Democracy

Tecumsehsbones

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Or rather, representative democracy. A republic, in which those in authority are elected by and exercise power on behalf of the people.

But what are the people? Certainly in Canada and the U.S., "the people" (eligible voters) was a tiny fraction of the population not long ago. And still is far from all the people.

In the U.S., there are three branches of government, one of which is divided into two chambers. Only the House of Representatives and the Senate are remotely democratically chosen. The President is elected by the states, not by the people, and the Supreme Court is selected by the President, with a limited veto by the Senate, which effectively means the majority party in the Senate.

As I understand it, in Canada only the House of Commons is democratically elected. The Senate is effectively chosen by the PM with input from the HoC (especially the party or parties in government), the executive is chosen by the House of Commons, and the judiciary is chosen by the government and effectively rubber-stamped by the GG. (Correct me if I'm wrong on that.)

So. . . two questions arise about "democracy."

1. Whom should be included and whom excluded from the electorate?

2. What effect should an individual's vote have on the composition of the government (I mean "government" in the sense of those who make, enforce, and interpret laws, not the committee appointed to run Canada).

I suppose the purest form of "democracy" would be a unicameral legislature chosen from legislative districts (ridings) of precisely the same population, with no limits on any citizen voting (or possibly even any person voting). If one has a separate executive, like the U.S., that would be by direct, popular, national election. But that has never been the case, isn't now, and we have commenters on this board who want to skew it even further, constructing or adjusting systems so that people in low-population-density areas would have more representation per capita.

So, I'm interested in thoughts on the two questions above.

I don't suppose it would do me any good to ask the usual suspects to limit themselves to actual thought, and not howl bumper-sticker slogans demanding minor readjustments to the current, unequal system designed to make it either more or differently unequal.
 

bob the dog

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Basing representation on population does not account for regional diversification. High density urban dwellers rule the day. The election is over before it hits the central time zone. How is that right?
 

Tecumsehsbones

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Basing representation on population does not account for regional diversification. High density urban dwellers rule the day. The election is over before it hits the central time zone. How is that right?
Well, I think we should start from a base assumption of "one person, one vote." That seems intuitively obvious to me.

If you want to justify "regional diversification," I'm willing to listen, but simply claiming something is "not right" don't do it for me. Why is it "not right." If a country is, say, 85% urbanized (Australia, the most urbanized country in the world), how much extra influence should a minority of one-in-seven have?
 

taxslave

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Nov 25, 2008
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OK. One person one vote works quite well in a situation where all the areas represented have both roughly the same population and same size. From my admittedly little experience with the ward system in larger cities it should be fairly equal, in that they all live in roughly the same area and have the same basic needs the local government. However when expanded to the national scale when you have an urban area with maybe 20 elected representatives and then you have one elected representative covering an area more than twice the size and 20 or more communities things get out of wack. Even more so when that small urban area is controlling the economic development of the rural riding 2000 miles away.
Another problem we have is that the majority of our population is clinging to the US border like a little kid hanging on to mommy's leg. They are psychologically closer to the much more populated US than to the far flung reaches of our own country.
Another huge difference between our two countries is how federal-provincial(state) rights are determines. As I understand it States rights are firmly entrenched while in Canada Provincial rights are loose and somewhat determined by what the Federal government decides to give them.
Given this huge disparity one person one vote does not mean equal representation.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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OK. One person one vote works quite well in a situation where all the areas represented have both roughly the same population and same size. From my admittedly little experience with the ward system in larger cities it should be fairly equal, in that they all live in roughly the same area and have the same basic needs the local government. However when expanded to the national scale when you have an urban area with maybe 20 elected representatives and then you have one elected representative covering an area more than twice the size and 20 or more communities things get out of wack. Even more so when that small urban area is controlling the economic development of the rural riding 2000 miles away.
Another problem we have is that the majority of our population is clinging to the US border like a little kid hanging on to mommy's leg. They are psychologically closer to the much more populated US than to the far flung reaches of our own country.
Another huge difference between our two countries is how federal-provincial(state) rights are determines. As I understand it States rights are firmly entrenched while in Canada Provincial rights are loose and somewhat determined by what the Federal government decides to give them.
Given this huge disparity one person one vote does not mean equal representation.
OK, what does mean equal representation?

I promise no tricks and no traps in this thread. It is obviously true that urbanites and rural folk can have very different interests, and that the populations favor the urbanites in a straight "one person, one vote" system.

But is that unfair? Should one man who has 20,000 hectares have a greater say than one who has 40 square metres?

I'm listening.

I'll deal with the state/province vs. national government thing later. That's too many balls in the air at once.
 

Hoid

Hall of Fame Member
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1. Your use of the word "whom" is incorrect in this instance - you are not referring to the object of a verb.
 

taxslave

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OK, what does mean equal representation?
I promise no tricks and no traps in this thread. It is obviously true that urbanites and rural folk can have very different interests, and that the populations favor the urbanites in a straight "one person, one vote" system.
But is that unfair? Should one man who has 20,000 hectares have a greater say than one who has 40 square metres?
I'm listening.
I'll deal with the state/province vs. national government thing later. That's too many balls in the air at once.
If your taxes are based on the size of the property then the guy with 20000 ha should have more say since he will be shouldering a greater portion of the tax burden.
I'm not too sure there is a one size fits all solution either. Or use a parcel tax where everyone pays the same regardless of size of holding. This is often done by municipalities for common improvements.
 

taxslave

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Defining equal representation is the difficult question. Again it comes back to the people per sq km thing. So question for you to ponder. What does it tell you when the majority federal government is completely shut out of one province when there are only 11 and a couple of territories? And the population in one city in Ontario is about double that of an entire province.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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If your taxes are based on the size of the property then the guy with 20000 ha should have more say since he will be shouldering a greater portion of the tax burden.
I'm not too sure there is a one size fits all solution either. Or use a parcel tax where everyone pays the same regardless of size of holding. This is often done by municipalities for common improvements.
What if your taxes are based on the size of your income? Should rich people have more representation than regular folks? (They do, but theoretically, they don't.)
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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What if you are rich, have land and employ 10 fulltime and 20 seasonal?

At that point you have a mutually beneficial relationship with at least the municipal Govt.

The win-win for everyone hinges on integrity.

Is it power? Yes but limited. Does being the sitting municipal head have power? Yes but limited.

Who has the real power if not the rich land ownwer/employer or the municipal head?

An INFORMED and community ACTIVE voter has the most power.

Hey wait, that sounds like "communal living"! It is.

It's not democracy, socialism, communism or totalitarianism. It is just plain old common ground and compromise to do what is best for the community.

Integrity and community are long gone.
 
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taxslave

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What if your taxes are based on the size of your income? Should rich people have more representation than regular folks? (They do, but theoretically, they don't.)
Income taxes already are. To an extent so are other taxes such as GST credit for low income. Subsidized housing for low income as well.
The rich don't really have better representation in Canada but they are poised to take better advantage of the representation they have. What if you are a rich businessperson in an area represented by a socialist member of government. Do you have any representation? IF you live in a riding such as I do that is resource rich but represented by a tourism business owner and has a lot of well off retired people not born here do you have any representation at all?
 

Tecumsehsbones

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Income taxes already are. To an extent so are other taxes such as GST credit for low income. Subsidized housing for low income as well.
The rich don't really have better representation in Canada but they are poised to take better advantage of the representation they have. What if you are a rich businessperson in an area represented by a socialist member of government. Do you have any representation? IF you live in a riding such as I do that is resource rich but represented by a tourism business owner and has a lot of well off retired people not born here do you have any representation at all?
It sounds almost as if you're saying "If the guy I want doesn't win, I have no representation."

Do you think that a tourism business owner will necessarily ignore or disfavor resource-extraction to the benefit of tourism?
 

taxslave

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It sounds almost as if you're saying "If the guy I want doesn't win, I have no representation."
Do you think that a tourism business owner will necessarily ignore or disfavor resource-extraction to the benefit of tourism?
Absolutely positive. Happened with our current federal MP that had the same previous position in the same town.Same party, different wing.
 

bob the dog

Council Member
Aug 14, 2020
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If you want to justify "regional diversification," I'm willing to listen, but simply claiming something is "not right" don't do it for me. Why is it "not right." If a country is, say, 85% urbanized (Australia, the most urbanized country in the world), how much extra influence should a minority of one-in-seven have?

Going back 300 years to the days of the Northwest Company and the Montreal fur trade that pretty well started the place, not that many beaver were caught downtown Mount Royale. Without the resource to manage they do not exist. Kind of hard to stack farms on top of each other but easy to sell grain from an office tower.

Almost 50 federal ridings in the GTA based on population density and yet almost all with similar regional and municipal concerns. Hard to get excited about Manitoba's chances of influencing policy.

Pencil in three two day western Canada trips for the campaign. No buses.
 

Hoid

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 15, 2017
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Going back 300 years to the days of the Northwest Company and the Montreal fur trade that pretty well started the place, not that many beaver were caught downtown Mount Royale. Without the resource to manage they do not exist. Kind of hard to stack farms on top of each other but easy to sell grain from an office tower.

Almost 50 federal ridings in the GTA based on population density and yet almost all with similar regional and municipal concerns. Hard to get excited about Manitoba's chances of influencing policy.

Pencil in three two day western Canada trips for the campaign. No buses.
That's a lot of words to not an answer a question.

You will be happy when your vote is worth 1,000 votes in Toronto? 10,000?
 

IdRatherBeSkiing

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May 28, 2007
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Well, I think we should start from a base assumption of "one person, one vote." That seems intuitively obvious to me.

If you want to justify "regional diversification," I'm willing to listen, but simply claiming something is "not right" don't do it for me. Why is it "not right." If a country is, say, 85% urbanized (Australia, the most urbanized country in the world), how much extra influence should a minority of one-in-seven have?


The USA handles this by the Senate being 2 per state and the congress being elected by population. The electoral college is also designed the way it is to prevent overepresentation of one area.



In theory Canada does the same thing but we sort of still favour Ontario and Quebec in it and its appointed so its kind of not the same. I think Ontario gets N senators, Quebec gets N senators and all the maritimes gets N senators and the west gets N senators and that is supposed to be equal.
 

Dixie Cup

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Sep 16, 2006
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The number of Senators chosen is supposed to reflect the population of the Provinces they came from and as the population increases, eventually the Province gains another Senator. In Alberta, we elect the Senators so we actually have a say in who represents us as long as the Federal Gov't appoints said elected Senator. Other Provinces prefer that the Feds pick their Senators which doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever simply due to partisanships. If I'm not mistaken, Alberta & BC are due additional Senators because of the increase in population but that hasn't happened.

I also don't like the fact that as population increases we get more Senators but it means that we have more people at the public purse. I don't know the answer to this that would be fair for everyone concerned, but the increasing cost of government is really disturbing - we can't seem to get a government that understands that "it's the spending" stupid and raising taxes isn't a solution.

I get a kick out of the U.S. tho' - Biden says he wants to increase taxes from 8.25% (or something close) to approximately 10% on businesses. In Canada, our tax code STARTS at 15% so I have to chuckle when I hear all the complaining. I understand why our taxes are higher; I just find the complaining in the U.S. funny. At those rates if I were a company, I'd move to the States too!!

JMHO
 
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bob the dog

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That's a lot of words to not an answer a question.
You will be happy when your vote is worth 1,000 votes in Toronto? 10,000?

It would be interesting to look back at the history of GTA politics to see the degree of division in elected representation.