Grace and Karma

Motar
+2
#1  Top Rated Post
Bono - Difference Between Grace and Karma

“It’s a mind-blowing concept that the God who created the universe might be looking for company, a real relationship with people, but the thing that keeps me on my knees is the difference between grace and karma… You see, at the center of all religions is the idea of karma. You know, what you put out comes back to you; an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, or in physics – in physical laws – every action is met by an equal or opposite one. Its clear to me that karma is at the very heart of the universe. I’m absolutely sure of it. And yet, along comes this idea called grace to upend all that “As you reap, so will you sow” stuff. Grace defies reason and logic. Love interrupts, if you like, the consequences of your actions, which in my case is very good news indeed, because I’ve done a lot of stupid stuff. T hat’s between me and God. But I’d be in big trouble if karma was going to finally be my judge. I’d be in deep @#$%. It doesn’t excuse my mistakes, but I’m holding out for grace. I’m holding out that Jesus took my sins onto the cross because I know who I am, and I hope I don’t have to depend on my own religiosity. The point of the death of Christ is that Christ took on the sins of the world so that what we put out did not come back to us, and that our sinful nature does not reap the obvious death. That’s the point. It should keep us humbled….its not our own good works that get through the gates of heaven… If only we could be a bit more like Him, the world would be transformed. All I do is get up on the cross of the ego; the bad hangover, the bad review. When I look at the cross of Christ, what I see up there is all my @#$% and everybody else’s. So I ask myself a question a lot of people have asked: Who is this man? And was He who He said He was, or was he just a religious nut? And there it is, and that’s the question. And no one can talk you into it or out of it.” Bono on the difference between Grace and Karma | Resistance & Renewal

What is grace? What is Karma? Are they compatible? Are they mutually exclusive?
 
Sal
#2
Quote: Originally Posted by Motar View Post

What is grace?

I don't know

Quote:

What is Karma?

Karma is not bad or good. It is merely energy out via behaviour/thought/feeling...and like will draw like....always
Quote:

Are they compatible?

can't say since I don't know what grace is but if it is by the Christian definition then I do not believe in its existence in that way although I do believe we resonate and have light (light is the absence of dark)

Quote:

Are they mutually exclusive?

they would have to be
 
Motar
+1
#3
Quote: Originally Posted by Sal View Post

I don't know

Dictionary (etymological and standard) definitions of grace:

grace (n.)
late 12c., "God's favor or help," from Old French grace "pardon, divine grace, mercy; favor, thanks; elegance, virtue" (12c.), from Latin gratia "favor, esteem, regard; pleasing quality, good will, gratitude" (source of Italian grazia, Spanish gracia), from gratus "pleasing, agreeable," from PIE root *gwere- "to favor" (cf. Sanskrit grnati "sings, praises, announces," Lithuanian giriu "to praise, celebrate," Avestan gar- "to praise"). Online Etymology Dictionary

grace noun \ˈgrās\
1.a : unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification
b : a virtue coming from God
c : a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine grace
Grace - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Grace is God's unmerited favor. It is kindness from God we don't deserve. There is nothing we have done, nor can ever do to earn this favor. It is a gift from God. Grace is divine assistance given to humans for their regeneration ( rebirth ) or sanctification; a virtue coming from God; a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine favor. Grace - What is Grace?
 
DaSleeper
#4



































 
Spade
+1
#5
Dalai Lama: Inner Peace, Happiness, God and Money - YouTube
 
Sal
+1
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by Motar View Post

Dictionary (etymological and standard) definitions of grace:

grace (n.)
late 12c., "God's favor or help," from Old French grace "pardon, divine grace, mercy; favor, thanks; elegance, virtue" (12c.), from Latin gratia "favor, esteem, regard; pleasing quality, good will, gratitude" (source of Italian grazia, Spanish gracia), from gratus "pleasing, agreeable," from PIE root *gwere- "to favor" (cf. Sanskrit grnati "sings, praises, announces," Lithuanian giriu "to praise, celebrate," Avestan gar- "to praise"). Online Etymology Dictionary

grace noun \ˈgrās\
1.a : unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification
b : a virtue coming from God
c : a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine grace
Grace - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Grace is God's unmerited favor. It is kindness from God we don't deserve. There is nothing we have done, nor can ever do to earn this favor. It is a gift from God. Grace is divine assistance given to humans for their regeneration ( rebirth ) or sanctification; a virtue coming from God; a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine favor. Grace - What is Grace?

Thanks Motar, I believe all kindness comes from god as I believe we are a direct part of him. I do not believe he interferes in our world directly although all good energy is of him, thus he is always presnet and I do believe he is conscious of us and loves us.
 
cj44
+1
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by Motar View Post

Bono - Difference Between Grace and Karma

“It’s a mind-blowing concept that the God who created the universe might be looking for company, a real relationship with people, but the thing that keeps me on my knees is the difference between grace and karma… You see, at the center of all religions is the idea of karma. You know, what you put out comes back to you; an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, or in physics – in physical laws – every action is met by an equal or opposite one. Its clear to me that karma is at the very heart of the universe. I’m absolutely sure of it. And yet, along comes this idea called grace to upend all that “As you reap, so will you sow” stuff. Grace defies reason and logic. Love interrupts, if you like, the consequences of your actions, which in my case is very good news indeed, because I’ve done a lot of stupid stuff. T hat’s between me and God. But I’d be in big trouble if karma was going to finally be my judge. I’d be in deep @#$%. It doesn’t excuse my mistakes, but I’m holding out for grace. I’m holding out that Jesus took my sins onto the cross because I know who I am, and I hope I don’t have to depend on my own religiosity. The point of the death of Christ is that Christ took on the sins of the world so that what we put out did not come back to us, and that our sinful nature does not reap the obvious death. That’s the point. It should keep us humbled….its not our own good works that get through the gates of heaven… If only we could be a bit more like Him, the world would be transformed. All I do is get up on the cross of the ego; the bad hangover, the bad review. When I look at the cross of Christ, what I see up there is all my @#$% and everybody else’s. So I ask myself a question a lot of people have asked: Who is this man? And was He who He said He was, or was he just a religious nut? And there it is, and that’s the question. And no one can talk you into it or out of it.” Bono on the difference between Grace and Karma | Resistance & Renewal

What is grace? What is Karma? Are they compatible? Are they mutually exclusive?

Grace is extending mercy to someone that does not deserve it.
Karma, as I understand, is doing good in order for "good" to return to you. Also, doing bad under the "law" of Karma will result in "bad" returning to you.
Are they compatible? I do not believe they are compatible. Grace seems to be the opposite of Karma.
Are they mutually exclusive? Well, we do reap what we sow in this life (karma) in regards to secular, civil, and governmental aspects. We speed we get a ticket. We may see grace extended in the secular realm as well. However, in spiritual matters, I believe they do exclude each other. If one has to pay a debt, even if it is reduced, that person is still paying for, reaping what he has sown or has some "bad" karma returning to him. In contrast, grace pays the debt in full. No matter the amount of the debt, grace pays all of it.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sal View Post

I don't know

Karma is not bad or good. It is merely energy out via behaviour/thought/feeling...and like will draw like....always
can't say since I don't know what grace is but if it is by the Christian definition then I do not believe in its existence in that way although I do believe we resonate and have light (light is the absence of dark)

they would have to be

Sal, so couldn't you differentiate karma as good or bad though? Depending on what energy you sent out?
 
gerryh
+1
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by Motar View Post

There is nothing we have done, nor can ever do to earn this favor.


I'm curious, did you have to "earn" your Mother and Fathers favor?
 
Motar
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

I'm curious, did you have to "earn" your Mother and Fathers favor?

Yes and no, Gerry.
 
cj44
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

I'm curious, did you have to "earn" your Mother and Fathers favor?

Gerry: I think it began in the twentieth century - even earlier on that society began parsing the Word of God. They took all the grace and love God had to offer and forgot his judgement on mankind. They heard forgiveness, but glossed over the crucifixion of Christ. They stopped asking, Why did Christ die for me? Nowadays, to express that God is a Holy God that doesn't tolerate sin is a risky business. They began fashioning their own God - apathetic in regards to sin. We don't have to earn God's favor because he freely gave Christ to die for us. Understand that we didn't have his favor, he already judged that mankind was sinful. This view that mankind is the apple of God's eye is a gross error. It is true - for God so loved the world that he gave his only Son to die for us. But, I find this is glossed over and misinterpreted in this day and age. I think people imagine that God so loved the world because we sometimes make "mistakes" but really aren't so bad. That is not the case. God said:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.

That is what he thinks of sinful mankind. Then unimaginably he sends Christ to die for us to atone for our sin. That is GRACE, undeserved mercy. We should be mindful to understand what God actually did for us. First, we have to admit that we are sinful.
 
gerryh
+1
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by Motar View Post

Yes and no, Gerry.

explain, because I didn't have to earn mine. Even when I screwed up, I knew they still loved me and weren't bout to "condemn" me.

Are you suggesting that my Parents were more righteous, forgiving, and Loving then the Almighty Father?
 
Motar
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

I'm curious, did you have to "earn" your Mother and Fathers favor?

I was not favored with the family vehicle until I earned the right to operate it (driver's education, safe operation, driver's license, etc : )
 
Sal
+1
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by cj44 View Post

Sal, so couldn't you differentiate karma as good or bad though? Depending on what energy you sent out?

I do not differentiate. I view the world as ordered and unfolding as it should. For example; I lost my job after 23 years with a company. I was already semi-retired and had planned on staying on with that particular company until retirement. I left with nothing. Now it would appear as if I will have to work much longer past retirement age in fact. One could say that is bad karma, perhaps, but it is all about perception nothing more. I chose to see it as my time to move on, time for new growth, time to experience a different life style with new opportunities for struggle and personal growth. I want what is best for me and my vision does not allow me to know with certainty what is best for me down the road.

Personal growth is always a hard time. Last year was a hard year in many ways as there were many new life lessons to be experienced. It's not a joyful process at the time but it changes who we are, gives a new type of peace and assurance, helps us connect with new people in a different way.

So I strive to put out what I view as right, what I view as loving and what I see as the best choice at the time. It is the best I can do for who I am at the time. Doesn't mean I can't be better or do better but it is just where I am at. We don't grow on a smooth stretch. The smooth stretches are for sharing what we learn in the rough patches. The smooth stretches are opportunities to make life easier for those brought before us while life is peaceful.

It's always an adventure.

Does that answer your question CJ?
 
cj44
+1
#14
Sal, I see you are knit together with stability of mind and wisdom. Yes, you certainly did answer my question.
 
Cliffy
+1
#15
Karma is a much misunderstood concept. It is a natural law, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. But people put different twists on it (like everything else.) Some people believe in past life karma some in instant karma - you curse someone and then stub your toe on a rock. But all that is only relevant to those who do not take responsibility for creating their own reality. Yes, everything that we experience, we created with our thoughts, words and deeds. The difference from karma is that everything we experience and every person we encounter becomes a teaching, a life lesson to be learned.

To be in a state of Grace, is to be in one's center of their being, in a state of Love, connected with a sense of belonging to the Source, being part of the Love that permeates all of Creation (what some call god). Love is the energy that binds the Universe together. It flows through everything, sinners, saints, humans, animals and rocks. It is what creates order out of chaos and chaos out of order.

There is another principle that I have incorporated into my life, and that is: if you are feeling life is good, you are in your state of grace and if life is not harmonious, it is because you have strayed from your center, your purpose. This principle is like a barometer for whether or not you are in a state of grace. It allows for adjustment in ones thinking, believing and actions.
 
Motar
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by Motar View Post

“It’s a mind-blowing concept that the God who created the universe might be looking for company, a real relationship with people, but the thing that keeps me on my knees is the difference between grace and karma… You see, at the center of all religions is the idea of karma. You know, what you put out comes back to you; an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, or in physics – in physical laws – every action is met by an equal or opposite one. Its clear to me that karma is at the very heart of the universe. I’m absolutely sure of it. And yet, along comes this idea called grace to upend all that “As you reap, so will you sow” stuff. Bono on the difference between Grace and Karma | Resistance & Renewal

What Bono references as "karma", the Old Testament refers to as "the law":

"But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise." (Exodus 21-23-25 NIV)

"Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. The one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury. Whoever kills an animal must make restitution, but whoever kills a human being is to be put to death." (Leviticus 24:19-21 NIV)

"The rest of the people will hear of this and be afraid, and never again will such an evil thing be done among you. Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot." (Deuteronomy 19:20-21 NIV)

In Bono's estimation, grace upends karma (the law):

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you." (Matthew 5:38-42 NIV)

How is it that karma (the law) gives way to grace?

"For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." (John 1:17 NIV)
 
Sal
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by Motar View Post

What Bono references as "karma", the Old Testament refers to as "the law":

yes for it is the law of the universe, energy out draws energy back

Quote:

"But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise." (Exodus 21-23-25 NIV)

that is the measure, and is also a boundary that never more should be taken

Quote:

In Bono's estimation, grace upends karma (the law):

behaviorally that is the instruction for personal behaviour, according to Christ who brought a new law

a more civilized approach, one that society does not yet fully get and the extreme right like to ignore
 
Motar
+1
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by Sal View Post

yes for it is the law of the universe, energy out draws energy back...that is the measure, and is also a boundary that never more should be taken

"An eye for an eye will leave everyone blind." (M. K. Gandhi) An Eye for an Eye Will Make the Whole World Blind | Quote Investigator

So how does one leave karma (the law) behind and take up grace and truth?
 
gerryh
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by Motar View Post

What Bono references as "karma", the Old Testament refers to as "the law":

"But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise." (Exodus 21-23-25 NIV)

"Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. The one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury. Whoever kills an animal must make restitution, but whoever kills a human being is to be put to death." (Leviticus 24:19-21 NIV)

"The rest of the people will hear of this and be afraid, and never again will such an evil thing be done among you. Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot." (Deuteronomy 19:20-21 NIV)

In Bono's estimation, grace upends karma (the law):

“You have heard that it was said, Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you." (Matthew 5:38-42 NIV)

You have heard it was said, not, "my law used to be" or "in the past I have told you". "But I tell you" is direct. Christ is laying it on the line as to how we are supposed to treat each other. The "eye for an eye" was never an order from our Heavenly Father. It is another example of mankind interjecting our own "laws" and calling them God's.

Quote: Originally Posted by Motar View Post

"For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." (John 1:17 NIV)

Yup, I'm supposed to read this twerp eh? Once again bringing OT covenants into the NT when Christ brought a New covenant.
 
Sal
+2
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by Motar View Post

"An eye for an eye will leave everyone blind." (M. K. Gandhi) An Eye for an Eye Will Make the Whole World Blind | Quote Investigator

So how does one leave karma (the law) behind and take up grace and truth?

Well I come from a different perspective than you so for me it would be the more I seek to be honest with myself, lose ego, seek light and evolve further the easier it is to leave my darker more destructive behaviour behind. Base survival is an interesting built in mechanism to keep us alive and ego is a part of that.

For a Christian I imagine it would be the more they seek to be Christ like the less they would need the encumbrance of the law for they would naturally seek grace and a higher level of behaviour.

It's the same "type" of desire to be a better human being. But the path is different.
 
Motar
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

Are you suggesting that my Parents were more righteous, forgiving, and Loving then the Almighty Father?

No, Gerry. Are you?

Quote: Originally Posted by Motar View Post

So how does one leave karma (the law) behind and take up grace and truth?

Biographer Louis Fischer shares the conversion recipe of M. K. Gandhi:

"The shreds of individuality cannot be sewed together with a bayonet; nor can democracy be restored according to the Biblical injunction of an “eye for an eye” which, in the end, would make everybody blind. Any attempt to introduce democracy or to check totalitarianism must constantly emphasize the rehabilitation of personality. Freedom and responsibility help. Rigid authority hinders... Satyagraha is peaceful. If words fail to convince the adversary perhaps purity, humility, and honesty will. The opponent must be 'weaned from error by patience and sympathy,' weaned, not crushed; converted, not annihilated. Satyagraha is the exact opposite of the policy of an-eye-for-an-eye-for-an-eye-for-an-eye which ends in making everybody blind. You cannot inject new ideas into a man’s head by chopping it off; neither will you infuse a new spirit into his heart by piercing it with a dagger." An Eye for an Eye Will Make the Whole World Blind | Quote Investigator

Gandhi suggests that "personality rehabilitation" is at the heart of conversion, promoting satyagraha as the means to this end:

"Satyagraha can be understood as the vast inner strength required to perform nonviolent acts. Gandhi coined the word Satyagraha in 1908, meaning “clinging to truth” (Sanskrit)..." Satyagraha - Metta Center

In summary, in an environment of freedom and a spirit of responsibility, an individual may respond to peaceful purity, humility, honesty, patience and sympathy on the part of a truthful witness.

Where does one find such circumstances and witnesses?
Last edited by Motar; Feb 2nd, 2014 at 01:02 PM..
 
Cliffy
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by Motar View Post

Gandhi suggests that "personality rehabilitation" is at the heart of conversion, promoting satyagraha as the means to this end:

"Satyagraha can be understood as the vast inner strength required to perform nonviolent acts. Gandhi coined the word Satyagraha in 1908, meaning “clinging to truth” (Sanskrit)..." Satyagraha - Metta Center

In summary, in an environment of freedom and a spirit of responsibility, an individual may respond to peaceful purity, humility, honesty, patience and sympathy on the part of a truthful witness.

Where does one find such circumstances and witnesses?

All over the planet. People are a product of their environment. The truth is everywhere, not just in the bible and good people are those who have found peace within themselves and their beliefs. Being good is a choice and many people have witnessed this with their own eyes, have seen the glory of Love manifest if the actions of all living beings, not just humans.

350-Pound Lion and Tiny Dog are ADORABLE Best Friends! - Cute Videos
 
Dexter Sinister
+1
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by Motar View Post

What is grace? What is Karma?

I know of no reason to think either of them exist as they're usually defined. Grace as god's unmerited favour... to an atheist that's pretty much incoherent. Karma as the "what goes around comes around" idea has some merit in a fairly trivial sense, in that if you're rude and nasty to people you're likely to get it back, and if you're nice to people they're more likely to be nice to you, but to think there's some spiritual force in the cosmos that's evening things out, nope, no reason to think there's any such thing.
 
Motar
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by Motar View Post

Gandhi suggests that "personality rehabilitation" is at the heart of conversion, promoting satyagraha as the means to this end: "Satyagraha can be understood as the vast inner strength required to perform nonviolent acts. Gandhi coined the word Satyagraha in 1908, meaning “clinging to truth” (Sanskrit)..." Satyagraha - Metta Center

In summary, in an environment of freedom and a spirit of responsibility, an individual may respond to peaceful purity, humility, honesty, patience and sympathy on the part of a truthful witness. Where does one find such circumstances and witnesses?

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” (Matthew 11:28-30 NIV)
 
cj44
#25
Cliffy, thanks for your clarification on Karma.
 
Cliffy
+1
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by cj44 View Post

Cliffy, thanks for your clarification on Karma.

You're welcome, but that is a Readers Digest of the topic. I do not think that karma is the same as the Hindus see it nor is reincarnation.
 
Motar
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

Yup, I'm supposed to read this twerp eh? Once again bringing OT covenants into the NT when Christ brought a New covenant.

By the term "twerp", do you refer to Moses, Jesus or John, Gerry?

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:17-20 NIV)

To what "law" and "prophets" does Jesus refer in the preceding passage?
 
cj44
+1
#28
"To what "law" and "prophets" does Jesus refer in the preceding passage?"
The 10 commandments/moral laws and the teachings/revelations of the prophets - all prophets including Moses. Jesus did not come to invalidate the law/10 commandments. Jesus emphasizes deeper understanding of what the law actually requires. "I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell-fire." This is proper understanding of the commandment "Thou shalt not murder."

Christ affirms that the Law shall be retained - he has not come to do away with the law. People may think they are accepted by God because they have never murdered anyone. In this sense, people mistakenly imagine they are able to keep the 10 commandments. Christ's teaching is radically different. According to Christ's expository, everyone feels (or certainly should) feel the weight of the law on their conscience. Suddenly, they see that they too are sinners.
 
Dexter Sinister
+1
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by cj44 View Post

According to Christ's expository, everyone feels (or certainly should) feel the weight of the law on their conscience. Suddenly, they see that they too are sinners.

That's one of the key points that stops me. Well, actually two of them.

First, the law as laid out in the Old Testament is pretty nasty. It includes prescriptions that are criminal offenses in any civilized society, like stoning a stubborn and rebellious son to death, stoning adulterers to death, killing people who work on the Sabbath, wear clothes made of two different kinds of fibres, plant two different crops in the same field and, as Sam Harris pointed out, mandate savage penalties for imaginary crimes. There are 613 such rules according to the rabbinical tradition, mostly laid out in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, and they describe an extraordinarily brutal totalitarian society.

Second, the claim that I'm a sinner through no fault of my own but due to the errors of (fictional) people who supposedly lived thousands of generations ago seems to me not simply stupid, but actively wicked, as does the followup claim that a single human sacrifice is the way out of that. Stripped of its religious niceties and mystical overtones, the story is that a talking serpent duped a gullible woman into eating the fruit of a magic tree, she duped her equally gullible partner into eating it too, and as a result we all have an evil spell on our souls that can be magically removed only if we accept the efficacy of a brutal human sacrifice, believe the right things, and follow the proper rituals.

It eludes me how any thinking person can buy a story like that.
 
L Gilbert
+1
#30
IMO, karma = what goes around comes around so if someone's a nasty piece of work, people are likely to return it to him/her.
Grace to me is being coordinated enough not to trip over your own feet.
 

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