Manitoba trucker speaks about role in aftermath of grisly Greyhound killing


Praxius
#1


http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/st...greyhound.html

Quote:

A truck driver who scrambled to help Greyhound passengers who had witnessed a stabbing and decapitation in July aboard a bus on the Trans-Canada Highway near Portage la Prairie, Man., is criticizing the RCMP's response.

Speaking publicly for the first time, Christopher Alguire, a long-distance trucker, said in an interview with CBC News that he noticed trouble on the bus as he drove through the area west of Winnipeg on the evening of July 31, so he pulled over to see if he could help.

"You see somebody on the side of the highway, pulled over erratically in such a manner, you instantly know something is wrong, and it's just the nature of my personality, I'm always willing to stop and give a helping hand," he said from Morden, Man., Tuesday morning.

Bus passengers told him that a passenger on the bus had attacked and stabbed a man, later identified as 22-year-old Tim McLean, a Winnipeg man who had been working at a carnival in Edmonton. Both McLean and his attacker were still on the bus.
Guarded bus door

Alguire grabbed a snipe, a metre-long bar used to help secure loads on his truck, and immediately ran to the bus and assisted the bus driver, who was holding the vehicle's door closed.

"Basically I [got] everybody to a safe spot. They were pretty upset already, so I had them directed to the back of the bus, behind the cargo trailer, so they could no longer see what was happening inside," he said.

He told other passengers who wanted to help or were worried about their safety where they could find other tools in his truck to protect themselves, in case the suspect tried to exit the vehicle. Later, the bus driver boarded the bus, and Alguire followed.

"The bus driver had stepped onto the bus and then I had to get onto the bus and step in front of him because I took it into my own hands to protect all the people as best I could. That was my mission," he said.

He saw McLean's head being severed, then retreated off the bus and helped again hold the door shut until RCMP arrived.
Critical of RCMP response

Alguire said he is disturbed and angry that police waited so long before arresting the suspect, allowing more time for indignities to be done to McLean's body.

"One of the things I did not like is when I did have the passengers in behind the bus they could not see nothing. And I positioned them there for that reason," he said.

"Now after the decapitation and stuff, the one RCMP officer had the people move to the front of the second bus, so now they could stand on the highway, turn around and look into the monster windshields of this Greyhound bus to where the assailant and victim were."

"And now this ... character, he has an audience and it's like he's provoked to show them his work, and now all these innocent people have to see what this man has been doing."

McLean's mother told media last week that RCMP should have stormed the bus to save her son's body from further atrocities.

Alguire agreed.

"I told the cops a few different times to shoot him, because he has no reason in this world to live anymore," he said.

Alguire acknowledges that people hail his actions as heroic, but he shrugs off the distinction.

"I've had mentors in my life that have always shown me the way of battle, and it just came naturally to me," he said.

"We've got a very close family, we love each other very much and we'd do anything for each other to keep each other safe. It's a dangerous world out here and you know, we got to be prepared at all times to protect our loved ones."

Vince Weiguang Li, 40, is charged with second-degree murder in McLean's death. He has been ordered to undergo a psychiatric assessment to determine if he's fit to stand trial.

So just because you're emotionally charged in the matter, you think the police should have shot the man dead?

Just because you do something heroic, doesn't mean everything you do or think is right. He did a good job in keeping them at the back of the bus so they didn't have to see what was going on, and perhaps the RCMP were wrong in throwing them front & centre of what was going on.... but I disagree with the notion that they should have shot him dead..... hell, that's what the idiot wanted in the first place.... give him that, and then you have more idiots in the future commiting these sorts of crimes to get suicided by cop.

Police officers have to approach each situation with protocol and without emotion..... that's why this trucker isn't a police officer.

What do you personally feel? Should the RCMP have shot and killed Li then and there as he held up the head and taunted them?
 
karrie
#2
I don't think they 'should' have, but, I have a hard time understanding how they could not shoot him. I can't even fathom seeing that kind of monstrous behavior out of someone and waiting calmly to go through protocol and arrest him. To me, that incident would have been a step outside of reality, and I'd have shot him dead, despite my pacifist nature. Wouldn't you shoot the monster in the horror movie?
 
L Gilbert
#3
Cops without emotion? These days? lol
Something upsetting happens and it seems most of them most of the time fly off the handle and join together in a feeding frenzy.
These cops don't seem to have been thinking at all. Otherwise they wouldn't have subjected the other passengers to the sights.
So, apparently there is no rhyme nor reason to police action. They shoot people full of holes because they think he has a gun instead of a cell phone, but not someone who is obviously armed and has killed another person. Go figure.
 
Praxius
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by karrie View Post

I don't think they 'should' have, but, I have a hard time understanding how they could not shoot him. I can't even fathom seeing that kind of monstrous behavior out of someone and waiting calmly to go through protocol and arrest him. To me, that incident would have been a step outside of reality, and I'd have shot him dead, despite my pacifist nature. Wouldn't you shoot the monster in the horror movie?

First, it's not a movie, it was real life, with real life consequences.... the guy he killed was already dead and shooting him after the fact when he can not pose a danger to others being locked inside the bus, would only make the situation even worse, as I see it. Whether it's someone holding a head up to you that they just cut off, or someone who has a freezer full of chopped up bodies stored for months, the situation remains the same..... to bring the criminal to face his crimes and justice for them. Police see plenty of screwed up stuff just about everyday on the job.... some worse the others, and unfortunatly, certain rights must still be applied to the criminal in question, no matter how horrible their crime is.

Just take Robert Pickton for example.

But stepping back a bit..... if the police showed up as he was attacking the guy, they would have been in their rights to shoot him dead, to protect the innocent. Since the innocent is already dead and the other civilians are already out of harms way, the objective is to bring the criminal in.... if he had a gun and still posed a direct threat to the police and others there, then I could very well see him being shot and killed..... but that didn't happen.

If I was an officer there, with a firearm available to put him down as he swung a head around, taunting me, would I shoot him?

No.... because my life and everybody else's life is not presently in danger.
 
Praxius
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert View Post

Cops without emotion? These days? lol
Something upsetting happens and it seems most of them most of the time fly off the handle and join together in a feeding frenzy.



Well I certainly see plenty of that occuring in the US, esspecially when their own officers are attacks and/or killed..... but there hasn't been too many situations in Canada (That I'm currently aware of) where our officers went out of control.

Quote:

These cops don't seem to have been thinking at all. Otherwise they wouldn't have subjected the other passengers to the sights.



I agree on that part.

Quote:

So, apparently there is no rhyme nor reason to police action. They shoot people full of holes because they think he has a gun instead of a cell phone, but not someone who is obviously armed and has killed another person. Go figure.

Well once again, I can only relate to your examples through reports I have followed in the US, compared to this situation which has occured in Canada.... two different countries, two different mentalities. If you could perhaps direct me to a few recent examples within Canada of this occuring, then I could probably comment a bit further and better.
 
#juan
#6
I thought the truck driver sounded a little full of himself. He did everything but call himself a hero.
As far as the killer goes, he was holding up the victim's head and waving his knife around and the police should have shot him. Would have saved the cost of a trial and the cost of supporting this looney bastard for the next forty years.
 
Scott Free
#7
The only reason the police wouldn't have shot him, in all probability, is because of the witnesses and the horrific nature of the crime. If something like that happens it is a pretty good bet that it will be front page news and in dealing with police it has been my experience that such situations bring out the best in police behaviour.

In northern BC for example a man was executed at a police station for having an open container of beer. Despite the coroner and blood splatter expert both saying the death was murder the police office was exonerated by an "internal inquest." Instead they found the unarmed man was shot in the back of the head because the police officer was defending himself!?!? That is typical police behaviour where I live.

The other factor is that police are trained to be in control of situations; this despite the obvious problem that they usually aren't but that's why they are required to fail an IQ test. Luckily most petty criminals couldn't pass the same test either. In the bus example, because of the horror of the situation, the police were probably just following their training, which surprisingly doesn't include shooting people unless there is sufficient need, and so didn't have peace of mind to think of some way to shoot the killer. The killer probably responded to demands to drop his weapon and police, still in shock, responded as trained, not as they may have if they had been able to think about it clearly.

IMO.
Last edited by Scott Free; Sep 2nd, 2008 at 02:24 PM..
 
Praxius
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by #juan View Post

I thought the truck driver sounded a little full of himself. He did everything but call himself a hero.

Yeah, I read a lot of "I did this / I did that / I told people to go do this / that / The police should have done this / that."

Well Mr. Superhero, why didn't you stay on that bus when you hopped on, and killed him yourself?

Quote:

As far as the killer goes, he was holding up the victim's head and waving his knife around and the police should have shot him. Would have saved the cost of a trial and the cost of supporting this looney bastard for the next forty years.

Perhaps, but I believe that if they did shoot him, then there would be an even more expensive public inquiry into the whole thing, ie: who shot him, why did they shoot him, was anybody else in clear and immediate danger, was the threat contained, etc.?

Then we'd be watching it all on TV just like the Mulroney Schreiber joke...... all at tax payers' expense, and I doubt this would have been any better of an outcome.

He'd be dead? Perhaps.... he'd be dead, but some police officer would be hanging his career by the neck in doing so..... in this situation, it's only Li that's got the public's focus and I feel it should continue that way..... he killed and beheaded the guy, he can now face justice, all the while, everybody else did their job and they're not flung into a load of bureaucracy over their actions.
 
shadowshiv
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by Scott Free View Post

The only reason the police wouldn't have shot him, in all probability, is because of the witnesses and the horrific nature of the crime. If something like that happens it is a pretty good bet that it will be front page news and in dealing with police it has been my experience that such situations bring out the best in police behaviour.

In northern BC for example a man was executed at a police station for having an open container of beer. Despite the coroner and blood splatter expert both saying the death was murder the police office was exonerated by an "internal inquest." Instead they found the unarmed man was shot in the back of the head because the police officer was defending himself!?!? That is typical police behaviour where I live.

The other factor is that police are trained to be in control of situations; this despite the obvious problem that they usually aren't but that's why they are required to fail an IQ test. Luckily most petty criminals couldn't pass the same test either. In the bus example, because of the horror of the situation, the police were probably just following their training, which surprisingly doesn't include shooting people unless there is sufficient need, and so didn't have peace of mind to think of some way to shoot the killer. The killer probably responded to demands to drop his weapon and police, still in shock, responded as trained, not as they may have if they had been able to think about it clearly.

IMO.

I see you are still going on about a person having to be stupid to join the police.

With regards to the topic brought up by Praxius, I would have to say no I wouldn't shoot him. Even though I have said that it would be great if murderers and molesters of children should be killed, I would not be able to do it. And I have to think that most police officers out there think the same way. They are normal human beings after all, and they would be quite emotionally affected no matter how much of a monster the person they shot was.

There are bad apples in every profession, and police officers are no exception. I honestly think the media is skewed with this sort of thing. They report the bad things the police do(as well they should), but how many good things do the police do that is never made mention of? How many police officers have died? How many lives have been saved by the actions of police? Seems to warrant the back page of the newspaper more often than not according to them.
 
Praxius
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by shadowshiv View Post

I see you are still going on about a person having to be stupid to join the police.

With regards to the topic brought up by Praxius, I would have to say no I wouldn't shoot him. Even though I have said that it would be great if murderers and molesters of children should be killed, I would not be able to do it. And I have to think that most police officers out there think the same way. They are normal human beings after all, and they would be quite emotionally affected no matter how much of a monster the person they shot was.

There are bad apples in every profession, and police officers are no exception. I honestly think the media is skewed with this sort of thing. They report the bad things the police do(as well they should), but how many good things do the police do that is never made mention of? How many police officers have died? How many lives have been saved by the actions of police? Seems to warrant the back page of the newspaper more often than not according to them.

True, but perhaps it has to do with the public already expecting these things from officers, which is why we don't hear about their good deeds all the time. Mind you, we do usually hear about every officer killed in the line of duty.... even firemen get this attention..... but when it comes to what they do everyday, perhaps there are also some limitations on what the media can know about.

We hear about drug busts, etc..... but when someone is saved in a domestic dispute, or assault, we may not hear much detail, because it's still under investigation.... perhaps.
 
karrie
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by Praxius View Post

First, it's not a movie, it was real life, with real life consequences....

Why are you arguing my response? I said, they shouldn't have shot him.

The fact that it WOULD in fact be a step outside of reality for me to see something like that Prax, is unarguable. I WOULD react, would HAVE to react, outside of my norm, outside of what I consider reality. I would have shot him. I would have feared something more about to happen, and I'd have shot him dead on the spot. The instant someone swings a severed head in my direction, they will die if I can find a way. I don't agree with killing. But, that much I guarantee you Prax. And there's no arguing it.

Taunt me with severed head, die. I will gladly create a distinction in my mind and declare the person a movie monster. I will show up in court to explain that I can't be charged with murder anymore than any movie star can. And I'd happily go away, wrapped in a straight jacket, declaring the monster dead and scene finished.
 
#juan
#12
Well said Karrie

Li raised the bar on crimes people do to each other in this country. He did this horrible thing and he did it in front of people, and children. Now we are going to install this creep in our sometimes leaky penal system. There is no doubt in my mind.......He should have been shot.
 
karrie
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by #juan View Post

Well said Karrie

Li raised the bar on crimes people do to each other in this country. He did this horrible thing and he did it in front of people, and children. Now we are going to install this creep in our sometimes leaky penal system. There is no doubt in my mind.......He should have been shot.

well juan, I do hold the police to a higher standard than I hold myself, and I don't think they should have shot him. But, I wouldn't have held it against them if they snapped under the circumstances and did either.
 
#juan
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by karrie View Post

well juan, I do hold the police to a higher standard than I hold myself, and I don't think they should have shot him. But, I wouldn't have held it against them if they snapped under the circumstances and did either.

I don't blame anyone for not shooting this animal either but in a perfect world Li would have been shot dead. As it stands we, along with the victim's family, will suffer through a bloody trial and hear all the stupid evidence.
 
lone wolf
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by #juan View Post

I don't blame anyone for not shooting this animal either but in a perfect world Li would have been shot dead. As it stands we, along with the victim's family, will suffer through a bloody trial and hear all the stupid evidence.

Unfortunately, it's not a perfect world. Ambulance chasers are the perfect evidence of that. Question: How do they propose metal detectors at roadside flag stops?
 
Praxius
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by karrie View Post

Why are you arguing my response? I said, they shouldn't have shot him.

Yes, followed by "I have a hard time understanding how they could not shoot him." which sort of perplexes your opinion on the matter.... as it would seem you were trying to explain that there was a level of justification for shooting him, due to basic human reaction.

Quote:

The fact that it WOULD in fact be a step outside of reality for me to see something like that Prax, is unarguable. I WOULD react, would HAVE to react, outside of my norm, outside of what I consider reality. I would have shot him. I would have feared something more about to happen, and I'd have shot him dead on the spot. The instant someone swings a severed head in my direction, they will die if I can find a way. I don't agree with killing. But, that much I guarantee you Prax. And there's no arguing it.

Well you can't argue what you yourself may or may not do.... it's you in question with you responding, but when in regards to police officers and trying to understand why they didn't react the way you feel you would, I figured I would shed my views on why they didn't.

You brought up the monster in a movie example, and that was what I was responding to.

In a movie, I might slowly crush his skull under the bus's front right wheel..... but, it wasn't a movie, and thus, I went on explaining about the ramifications of certain actions in real life, compared to a movie.

Quote:

Taunt me with severed head, die. I will gladly create a distinction in my mind and declare the person a movie monster. I will show up in court to explain that I can't be charged with murder anymore than any movie star can. And I'd happily go away, wrapped in a straight jacket, declaring the monster dead and scene finished.

They have test for those sorts of things, and I don't believe you'd pass (That'd be a compliment on your mental stability.) ~ And although I get your example of the movie stars getting away with murder in movies..... nobody really dies in those movies and is to express a story.

So, you'd try and use the old "TV, Music, Movies, Video Games made me do it?"
 
Scott Free
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by shadowshiv View Post

I see you are still going on about a person having to be stupid to join the police.

With regards to the topic brought up by Praxius, I would have to say no I wouldn't shoot him. Even though I have said that it would be great if murderers and molesters of children should be killed, I would not be able to do it. And I have to think that most police officers out there think the same way. They are normal human beings after all, and they would be quite emotionally affected no matter how much of a monster the person they shot was.

There are bad apples in every profession, and police officers are no exception. I honestly think the media is skewed with this sort of thing. They report the bad things the police do(as well they should), but how many good things do the police do that is never made mention of? How many police officers have died? How many lives have been saved by the actions of police? Seems to warrant the back page of the newspaper more often than not according to them.

I have rarely gotten to see such an example of double think and unauthentic experience as this post!

So do you support doctors that kill people? I mean doctors save a lot of lives right? Some bad apples are to be expected right? And some doctors who kill people, deliberately or by malpractice, still have saved some people right?

What about nurses that kill people? They seem to get caught more often.

What about gang bangers who save people and keep the streets safer? Gangs in general do that, it's part of the pay off for people covering up for them. I know in TV land the myth is that people are too afraid of the gangs to speak up but the reality is that people need their protection and they know the cops won't be there when they need them.

You just like the police because you think they're your gang and they wouldn't shoot or tazer you. Maybe they are your gang? I've known police, their families and ambulance drivers that wouldn't get speeding tickets because they were "club members." Hell, club members can even kill people if they want. It's quite a club.
 
karrie
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by Praxius View Post

Yes, followed by "I have a hard time understanding how they could not shoot him." which sort of perplexes your opinion on the matter....

No.... it makes perfect sense actually. It's right along the same vein as knowing that a honey truck operator needs to climb into septic tanks, but, not understanding how he can do it. It's simple... he climbs into the tank. But I don't get how they can do it. I know these officers shouldn't have shot the guy, but, I don't get how they couldn't. Get it?
 
shadowshiv
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by Scott Free View Post

I have rarely gotten to see such an example of double think and unauthentic experience as this post!

So do you support doctors that kill people? I mean doctors save a lot of lives right? Some bad apples are to be expected right? And some doctors who kill people, deliberately or by malpractice, still have saved some people right?

What about nurses that kill people? They seem to get caught more often.

What about gang bangers who save people and keep the streets safer? Gangs in general do that, it's part of the pay off for people covering up for them. I know in TV land the myth is that people are too afraid of the gangs to speak up but the reality is that people need their protection and they know the cops won't be there when they need them.

You just like the police because you think they're your gang and they wouldn't shoot or tazer you. Maybe they are your gang? I've known police, their families and ambulance drivers that wouldn't get speeding tickets because they were "club members." Hell, club members can even kill people if they want. It's quite a club.

Let's see. Being the son of a police officer did not stop me from getting a speeding ticket, nor did it prevent me from getting in trouble for shoplifting. The only club I belong to is a tennis club.

And I am sorry that my experiences are not authentic enough for you. Oh wait. No I'm not.
 
Scott Free
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by shadowshiv View Post

Let's see. Being the son of a police officer did not stop me from getting a speeding ticket, nor did it prevent me from getting in trouble for shoplifting. The only club I belong to is a tennis club.

So why is it everyone else I know who is related to or works for police is able to do practically whatever they want?

I don't think you know yet that you belong to a club. How many times did you speed before you got a ticket? Were you in your dads car? I doubt it.

I have a friend who's dad was a cop. He just got nailed for a DUI and lost his licence for a year. I made a joke that he should have mentioned his dad to which he got indignant and said it didn't help! You should hear him now yell and scream about police because he finally got caught for something - the spoilt little dip $hit that he is.
 
karrie
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by Scott Free View Post

So why is it everyone else I know who is related to or works for police is able to do practically whatever they want?

...
I have a friend who's dad was a cop. He just got nailed for a DUI ...

????
 
Lithp
#22
Scott Free...are you serious with all your anti - cop BS? or is this just rhetoric? DO you have any idea what it's like to be a cop? DO you have any idea how accountable a cop is for his/her actions?

You seem to think that cops are randomly shooting and tasering people. Nothing can be further from the truth. Cops show HUGE restraint most of the time- even when they are justified in opening a can of whoop a** on a dangerous person.

Required to fail an IQ test? Are we trolling here???

Come on, be serious. You make cops sound like they are stupid criminals with no self control or accountability. Give your head a shake.

Oh ya, but the point about the whack job and whether or not he should have been shot: I'll reserve judgment on that one.
 
Scott Free
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by karrie View Post

????

????
 
karrie
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by Scott Free View Post

????

yeah, that's about your speed today it seems.
 
Scott Free
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by Lithp View Post

Scott Free...are you serious with all your anti - cop BS?

Yes.

and

People who want to be jackboots have to take aptitude tests and if they score too high for IQ they are not allowed to be cops.



Judge Rules That Police Can Bar High I.Q. Scores

IQ too high

Police reject candidate for being too intelligent

Now the big question is: why is that? Cui bono?
Last edited by Scott Free; Sep 3rd, 2008 at 10:25 PM..
 
Scott Free
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by karrie View Post

yeah, that's about your speed today it seems.

No, I was just keeping pace with you because I thought maybe you had a point. My bad.
 
Scott Free
#27
Fail
 
Praxius
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by karrie View Post

No.... it makes perfect sense actually. It's right along the same vein as knowing that a honey truck operator needs to climb into septic tanks, but, not understanding how he can do it. It's simple... he climbs into the tank. But I don't get how they can do it. I know these officers shouldn't have shot the guy, but, I don't get how they couldn't. Get it?

I suppose so

Perhaps my response was geared more towards how you threw it all together and ended it off with "....and I'd have shot him dead, despite my pacifist nature. Wouldn't you shoot the monster in the horror movie?"

Question presented, I replied with my answer, which of course started off with the movie comparison.

Either way, never mind.
 
Praxius
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by Scott Free View Post

So why is it everyone else I know who is related to or works for police is able to do practically whatever they want?

I don't think you know yet that you belong to a club. How many times did you speed before you got a ticket? Were you in your dads car? I doubt it.

I have a friend who's dad was a cop. He just got nailed for a DUI and lost his licence for a year. I made a joke that he should have mentioned his dad to which he got indignant and said it didn't help! You should hear him now yell and scream about police because he finally got caught for something - the spoilt little dip $hit that he is.

I imagine many are out there who do try and milk the system, but that doesn't mean you're right in generalizing everybody else, in every other community other then your own, and all police officers and those they are related to and/or know personally.

My dad played baseball with the RCMP all the time when I was a kid, had them over for BBQ's, their German Sheppard destroyed my dog's ball, we knew them pretty well, got RCMP hats too..... that didn't stop them from giving my brother a speeding ticket of about $160 when he was rushing to the ball game with their equipment in the trunk in my dad's car. That didn't stop them from telling my dad that he had to get rid of his Sten MKII SMG and Bren Gun when he went to show off his military stuff downstairs.

There are good cops who do the job they're trained to do, and then there are those who make a little "Club" as you say for certain people to get away with minor things.

To me, it depends on what the offense is in question. A DUI is something I wouldn't tollerate and I would have done the same thing and removed someone's driving licence for a year.... at the very least..... no matter who it was. Yet if it was a minor offense, usually a warning or a small ticket would do the trick.
 
Scott Free
#30
So what gives them the right to decide to give your brother a $160 dollar fine for speeding but not put your dad in jail for the mandatory 5 years owning a prohibited weapon legally requires?
 

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