#34
Quote: Originally Posted by turubawebmaster View Post

One problem I think has been going on is unfair gas prices for different regions... People around Thunder Bay have been paying more for gas the last couple months and it's very shocking because almost everyone around there rely on driving... There is something not right about this... I see around Toronto they have pollution from the high density of cars and they have the choice of publice transportation... Why can't they pay just as much as people up north? If you really want to help decrease a demand on fuel I think companies should ship everything by rail rather than by truck.... Trains consume only half the fuel all the trucks on the road consume.... Not only our government, but the US government as well doesn't do anything when we complain about fuel demand.... I think the americans are especially the ones to use more trains than trucks.... The best way is spreading the message to everyone out there on how we can come out with a good solution


And this applies to gun control how?
 
selfactivated
#35
Colpy Thank You for the well thought out and researched post. (I have the same problem with the space thing)

This subject is a pet peeve of mine. I lived in Texas 12 years. Ive made it no secret Im a certified nutcase. The part you left out was that if you are on psych meds you are not allowed a gun ANY gun. We had 15 sorted guns in MY name. Gun laws are a joke.

Everyone in my house was taught gun safety by me and the ex, my youngest shoots better than I do and Im not bad. In my opinion rifles for hunting should be given without trouble. But who needs a pistol now a days? You can protect your house with a rifle. The only people that need pistols are professionals to catch the criminals.......thats my opinion
 
turubawebmaster
#36
Quote: Originally Posted by RomSpaceKnight View Post

So we shoud only have gun contol in urban areas but predominately rural areas you can own whatever gun you choose to?
So only rich people should own guns but poor immigrants should not be allowed to own guns?
Is you life in so much danger you feel you need to own a handgun?
Do you feel there is a chance that our goverment may turn into a totalitarian system and that we need to bear arms to ensure a free democracy?
Have you tried to get a motorcycle license and seen the hops you have to jump through (actually pylons you gotta drive around)?
Bureaucratic bumbling and cost overuns are a fact of life in Canadian politics. Is the idea of a gun registry so abhorrent to you?
Picking and choosing what states to quote for stats is, In my opinion, incorrect. A simple look at the US and divide by 10 (population ratios) works for me. The 3 provinces and state you picked do not have large urban areas like Toronto, Vancouver or Montreal. 3 cities have a huge proportion of the Canadian population. St. Johns NB is a peaceful backwater local in comparison. Not all of us live in idealic small towns. I grew up in a small town that had not had a murder in 50 years.

Im not talking about poor immigrants, I'm talking about the people up north and im talking mostly about those who like outdoors... Hunting has been part of a northern tradition for years... I think the idiotic gun laws have been an insult to the north.... A friend of mine that has a gun collection was especially upset about this... In my opinion I think Canadians deserve that freedom
 
turubawebmaster
#37
Quote: Originally Posted by RomSpaceKnight View Post

And this applies to gun control how?

no it's another issue I wanted to bring up
 
RomSpaceKnight
#38
Sorry I should have quoted Colpy's original post I was refering to his view.
 
RomSpaceKnight
#39
Quote: Originally Posted by turubawebmaster View Post

no it's another issue I wanted to bring up

You may want to start another post. Colpy stated this one after a discussion of ours in Gitmo North turned to gun control.
 
gopher
No Party Affiliation
+1
#40
I thought this topic had been closed.

One thing that may not have been considered is the fact that police in the USA are the ones who often lobby for gun control legislation. They especially picked up on their lobbying when semi-automatic guns hit the market and put them at great risk.
 
turubawebmaster
#41
yea... those semi automatic guns are pretty dangerous if someone wants to use it for shootings... I think a limit is important to what they shouldn't register
 
RomSpaceKnight
#42
Quote: Originally Posted by gopher View Post

I thought this topic had been closed.

One thing that may not have been considered is the fact that police in the USA are the ones who often lobby for gun control legislation. They especially picked up on their lobbying when semi-automatic guns hit the market and put them at great risk.

Police in Canada went to semi-autos under work place safety legislation. Revolvers put them at an unsafe disadvantage to the criminals plus revolvers were old and any misfires would make them an unsafe tool.
 
L Gilbert
No Party Affiliation
#43
Quote: Originally Posted by BitWhys View Post

so let it be written...

http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/international/canada/

http://www.anvari.org/shortjoke/Funny2/116.html

Peachy, huh?
 
turubawebmaster
#44
the Canadian customs officers and border guards never carred guns before... quite stupid don't you think
 
RomSpaceKnight
#45
Non refer to the thread on gun control. Or is the point that gun control laws are not dumb.
 
L Gilbert
No Party Affiliation
#46
Quote: Originally Posted by #juan View Post

Somehow gun control became insanely expensive and I don't know how that happened but I don't think it is useless.

link

link

One thing that was interesting was that the worst place for murders in the whole of the civilized world was the Northwest Territories.

FACT: Comparison of U.S. gun homicides to other industrialized countries:
In 1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled), handguns murdered:

* 373 people in Germany
* 151 people in Canada
* 57 people in Australia
* 19 people in Japan
* 54 people in England and Wales, and
* 11,789 people in the United States

What are the per capita figures? The States have an awful lot of people.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...rms-per-capita

11,789 (US) 151 (CA) = 78. But the murder by firearms rate in the US is not 78 times that of Canada, it's only 4 times the rate. Germany is right there alongside Canada per capita, but they aren't 2.5 times as murderous. Look at Mexico with it's archaic and draconian gun laws (worse than ours): they are 5th in the world per capita and the States are 8th.
If the authorities would actually have enforced the existing laws before the 2+ billion dollar debacle, things would be better..
 
Dexter Sinister
No Party Affiliation
#47
There are five guns in my house. There's a 12 gauge Remington pump action shotgun I bought 35 years ago for bird hunting. There's a second one I inherited from my dad's estate when he died in 1990. There's a 12 gauge Cooey single shot shotgun chambered for 3" shells that I bought 30 years ago specifically for hunting geese. There's a 1917 vintage bolt action Lee Enfield .303 rifle I inherited from my father-in-law's estate that I've used for deer hunting. And there's a Cooey single shot .22 rifle I bought from a neighbour that I've used against pests like rats at the lake. All are duly registered as required by current law, because I'm a dutiful and law-abiding citizen, and they're safely stored as the law requires.

But anyone who tries to confiscate them from me is going to find himself looking down the wrong end of the barrel.
 
Colpy
Conservative
#48
Quote: Originally Posted by gopher View Post

I thought this topic had been closed.

One thing that may not have been considered is the fact that police in the USA are the ones who often lobby for gun control legislation. They especially picked up on their lobbying when semi-automatic guns hit the market and put them at great risk.

Excuse me?

That must have been quite some time ago.

The first semi-auto hunting rifles were introduced by Remington in 1903.

The Colt .45 ACP, adopted by the US Army in 1911, was patented in 1905.

The Mauser C98, the first successful and truely dependable, powerful semi-auto pistol, was introduced for sale in 1898.
 
L Gilbert
No Party Affiliation
#49
Quote: Originally Posted by RomSpaceKnight View Post

Non refer to the thread on gun control. Or is the point that gun control laws are not dumb.

Just got up and aren't perceiving things well yet? I was pointing out that stupid laws exist and these new gun laws are stupid and aren't helping.

Quote:

Canada's national crime rate, based on incidents reported to police, fell 5% last year despite increases in serious crimes such as homicide, attempted murder, serious assaults and robbery.

- StatsCan

http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/...egulation.html

http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...0508190817.asp
 
Colpy
Conservative
#50
Hey!
Thanks for coming!

Quote:

So we shoud only have gun contol in urban areas but predominately rural areas you can own whatever gun you choose to? So only rich people should own guns but poor immigrants should not be allowed to own guns?

I think you missed my point. Most gun crime in inner cities is committed with illegal guns which are, by definition, beyond the control of the law. How does taking away my guns help control crime in Toronto for instance? ANYBODY should be allowed to own guns that is not a criminal or insane. (I don't have a big problem with licensing, just with idiotic classification, registration, transport, and carry laws)

Quote:

Is you life in so much danger you feel you need to own a handgun?

Is your life in so much danger you feel I need to be denied liberty to keep you safe? The onus is on the people who want to restrict liberty to prove the benefit of that. They have failed to do so.

Quote:

Do you feel there is a chance that our goverment may turn into a totalitarian system and that we need to bear arms to ensure a free democracy?

Yes. Never trust government. Political power comes out of the muzzle of a rifle, therefore rifles belong in the hands of the people.

Quote:

Have you tried to get a motorcycle license and seen the hops you have to jump through (actually pylons you gotta drive around)?

Believe me, it is not even close. In fact, the proposal of the National Firearms Association for the Practical Firearms Control System is modeled on licensing pilots.......and is so much simpler than the mess we have now.

Quote:

Bureaucratic bumbling and cost overuns are a fact of life in Canadian politics. Is the idea of a gun registry so abhorrent to you?

Oh, yes, absolutely. Registration inevitably leads to confiscation............the two go hand-in-hand.

Quote:

Picking and choosing what states to quote for stats is, In my opinion, incorrect. A simple look at the US and divide by 10 (population ratios) works for me. The 3 provinces and state you picked do not have large urban areas like Toronto, Vancouver or Montreal. 3 cities have a huge proportion of the Canadian population. St. Johns NB is a peaceful backwater local in comparison. Not all of us live in idealic small towns. I grew up in a small town that had not had a murder in 50 years.

That's funny. The LOWEST murder rate is in Newfoundland which, BTW, also has the highest rate of gun ownership
I tried to choose areas that had a similar culture and people. My point was that the presence of firearms does NOT increase murder.

In Switzerland, EVERY male between 18 and 45 keeps a selective fire rifle (that's a machine gun! GASP) and 200 rounds of ammo ready in their home. Their murder rate is comparable with Canada.

In Jamaica, possession of a BULLET gets you life, all legal guns were seized and dumped into the sea 30 years ago, and it's an ISLAND for God's sake. Their murder rate is about 35 per 100,000 almost six times that of the USA.

There is no corelation between gun ownership and murder. Simple as that.
 
Colpy
Conservative
#51
One more interesting thing.......about the stats I posted.

The murder rate in Canada, at least in these provinces, is CLIMBING, despite our ever-toughening gun laws.

The rate in the comparable American states is FALLING.....despite the recent relaxation of US gun laws.........

Think about that......then go buy John Lott's book, More Guns, Less Crime
 
L Gilbert
No Party Affiliation
#52
Good one, Colpy. I had forgotten about that fact about homicide rates climbing here and falling over there.
 
L Gilbert
No Party Affiliation
#53
Anyway, as I said before, the only way to keep people from using guns on each other is to prevent criminals and idiots from having guns. Those laws do neither and in fact (speaking of idiots) the idiots that administer these laws even have accepted the registrations of water guns, hair dryers, etc. Ask that Sask. MP Breitkreuz:

http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/guncontrol.htm
 
RomSpaceKnight
#54
All these debates come down to he said, she said, you started it, tossing around of stats and facts for both sides of argument. When it comes down to it these are the laws of this land and they will be enforced and obeyed.

I will give folk of the conservative bent some leeway here. Conservatives like lax gun laws and strict drug laws for the most part. While those of us with a more liberal bent prefer lax drug laws and strict gun control. I think banning handguns ,strictly controlling long guns and banning hard drugs and strictly controlling marijuana is the middle road. As opposed to unrestrictive gun laws and prohibition on marijuana or total gun bans and hard drugs being treated like alcohol and nicotine. Which are topics for another thread.
 
L Gilbert
No Party Affiliation
+1
#55
Actually the debates come down to the fact that facts and stats "hold water" and emotional claptrap doesn't.
 
Colpy
Conservative
#56
Quote: Originally Posted by RomSpaceKnight View Post

All these debates come down to he said, she said, you started it, tossing around of stats and facts for both sides of argument. When it comes down to it these are the laws of this land and they will be enforced and obeyed.

I will give folk of the conservative bent some leeway here. Conservatives like lax gun laws and strict drug laws for the most part. While those of us with a more liberal bent prefer lax drug laws and strict gun control. I think banning handguns ,strictly controlling long guns and banning hard drugs and strictly controlling marijuana is the middle road. As opposed to unrestrictive gun laws and prohibition on marijuana or total gun bans and hard drugs being treated like alcohol and nicotine. Which are topics for another thread.

Why ban handguns?

The number of murders done with registered handguns is so tiny as to be insignificant.

Handguns have been registered in this country since 1934, yet their use in crime is increasing.

Seems to be you show a dangerous affinity for government control.

Myself, I'd like to see licensing laws for firearms (easy and cheap, without restricting liberty), the legalization of marijuana at least...............

There is far too much law in this nation.
 
MikeyDB
+1
#57
Far too much law and and a dearth of common sense.
 
hermanntrude
#58
colpy thank you for the in-depth statistics at the beginning. I wish i knew who to believe though as there seem to be some pretty startling statistics which appear to show the opposite.

I dont know who to listen to but I am certainly softening in my views on guns after having seen what seems to be valid proof that canada's extensive gun control makes little difference.

Having said that u did mention that the ghettos in the US skew the statistics, and u did choose three rather ghetto-less states to compare. Maybe gun controls would help with the ghetto problems?
 
#juan
No Party Affiliation
#59
First off, the cost of the gun control program is a disgusting, flagrant, waste.

Apart from that, can someone tell me what use a handgun is to anyone but police and armoured car guards and the like, where these people are needed to protect property and life? If target shooters can convince the authorities that they are sane and responsible, I suppose they can own handguns as long as they follow the rules.

Handguns are useless for hunting unless you want to go up north and provoke a grizzley with a 44 magnum. Handguns were designed for killing people, nothing else.

Rifles and shotguns are easy to buy, and for a short range defensive weapon, the shotgun has no equal.

Why do other people need handguns?
Last edited by #juan; Jan 11th, 2007 at 03:08 PM..
 
Colpy
Conservative
#60
Quote: Originally Posted by #juan View Post

First off, the cost of the gun control program is a disgusting, flagrant, waste.

Apart from that, can someone tell me what use a handgun is to anyone but police and armoured car guards and the like, where these people are needed to protect property and life? If target shooters can convince the authorities that they are sane and responsible, I suppose they can own handguns as long as they follow the rules.

Handguns are useless for hunting unless you want to go up north and provoke a grizzley with a 44 magnum. Handguns were designed for killing people, nothing else.

Rifles and shotguns are easy to buy, and for a short range defensive weapon, the shotgun has no equal.

Absolutely correct, Juan, except for one very important detail.

There are hundguns built for single-shot free pistol competitions.

There are handguns built for long-range shilouette shooting.

There are handguns built specifically for bullseye shooting, in both centre-fire and rimfire disciplines.

There are handguns built for Olympic style rapid fire bullseye, in both centre-fire and rimfire disciplines.

There are handguns built as campers' companions.

There are handguns built for the various cowboy competitions.

There are "race guns" built for the unlimited class in IPSC competitions.

AND there are very definitely handguns built specifically for hunting, including most of the .44 Magnums you mention. There are, BTW, a number of new guns that are vastly more powerful than the old .44 Mag. Clint Eastwood is SOOO passe.

And there are handguns made for self-defense.

The vast majority of handgun types built today are NOT intended for killing people.