The future of Canada through immigration


Canucker
#1
Hello. I found this article which relates to Canada and I'm a little concerned about what Canada's future will bring to the people who were here for generations and the cultural makeup of the country.

This is what is happening in the UK and Canada's on the exact same road.

Quote:

Whites will be an ethnic minority in Britain by the end of the century. Analysis of official figures indicate that, at current fertility rates and levels of immigration, there will be more non-whites than whites by 2100.

It would be the first time in history that a major indigenous population has voluntarily become a minority, rather than through war, famine or disease. Whites will be a minority in London by 2010.

In the early 1950s there were only a few tens of thousands of non-whites in the UK. By 1991 that had risen to 3 million - 6 per cent of the population. The population of ethnic minorities has been growing at between 2 and 4 per cent a year. Net immigration has been running at record levels, with 185,000 newcomers last year.

Government forecasts suggest that immigration on its own will be responsible for half the growth of the British population over the next couple of decades.

New immigrants, who are on average younger than the population at large, also tend to have higher fertility rates. In contrast, the population of white British citizens is static. Their fertility rate is very low - at under 2 children per woman - and there is overall emigration of British citizens.

The analysis of the figures showed that if the population of ethnic minorities grows at 4 per cent a year, whites will become a minority before 2100. The demographer who made the calculation wished to remain anonymous for fear of accusations of racism.

guardian.co.uk



Will Canada be predominately moslem/african/asian and foreign in the next decades? Living in Toronto, the city has become progressively worse in terms of crime, urban decay, disappearance of good neighbourhoods being replaced by less desirable areas and the list goes on. With the exception of an odd trip to cottage country, it already feels unsafe and unfamiliar to me. Not to talk about that due to mass immigration, driving on city streets is nearly impossible.

If the United Kingdom becomes non-white in the upcoming decades, and the chaces of that are very high, where will the millions of Canadians who call their ancestry British call their homeland? Canada and the UK as we known them would have been wiped out.

If Canada and the UK both become 'foreign countries', have we already sealed our culture/race/history's fate?

Quote:

Another more recent and conservative criticism, based largely upon the Nordic and Canadian experience, is presented by the administrative scientist Gunnar K. A. Njalsson, who views multiculturalism as a utopian ideology with a simplistic and overly optimistic view of human nature, the same weakness he attributes to communism, anarchism, and many strains of liberalism. According to Njalsson, multiculturalism is particular to a western urban environment and cannot survive as an ideology outside it. Some variants of multiculturalism, he believes, may equip non-egalitarian cultural groups with power and influence. This, in turn, may alter the value system of the larger society. This realist criticism of multiculturalism maintains that in Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the US, multiculturalism may aggravate a situation where old-stock families are not permitted by the countries of their forebearers to consider themselves English, French, Scandinavian, etc., while newer arrivals can claim two or more national identities.


from wikipedia

If multiculturalism can only exist in liberal western societies, how will it survive when the new majority of the population is still essentially keeping to their old cultures which Canada encourages? It's not a immature guesstimate to assume that when Canada's multi-cultures outpace the mainstream, that they will want autonomy from what used to be the mainstream.

What will be the future of Canada and our way of life? I can't see anything good coming from it and UK, Canada will no longer be what we know them to be; British and Canadian.
 
sanch
#2
Quote: Originally Posted by Canucker

Hello. I found this article which relates to Canada and I'm a little concerned about what Canada's future will bring to the people who were here for generations and the cultural makeup of the country.

This is what is happening in the UK and Canada's on the exact same road.

Quote:

Whites will be an ethnic minority in Britain by the end of the century. Analysis of official figures indicate that, at current fertility rates and levels of immigration, there will be more non-whites than whites by 2100.

It would be the first time in history that a major indigenous population has voluntarily become a minority, rather than through war, famine or disease. Whites will be a minority in London by 2010.

In the early 1950s there were only a few tens of thousands of non-whites in the UK. By 1991 that had risen to 3 million - 6 per cent of the population. The population of ethnic minorities has been growing at between 2 and 4 per cent a year. Net immigration has been running at record levels, with 185,000 newcomers last year.

Government forecasts suggest that immigration on its own will be responsible for half the growth of the British population over the next couple of decades.

New immigrants, who are on average younger than the population at large, also tend to have higher fertility rates. In contrast, the population of white British citizens is static. Their fertility rate is very low - at under 2 children per woman - and there is overall emigration of British citizens.

The analysis of the figures showed that if the population of ethnic minorities grows at 4 per cent a year, whites will become a minority before 2100. The demographer who made the calculation wished to remain anonymous for fear of accusations of racism.

guardian.co.uk



Will Canada be predominately moslem/african/asian and foreign in the next decades? Living in Toronto, the city has become progressively worse in terms of crime, urban decay, disappearance of good neighbourhoods being replaced by less desirable areas and the list goes on. With the exception of an odd trip to cottage country, it already feels unsafe and unfamiliar to me. Not to talk about that due to mass immigration, driving on city streets is nearly impossible.

If the United Kingdom becomes non-white in the upcoming decades, and the chaces of that are very high, where will the millions of Canadians who call their ancestry British call their homeland? Canada and the UK as we known them would have been wiped out.

If Canada and the UK both become 'foreign countries', have we already sealed our culture/race/history's fate?

Quote:

Another more recent and conservative criticism, based largely upon the Nordic and Canadian experience, is presented by the administrative scientist Gunnar K. A. Njalsson, who views multiculturalism as a utopian ideology with a simplistic and overly optimistic view of human nature, the same weakness he attributes to communism, anarchism, and many strains of liberalism. According to Njalsson, multiculturalism is particular to a western urban environment and cannot survive as an ideology outside it. Some variants of multiculturalism, he believes, may equip non-egalitarian cultural groups with power and influence. This, in turn, may alter the value system of the larger society. This realist criticism of multiculturalism maintains that in Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the US, multiculturalism may aggravate a situation where old-stock families are not permitted by the countries of their forebearers to consider themselves English, French, Scandinavian, etc., while newer arrivals can claim two or more national identities.


from wikipedia

If multiculturalism can only exist in liberal western societies, how will it survive when the new majority of the population is still essentially keeping to their old cultures which Canada encourages? It's not a immature guesstimate to assume that when Canada's multi-cultures outpace the mainstream, that they will want autonomy from what used to be the mainstream.

What will be the future of Canada and our way of life? I can't see anything good coming from it and UK, Canada will no longer be what we know them to be; British and Canadian.

I have just spent about 7 weeks in Canada split between Montreal and the Toronto area. There are two very different systems of diversity emerging in Canada.

Montreal is more like the US in that what is gradually being cultivated is a healthy model of inclusion. There will still probably be ethnic dissent and some terrorist sympathizers in Montreal but on a minor scale compared to Toronto and Europe.

I also spent about a week at a conference hotel in Mississauga. There were quite a lot of government meetings at the hotel and the first thing I noticed was that the participants were almost all white. One did see diversity at the hotel during the evening when different ethnic groups arrived to have their cultural fairs and meetings. This is the kind of system that is spawning home grown terrorists in Great Britain. Itís basically a quasi-apartheid system. To encourage this form of ethnic segmentation the government gives money to cultural, community and religious organizations where the most radical members of any given group are waiting to absorb it.

In response to the thread, as Torontoís ethnic groups grow in size and retain their traditional cultural mores they will either try and threaten the system or take it over. There is no option of real assimilation in the Toronto area because the system encourages and finances fragmentation.
 
tamarin
#3
Multiculturalism is a nightmare and it's just begun. Social science wonks and well organized lefties have implanted it throughout the western world. All part of this global community nonsense that permeates the forums they attend. There's a big penalty to be paid in the years ahead. And as we begin to realize how stupid the whole experience has been I predict some barbarous riots and a lynch mentality run amok on the streets. Canada will be amongst the hardest hit.
 
Kreskin
#4
Welcome to the board.

My feelings are, with a negative death/birth rate we need new immigrants for growth. While we can manage the #s a little closer or wiser we will inevitably be a changed society.

My concern is, if the ruling majority can decide/legislate how we look as a culture we will eventually succumb to it with bigger problems. I shake my head when I see things like the US right trying to change a constitution over a marriage issue. If that generation can determine rights by a legislative vote what will that look like generations from now? Do we want the majority in 100 years changing our constitution? If we don't then we better ensure it is strengthened not weakened. I'm a big proponent on the majority not having the ability to vote in/out cultures, individual rights etc. Those precedents aren't the ones we need future generations pointing to as justification for majority rule on constitutional rights.

Actions that we might take today to try and curb multi-culturalism are the precedents that could come back to bite, as I believe the population demographic changes will be inevitable no matter what.
 
sanch
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by tamarin

Multiculturalism is a nightmare and it's just begun. Social science wonks and well organized lefties have implanted it throughout the western world. All part of this global community nonsense that permeates the forums they attend. There's a big penalty to be paid in the years ahead. And as we begin to realize how stupid the whole experience has been I predict some barbarous riots and a lynch mentality run amok on the streets. Canada will be amongst the hardest hit.

The conservatives are using and promoting the same multicultural system with apologies to the Chinese and the flight to Cyprus as well as Harper's very different announcements to Quebec and Ontario.

But it is largely a liberal invention. It is government though that has turned it into a patronage system that rewards the more radical elements in these groups.
 
Psyrus1
#6
I think the biggest mistake here is assuming this is a matter of whites vs. minorities, too.

I'm Black, but my family line has been in Canada now for nearly 150 years. That said, I overwhelmingly agree that our culture of multiculturalism is absolute insanity, as it seems to be a codword for "it's okay to be racist--as long as you're not white!"

Black girl openly expresses that she only wants to date a black guy, we applaud her for "preserving her culture"

East Indian family only allows their daughter to date indian men, we applaud them for "preserving their heritage.

White family tells their daughter to only date white men. Prompty thrown onto Maury Pauvich show as freaks.

That said, I'm also not sure how effective it is to just call globalization a crazy leftist ploy. it's a crazy right wing ploy too, because ignoring cultural differences is just as much in the interest of big business as captain communist. It also doesn't really seem to present a solution....we will lose jobs to the east and the south, our population will be eclipsed by comparative birth rates between western nations and the south/east, and there's not a damn thing we can do about either.

So the next question becomes...what will be the ramification of different approaches taken? would american style assimilation work? what about several european country's "learn our language, mingle, inter-marry, or go home" approach?

Looking forward to interesting discussion here.
 
tracy
#7
I lived in Toronto for 2 years and didn't see such a terrible city like some people see. I lived in a pretty mixed area. My neighbours were Korean, Arab, Greek, Russian, Yougoslavian, etc. I never felt unsafe walking around alone at night. There was little violent crime. Compare that to the US. Without multiculturalism as government policy, we have much more crime. Blaming multiculturalism for everything seems pretty simplistic to me. I think Canadians complain about crime in Toronto because they've never lived in places like LA or NY or Detroit or Atlanta.

Personally, I don't care about the race thing. I'm sure I am a minority down here as a white person and it hasn't hurt me one bit. I'm sure I was a minority in Toronto. Again, it didn't hurt me one bit. I really think white people complaining about this are just fear mongers and their ideas border on racist to me. The UK is already not the country it once was. No country stays the same over time. The land, the religions, the system of government have all changed tremendously in the last 500 years. Why should race be the one thing we try to keep the same? Canada certainly isn't the same either. At least us white people don't have to worry about the new immigrants killing us off like our white ancestors did to the natives.

If you hate the idea of a declining white population so much, start knocking up some white women. I'm not going to be one of them though. My own mother hasn't been able to guilt me into procreating, so pleas to pass my aryan genes on to the next generation aren't going to do it either.
 
sanch
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by Psyrus1

I think the biggest mistake here is assuming this is a matter of whites vs. minorities, too.

Black girl openly expresses that she only wants to date a black guy, we applaud her for "preserving her culture"

East Indian family only allows their daughter to date indian men, we applaud them for "preserving their heritage.

Hi Psyrus
This is the system of cultural relativism in action. The system of multiculturalism could never survive without these internal attitudes of distinction. Funding and recognizing the extremist elements promotes this kind of preferential group talk.

This kind of group talk is very destructive to white/minorioty dialog.

Quote:

So the next question becomes...what will be the ramification of different approaches taken? would american style assimilation work? what about several european country's "learn our language, mingle, inter-marry, or go home" approach?

What European countries are you referring to?

My vote is to the US model.

I to wish the gay marriage issue would be resolved. But one has to remember that the marriage law has not impeded upward mobility and social recognition for gays in the US. I know a lot of very rich and prominent gays. Still they should be allowed to marry.
 
tracy
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by Psyrus1

I think the biggest mistake here is assuming this is a matter of whites vs. minorities, too.

I'm Black, but my family line has been in Canada now for nearly 150 years. That said, I overwhelmingly agree that our culture of multiculturalism is absolute insanity, as it seems to be a codword for "it's okay to be racist--as long as you're not white!"

Black girl openly expresses that she only wants to date a black guy, we applaud her for "preserving her culture"

East Indian family only allows their daughter to date indian men, we applaud them for "preserving their heritage.

White family tells their daughter to only date white men. Prompty thrown onto Maury Pauvich show as freaks.
.

I think that's a really good point. Double standards are stupid. I think immigrants should have to learn English or French and integrate into society. I've met a lot of immigrants who were very keen on their kids being "real Canadians".

That doesn't mean they can't keep their cultural traditions though (and that's what I would consider multiculturalism). I don't think it's the government's job to regulate culture. Plus, who wants to see things like Carabana end? I really enjoy Cinqo de Mayo down here too.
 
Psyrus1
#10
Well..as I say...its so easy to construe this conversation into "he's a racist! she's a racist!" and its so ridiculous.

Real racism is excusing reverse racism, which is the real catalyst of discrimination and conflict (at least in today's world).

And germany, at least at last exploration, has a "learn german or leave" policy if you don't intergrate into society within, I believge, 24 months.
 
sanch
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by tracy

I lived in Toronto for 2 years and didn't see such a terrible city like some people see. I lived in a pretty mixed area. My neighbours were Korean, Arab, Greek, Russian, Yougoslavian, etc. I never felt unsafe walking around alone at night. There was little violent crime. Compare that to the US. Without multiculturalism as government policy, we have much more crime. Blaming multiculturalism for everything seems pretty simplistic to me. I think Canadians complain about crime in Toronto because they've never lived in places like LA or NY or Detroit or Atlanta.

It is probably easier for whites to live among other ethnic groups than for members of these groups to move into exclusive white domains.

You might explain how you define multiculturalism?
 
tamarin
#12
Sanch, the Conservatives have bought in hoping to direct the Liberal vote trough their way. It was precisely the Liberal attitude that the party not only governs but owns the country that precipitated the nonsense. Canada is viewed as a vast dumping ground for future Liberal voters and it must rile the Libs to see the Conservatives jostling for position.
 
Canucker
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by tracy

Personally, I don't care about the race thing. I'm sure I am a minority down here as a white person and it hasn't hurt me one bit. I'm sure I was a minority in Toronto. Again, it didn't hurt me one bit. I really think white people complaining about this are just fear mongers and their ideas border on racist to me. The UK is already not the country it once was. No country stays the same over time. The land, the religions, the system of government have all changed tremendously in the last 500 years. Why should race be the one thing we try to keep the same? Canada certainly isn't the same either. At least us white people don't have to worry about the new immigrants killing us off like our white ancestors did to the natives.

Actually being anti-multiculturalism is not racist when you consider the fact that replacing a ethnic population with a different ethnic population is considered genocide under the United Nations convention on genocide.. So my argument would be the opposite of racist, no?

Psyrus1 is right. Its ok to be racist if you're not white, but if you make any comments or have any opinions which are not in the favour of a certain race being a white person, it's racist.
 
Canucker
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by sanch

Quote: Originally Posted by tracy

I lived in Toronto for 2 years and didn't see such a terrible city like some people see. I lived in a pretty mixed area. My neighbours were Korean, Arab, Greek, Russian, Yougoslavian, etc. I never felt unsafe walking around alone at night. There was little violent crime. Compare that to the US. Without multiculturalism as government policy, we have much more crime. Blaming multiculturalism for everything seems pretty simplistic to me. I think Canadians complain about crime in Toronto because they've never lived in places like LA or NY or Detroit or Atlanta.

It is probably easier for whites to live among other ethnic groups than for members of these groups to move into exclusive white domains.

You might explain how you define multiculturalism?

Sorry for a double post, but I would expressly disagree. Western societies are forced left-wing tolerance routines but most of the rest of the world is overwhelming conservative in that regard. Somebody from India could come to Canada with $1000 in his pockets and get along but a white westerner wouldn't survive with the same situation but reversed.

The only westerners living in such countries are usually business people with a lot of money or people with organizational backing (such as the UN or Redcross, Worldvision, etc).
 
tamarin
#15
The full implications of sustained immigration to build a multicultural society should have been fully vetted by the Trudeau Liberals who introduced the push. I can't see any society willingly giving up its traditional make-up - in our case, white European - without a full review of what that means. We're starting to find out. Immigration should be targeted to maintain one's existing ethnic groupings and enrich them, not overthrow them. As will happen eventually here if the initiated trends stay in place. There should be open dialogue on this and not squeaks from the 'you're a hater' gallery.
 
tracy
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by sanch

Quote: Originally Posted by tracy

I lived in Toronto for 2 years and didn't see such a terrible city like some people see. I lived in a pretty mixed area. My neighbours were Korean, Arab, Greek, Russian, Yougoslavian, etc. I never felt unsafe walking around alone at night. There was little violent crime. Compare that to the US. Without multiculturalism as government policy, we have much more crime. Blaming multiculturalism for everything seems pretty simplistic to me. I think Canadians complain about crime in Toronto because they've never lived in places like LA or NY or Detroit or Atlanta.

It is probably easier for whites to live among other ethnic groups than for members of these groups to move into exclusive white domains.

You might explain how you define multiculturalism?

Maybe it is. I've never felt unwelcome as a white person.

I'd just define multiculturalism as being able to maintain your cultural identity while becoming a Canadian. To me it means you don't have to renounce your heritage and emulate the British to become one of us. Certainly people won't be able to keep EVERYTHING about their old culture here in Canada (wife beating may be acceptable elsewhere, but it's still illegal in Canada, racism is acceptable elsewhere but should not be here in Canada, etc). But, if they want to continue going to temple rather than church or celebrate Ramadan rather than Xmas, I really don't see the problem. I've already thrown 2 Canadian Thanksgiving parties down here and no one has complained about it yet, so even Americans are pretty tolerant
 
Canucker
#17
Hey tamarin. If it was never to be approved by the Canadian people, why was it even implemented in the first place and why is it still continuing? That's far from what I would call a real democracy especially if its against common sense.

Maybe the Canadian government should have promoted birth rates and offered incentives to new families in order to cope with a face-paced society. That surely would come to somebody's mind before an idea about opening the borders to anybody that wants to come in; infact promoting entry to people who aren't westerners and compatible with Canadian society.

The whole country, especially urban areas, are just fragments of foreign countries with no real uniform Canadian identity or culture.

Is that what we want our whole country to be in the future? Its certainly not my idea.


Also whats the talk about thousands of Canadians living in Lebanon requirng evacuation? Its only a small peice of the pie right now and a tiny consequence compared to other things which may happen.
 
tamarin
#18
"The whole country, especially urban areas, are just fragments of foreign countries with no real uniform Canadian identity or culture."

Exactly. I've lived within an hour and a half of Toronto all my life and the change has been huge when visiting there. There is a real sense of tribalism, ghettoization - choose what term you will - and little sense that the city is anything but nominally Canadian.
And this change has happened rapidly. What lies ahead for a country that openly invites difference and separation within its borders? We'll get what we deserve.
 
tracy
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by Canucker

Quote: Originally Posted by tracy

Personally, I don't care about the race thing. I'm sure I am a minority down here as a white person and it hasn't hurt me one bit. I'm sure I was a minority in Toronto. Again, it didn't hurt me one bit. I really think white people complaining about this are just fear mongers and their ideas border on racist to me. The UK is already not the country it once was. No country stays the same over time. The land, the religions, the system of government have all changed tremendously in the last 500 years. Why should race be the one thing we try to keep the same? Canada certainly isn't the same either. At least us white people don't have to worry about the new immigrants killing us off like our white ancestors did to the natives.

Actually being anti-multiculturalism is not racist when you consider the fact that replacing a ethnic population with a different ethnic population is considered genocide under the United Nations convention on genocide.. So my argument would be the opposite of racist, no?

Psyrus1 is right. Its ok to be racist if you're not white, but if you make any comments or have any opinions which are not in the favour of a certain race being a white person, it's racist.

I expressely said I think reverse racism is wrong too. I don't hold a double standard on this issue. Can you show me where anyone on this thread said reverse racism is ok? I might have missed it, but I don't see it. My feelings about certain ethnic groups wanting to keep their neighbourhoods to one ethnicity are no different. I think it's silly.I'm not calling you racist so there is no need to defend yourself.

To put our immigration policies in the same sentence as genocide is ridiculous . Genocide is the intentional destruction of one group. Immigration of coloured people is not genocide. It's the only possible outcome for white countries that have declining birth rates. We need immigration to survive. Like it or not, whites ARE a minority in the world and many white countries' citizens have little incentive to immigrate to Canada. That means that we're going to get a lot of coloured people. We've had a good run, but we couldn't keep the empire going forever. No civilisation remains unchanged. Our traditions are only a small snapshot in the history of the world. There were other cultures before us in Canada and there will be others after us. I don't know how similar I am to white Canadians from 1867, so I'm not particularly worried that Canadians in 2067 will be different from me.
 
Canucker
#20
Tracy: Sorry it was not my intention to put words into your mouth. This is a very tricky and sticky situation we have here so treading lightly is advised.

With respect, I don't agree with you that this country needs immigrants. Populations can never be on the increase and this earth cannot hold many more people. Again, Canada does not need more immigrants to sustain our way of life. I believe that is a myth propagated by people with an agenda (I'm not suggesting you have an agenda).

Infact, I think its healthy for Canada and the rest of the world to experience a population decline.

Quote:

To put our immigration policies in the same sentence as genocide is ridiculous Laughing .

Its there in black and white. To replace an ethnic population with a different ethnic population IS genocide. White flight is alive and well across the country, especially in urban and suburban areas.
 
tracy
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by tamarin

"The whole country, especially urban areas, are just fragments of foreign countries with no real uniform Canadian identity or culture."

Exactly. I've lived within an hour and a half of Toronto all my life and the change has been huge when visiting there. There is a real sense of tribalism, ghettoization - choose what term you will - and little sense that the city is anything but nominally Canadian.
And this change has happened rapidly. What lies ahead for a country that openly invites difference and separation within its borders? We'll get what we deserve.

Living in the city I didn't feel that way. When I went to work, there were nurses and docs and patients from around the world. When I was there we had a couple sets of parents who wanted to pick the ethnicity of their baby's nurses and they were quickly shot down, one with the (Jamaican born) charge nurse telling them "This is Canada. If you want to have only nurses from your country, you're gonna have to go back there!". Especially when SARS happened, people seemed to have a real community attitude. I used to volunteer at immigrant services doing English classes and met a lot of people very eager to be "real" Canadians. My neighbour was thrilled when I told her I learned In Flanders' Fields in school and her son was learning it too because that made it something "real" Canadians did.

Most neighbourhoods in Toronto have already gone through at least a couple of cultural takeovers. My neighbourhood was originally really Eastern-European, then some Greeks, some Portugese, then the Koreans, then the Arabs. They are all there today along with many other groups. I used to alternate felafel, goulash and Korean BBQ for takeout. It's only natural for groups to first settle among like people for practical reasons (language, family, religion) but that changes over time. Their children will be able to integrate much more than they could. The Chinese didn't all stay in Chinatown and the Greeks ventured out from the Danforth. My Dutch grandma's family moved to a Menonite community cause they were Menonite and didn't want to integrate with any godless heathens. Well of my aunts and uncles and cousins, none of them still live in that community and none of them speak Dutch well if at all. I don't see why things will be so different today.
 
sanch
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by tracy


I'd just define multiculturalism as being able to maintain your cultural identity while becoming a Canadian. To me it means you don't have to renounce your heritage and emulate the British to become one of us. Certainly people won't be able to keep EVERYTHING about their old culture here in Canada (wife beating may be acceptable elsewhere, but it's still illegal in Canada, racism is acceptable elsewhere but should not be here in Canada, etc). But, if they want to continue going to temple rather than church or celebrate Ramadan rather than Xmas, I really don't see the problem. I've already thrown 2 Canadian Thanksgiving parties down here and no one has complained about it yet, so even Americans are pretty tolerant

This is probably the primary reason multiculturalism was implemented and I have no problem with the cultural identity part.

1) But at some point politicans recognized that this system of diversity could be used to deliver the vote. It is easier and much more strategic to pay certain influential individuals to recruit their fellow members. In return politicans provided money,not for the innocuous system of cultural preservation you describe, but as a reward for a political favour. This was done through the cultural and community grants system.

2) Also as immigration has increased many radicals and militants have joined the tide. These are individuals who are more heavily involved in cultural affairs and religious life and so they became the political motivators and gatekeepers for their respective groups.

One cannot understand Canadian multiculturalism without points 1 & 2. It is basically the same system of colonial management the British used in India.
 
tracy
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by Canucker

Tracy: Sorry it was not my intention to put words into your mouth. This is a very tricky and sticky situation we have here so treading lightly is advised.

With respect, I don't agree with you that this country needs immigrants. Populations can never be on the increase and this earth cannot hold many more people. Again, Canada does not need more immigrants to sustain our way of life. I believe that is a myth propagated by people with an agenda (I'm not suggesting you have an agenda).

Infact, I think its healthy for Canada and the rest of the world to experience a population decline.

Quote:

To put our immigration policies in the same sentence as genocide is ridiculous Laughing .

Its there in black and white. To replace an ethnic population with a different ethnic population IS genocide. White flight is alive and well across the country, especially in urban and suburban areas.

Don't worry, I'm not offended at all. It takes a lot to actually do that

If we don't need immigration, how do you think the older generation is going to be cared for? Society can't care for them without having enough workers. The country's economy needs workers/consumers/tax payers or the whole thing comes to a halt. CPP comes from tax money.

Genocide is the INTENTIONAL replacement of one ethnic group by another. There is no way the UN would say a bunch of different ethnic groups (cause coloured people are from some VERY different groups) legally moving to a traditionally white area is genocide. White flight is really more about wealth than race IMO. Bad urban areas won't keep prosperous members of their predominant ethnic group either. White people will still be drawn to urban areas for good jobs. When I go back to Canada, it will be to Toronto or Vancouver not a whiter area because the employment and educational opportunities for me there can't be beat. Plus, I'd be bored stiff if I ever moved back to my hometown
 
tracy
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by sanch

Quote: Originally Posted by tracy


I'd just define multiculturalism as being able to maintain your cultural identity while becoming a Canadian. To me it means you don't have to renounce your heritage and emulate the British to become one of us. Certainly people won't be able to keep EVERYTHING about their old culture here in Canada (wife beating may be acceptable elsewhere, but it's still illegal in Canada, racism is acceptable elsewhere but should not be here in Canada, etc). But, if they want to continue going to temple rather than church or celebrate Ramadan rather than Xmas, I really don't see the problem. I've already thrown 2 Canadian Thanksgiving parties down here and no one has complained about it yet, so even Americans are pretty tolerant

This is probably the primary reason multiculturalism was implemented and I have no problem with the cultural identity part.

1) But at some point politicans recognized that this system of diversity could be used to deliver the vote. It is easier and much more strategic to pay certain influential individuals to recruit their fellow members. In return politicans provided money,not for the innocuous system of cultural preservation you describe, but as a reward for a political favour. This was done through the cultural and community grants system.

2) Also as immigration has increased many radicals and militants have joined the tide. These are individuals who are more heavily involved in cultural affairs and religious life and so they became the political motivators and gatekeepers for their respective groups.

One cannot understand Canadian multiculturalism without points 1 & 2. It is basically the same system of colonial management the British used in India.

And I have no problem dealing with those. That's not to say that I think multiculturalism as a whole is wrong or that it's a threat to me as a white Canadian. Radicalism needs to be dealt with, especially in today's world. That can only be done with the community.
 
tracy
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by Canucker


Maybe the Canadian government should have promoted birth rates and offered incentives to new families in order to cope with a face-paced society. .

Quebec has done that for some time and it just isn't enough. No government incentive could make me give birth to a child if it isn't something I want to do. That's a life changing event that should only be reserved for the truly comitted, not those looking to get a couple of bucks out of the government.
 
Canucker
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by tracy

If we don't need immigration, how do you think the older generation is going to be cared for? Society can't care for them without having enough workers. The country's economy needs workers/consumers/tax payers or the whole thing comes to a halt. CPP comes from tax money.

Tracy, again, I don't think its true to say that with our current population levels that we really need to invite more people to come and build this country. The answer to caring for our elderly is science and medicine. Both Canada and the United States are disallowing breakthrough drugs and research (such as stem-cell research) which could mean the world for so many Canadians. I think we can all agree that Canada's healthcare system is in need of some help.

Additionally, immigrants from Africa and Asia aren't helping the healthcare system when they bring deadly diseases with them. This is not racism, but its true. Think about how SARS or HIV got to North America.

Quote: Originally Posted by tracy

Genocide is the INTENTIONAL replacement of one ethnic group by another. There is no way the UN would say a bunch of different ethnic groups (cause coloured people are from some VERY different groups) legally moving to a traditionally white area is genocide. White flight is really more about wealth than race IMO. Bad urban areas won't keep prosperous members of their predominant ethnic group either. White people will still be drawn to urban areas for good jobs. When I go back to Canada, it will be to Toronto or Vancouver not a whiter area.

Our government is intentially inviting people to come to the country. The Canadian people were never asked, and if they were the answer would have been a definate no.

White flight is not rich people moving out of the area. They may be a small group, but from personal experience with family and friends, they move because of the crime and the pure rapid change Canadian cities are going through in terms of crime and ethnic makeup thanks to immigration. Thats why my folks moved 200km north of Toronto. I know their friends have also done the same. Infact, there's nobody left that I know from my childhood that has stayed in the city. Certainly none of them are wealthy people.

Do the cities Barrie, Newmarket, Midland, Muskoka, Oakville and Holland Landing come to mind?

Edit: Sorry, forgot to include Collingwood. These are all personal examples of people I know who are white and fled.


Edit again: A little off-topic: I'd like to commend the Canadian government in its iniatives in it's non-smoking campaigns.
 
tracy
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by Canucker


Tracy, again, I don't think its true to say that with our current population levels that we really need to invite more people to come and build this country. The answer to caring for our elderly is science and medicine. Both Canada and the United States are disallowing breakthrough drugs and research (such as stem-cell research) which could mean the world for so many Canadians. I think we can all agree that Canada's healthcare system is in need of some help.

Additionally, immigrants from Africa and Asia aren't helping the healthcare system when they bring deadly diseases with them. This is not racism, but its true. Think about how SARS or HIV got to North America.
Our government is intentially inviting people to come to the country. The Canadian people were never asked, and if they were the answer would have been a definate no.

White flight is not rich people moving out of the area. They may be a small group, but from personal experience with family and friends, they move because of the crime and the pure rapid change Canadian cities are going through in terms of crime and ethnic makeup thanks to immigration. Thats why my folks moved 200km north of Toronto. I know their friends have also done the same. Infact, there's nobody left that I know from my childhood that has stayed in the city. Certainly none of them are wealthy people.

Health care needs help, trust me I know (I'm a nurse). But who pays for healthcare? Tax payers. Old people don't work and they use a TREMENDOUS amount of services in the healthcare system. The majority of the health care resources that are spent on Canadians are spent in the months right before their deaths. That can't be paid for unless we have younger, healthier, working Canadians to foot the bill. A country with more retirees than workers can't survive unless the retirees are willing to give up their benefits (like pensions and healthcare). Plus, healthcare needs workers. Canada is incapable of producing enough nurses to meet its demands. That's a fact. We need nurses from other countries. The Philippines is one of the only countries in the world with a surplus of nurses that trains them in English, so we'd be idiots not to take them.

I can't put too much blame on immigrants for health problems because they are just as likely to come from tourists or travelling Canadians like me. The second flare up of SARS can be blamed on Canadian docs and administrators who wouldn't listen to their nurses (2 of whom paid for that with their lives by the way). You can't prevent diseases from entering the country unless you completely seal it off from the world and that's just unrealistic.

The Canadian government is intentionally seeking immigrants and only certain types but their requirements have nothing to do with ethnicity or race, so it can't be called a genocidal policy.

When I said wealth, I didn't mean Richie Rich or anything. I just mean that those with the means to move to a better neighbourhood will always do it regardless of their race. Coloured people of means aren't going to stay in a crime ridden area and more than white people. That's not about race.
 
Psyrus1
#28
Interesting.

I think the biggest challenge on the board is seperating skin colour and values.

I don't feel particularly threated be asians or indians or whoever moving next door, when they're bringing their kids to the baseball game, taking an active role to intergrate into the community, volunteering, and generally trying to embrace canadiana with open arms.

I *do* have a problem with foreigners (including white foreigners) who live on a plane of existance removed from the world around them. I've met Russians, Swedes, Frenchmen, etc who moved to Canada and looked down their noses at "lowly canadians." This simply isn't a debate between whether we want white people or coloured people in this country. Its whether we want pro-canadians or aloof (or even anti) canadians representing the future of our country.

Any thoughts?
 
tracy
#29
Psyrus I could not agree more with you on that.
 
shannon
#30
We as Canadians need to keep up the immigration levels to maintain our population, no doubt about it. As a multiethnic country, we should keep encouraging immigrants from all corners of the globe to come settle here, provided they are screened extensively prior to their arrival, as all immigrants should be regardless of country of origin.

Once they arrive, I don't think it's in our best interest to use a multicultural approach with our new immigrants. We should have an assimilation policy or a "melting pot" approach where the new immigrants feel welcome into their new country and embrace our culture. This has worked well for the US, why not have it work for us as well?
 

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