Arctic boundary dispute may be heating up


sanctus
#1





Canadian Press
Canada's unresolved Arctic boundary disputes with the United States could be heating up with a new American push to join the international treaty on the Law of the Sea, say experts on both sides of the border.
Drawn by resource wealth and climate change concerns, the Bush administration is asking the U.S. Senate to approve the treaty and give the U.S. legal tools to press its claims to an energy-rich wedge of the Beaufort Sea that Canada considers its own.
"That tells me we're probably going to be winding up in a dispute," said Rob Huebert of the Centre for Military and Strategic Studies at the University of Calgary.
"Once they've ratified, they can get serious about determination of their continental shelf."
The Law of the Sea treaty came into effect in 1994 and has now been ratified by 152 countries as well as the European Union. The U.S. has voluntarily complied with its provisions but has never signed it.
But last week, President George W. Bush issued a release supporting the treaty and urging the Senate to approve it.
"(The treaty) will secure U.S. sovereign rights over extensive marine areas, including the valuable natural resources they contain," Bush said.
One of the areas Bush likely has in mind is the water along the border between Alaska and the Yukon.
Canada has long insisted the international border continues through the ocean in a straight line from the land. The U.S. argues instead that the border angles 30 degrees to the east.
The area is considered to have high oil and gas potential. Alaska has put exploration rights to the block up for sale several times, but no company has bid on it while its nationality remains disputed.
The Law of the Sea treaty allows signatories to establish jurisdiction over offshore resources based on how far their continental shelf extends under the sea. Signing on to the treaty would set the rules for negotiating the location of the border, said Huebert.
"It's all about getting in line for when the inevitable division of the Arctic comes into play. The Americans know we're serious about the determination of our continental shelf."
Arctic waters are behind the administration's push to ratify the treaty, said U.S. Rear Admiral (Ret.) Richard West, now president of the Consortium for Oceanographic Research and Education.
"Most of our interest is in and around Alaska," said West.
General concern for the Arctic in light of the effects of climate change is also behind the new interest in the treaty, West said.
"It's absolutely essential we accede to it so we can sit down and negotiate with our partner Canada. You can't participate in the negotiations until you become part of the treaty."
A 2004 document prepared for the state of Alaska suggests economic interests are also important.
"Ratification of the treaty could, therefore, allow the United States to make a claim to an area of submarine terrain covering nearly half again the size of the state of Alaska," said the Sea Change report. "This continental ridge is known to be rich in oil, natural gas and methane hydrates."
Canada, the U.S., and other Arctic countries such as Denmark and Russia are all busily engaged in mapping the outer edges of their continental shelves in preparation for making their offshore claims.
"One of the real beauties of (the treaty) is that it sets out scientific rules and principles on how to set the boundaries out," said Richard MacDougall, a hydrographer with the Bedford Institute of Oceanography in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia.
Still, tough talks likely lie ahead for the Yukon and Alaska.
"In most cases, those lateral boundaries become negotiations," said MacDougall.
Although attempts to ratify the Law of the Sea date back to the Reagan administration, West says the treaty has enough influential backing in the Senate to likely make it to a vote.
"I think it's the best chance we've ever had," he said. "I think there's a good chance it will pass this Congress."
 
dumpthemonarchy
Free Thinker
#2
Caanda needs to build two military bases in the north. At the east and west entrances of the Northwest Pasage. This is becoming a national priority, relying like a baby on Uncle Sam is no longer a good strategy with the end of the cold war.

How to pay? We could withdraw forces from Afghanistan and use the money for the bases. Easy. The bogus war on terror there is over.
 
FiveParadox
Liberal
#3
It’s too bad. I have no doubt that were the United States of America were to begin pushing for ownership of the Arctic, The Right Honourable Stephen Harper P.C. , M.P. ( Calgary Southwest ), the Prime Minister of Canada , would quite thoroughly capitulate. Canada needs to give a strong, progressive mandate for the Liberal Party of Canada to govern in order to protect our northern interests—and our Arctic sovereignty.

Is the Government of Canada going to start handing us over to the Americans?
 
Zzarchov
#4
As much as I hate to admit it, I am very pro-Northern Sovereignty.

Not from some "whats ours is ours" view, but because Canadian citizens have a right to protection from the government. We have Canadian citizens up there, if we don't claim their land as Canadian land, then we cannot stop Northern land (held by Canadian citizens) from being used as a toxic or nuclear waste dump by foriegn powers.

It would be no different then letting a US garbage truck come over the border and dump toxic chemicals in mainstreet Toronto.
 
dumpthemonarchy
Free Thinker
#5
For too long we figured that we'll "Just let the gov't take care of it," in a vague sort of way. The American nuclear umbrella, and our great distance away from the world's trouble spots. The world is coming to northern Canada in a way it could not before.

There are nations out there that are actually northern nations with an Arctic conscious and spend big bucks to stay that way. Denmark spends big bucks on bases in Greenland, we spend next to nothing on the north.

The joke Canada is a horizontal Chile, within 200 miles of the USA is bad news for the north. Our focus is south, not north. Despite the will of the majority on this, other groups must force a focus northwards, resources is a start, but it cannot be the whole story.
 
Unforgiven
#6
With the advent of climate change and the shortage of oil becoming an issue, the Arctic will be under extreme pressure from the US and perhaps other interests. It should be of great concern to everyone in Canada and an effort put forth to declare and maintain our sovereignty through strong borders.

I like the idea of pulling troops out from Afghanistan actually, and I would go one step further to pull our troops from the other areas of the world and let them sort out their own problems while we sort out or own.

In an effort to preserve our countries sovereignty, I would suggest even a mandatory term in the military upon the age of majority for all able bodied men and women in Canada to ensure that our borders are strong and visibly defended, but to also instill a sense of ownership of our country that is lacking in much of today's youth.

A nice four year hitch and we'll help with university through free tuition seems a good way to kill two birds with one stone.
 
iARTthere4iam
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post


In an effort to preserve our countries sovereignty, I would suggest even a mandatory term in the military upon the age of majority for all able bodied men and women in Canada to ensure that our borders are strong and visibly defended, but to also instill a sense of ownership of our country that is lacking in much of today's youth.

A nice four year hitch and we'll help with university through free tuition seems a good way to kill two birds with one stone.

Damn! I like that. I have been saying that for years. I think the mandatory service should be required either in the military, or coast guard or some other Canadian service.
 
dumpthemonarchy
Free Thinker
#8
Mandatory service in the military? In Canada?

How about a federal program that is exciting patrols the North in an official but non-millitay way? Sort of like Katimavik for adults. I could even for a coast guard service possibly. The North is huge and needs a little surveillance by us Cdns as it is getting more accessible and valuable by the day.

We are so laid back about things in Canada, we don't need to overreact and turn this into a hardcore military/security problem. Other nations are aggressive in their rights. Look at Russia these days being very pushy over their energy policy in Europe.
 
iARTthere4iam
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchy View Post

Mandatory service in the military? In Canada?

How about a federal program that is exciting patrols the North in an official but non-millitay way? Sort of like Katimavik for adults. I could even for a coast guard service possibly. The North is huge and needs a little surveillance by us Cdns as it is getting more accessible and valuable by the day.

We are so laid back about things in Canada, we don't need to overreact and turn this into a hardcore military/security problem. Other nations are aggressive in their rights. Look at Russia these days being very pushy over their energy policy in Europe.

Some sort of mandatory service. I thnk there could be options to choose from, the military being one option. Perhaps some foreign aid service like the peace corps could send young Canadians around the world to assist where assistance is needed or an arctic protection/surveilance or research service.

this would have all kinds of benefits...

1. Allow young canadians to see some of the world and more of Canada
2. Provide Canada with people to do worthwhile tasks
3. Possibly provide a way for foreigners to gain citizenship
4. Help other countries with Canadian know-how and money
 
Zzarchov
#10
So where you in the forces then?

It is most certainly not for everyone. Some people are just not made for it, and I would hate to see our forces weighed down with people who just aren't meant for it and just can't deal with it?

Would you suggest everyone spend four years as an accountant? Would you trust your tax information to be handled by one of those random people?

Being in the military isn't as simple as giving someone fatigues and a gun.
 
dumpthemonarchy
Free Thinker
#11
There should be options for northern service, good idea. Not everyone is suited to handle a gun. For me, all I know about a gun thingy is that it ryhmes with bun. Cdns need to see more of the North, work, visit and live.

The USA is requiring Cdns to have a passport to enter their country by 2009. This seems like an ally that is not acting like an ally of old. Too paranoid. Things are changing. Then there are other countries like Russia that are acting quite aggressively in the world. Will they defer to Canada in the North?
 
Johnnny
No Party Affiliation
#12
Im getting really fed up with America, and our conservative government isnt doing us any good by humping the bush adminstrations leg
 
Dreadful Nonsense
#13
Ever been in the Military? This is not military bashing ,but reality check.
Sure sounds nice this here mandatory stretch for everyone from guys over 50...HRrruumph!

they teach stuff like how to kill and maim people and wounding people is better than killing for it ties up resources. Yeah lets take all our kids and put em through those lessons.There are certain people where the military is good and others it would actually harm or change in a way that change wasn't a good thing.

One has to have been in there to understand this. As a kid I did this govt. ssep course where you joined the army. I freaked out in class when they brought in land mines, yeah Canada was really big into these things in the 70's. Ya had some guy describing what they did to you....nice stuff.

I've always said this mandatory high school thing was good for like the 1920's but is sooooo out dated.
Lets give a total univercity education to those that want it....whats it going to cost. 5 billion, 10 billion tops.
what do you get besides an upgraded country.
The higher the education the less domestic violence, less racism,less crime.
A guy with a doctorate ain't going to be busting yer lock to get your dvd player.

When I spoke of this to real lower income people the common reply was"Then they won't have an exuse not to go to school"
 
Zzarchov
#14
A guy with a doctorate will still bust in your house to steal your DVD player if EVERYONE has a doctorate.
 
Unforgiven
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchy View Post

There should be options for northern service, good idea. Not everyone is suited to handle a gun. For me, all I know about a gun thingy is that it ryhmes with bun. Cdns need to see more of the North, work, visit and live.

The USA is requiring Cdns to have a passport to enter their country by 2009. This seems like an ally that is not acting like an ally of old. Too paranoid. Things are changing. Then there are other countries like Russia that are acting quite aggressively in the world. Will they defer to Canada in the North?

That is actualy only a small part of military service. After basic training, it's specializing in the various aspects of sea air and land forces, and I stress homeland deployment. Patroling the North should be one of our priorities as it becomes more and more relevant with the changes in climate and political postures globaly. As well the management and team building on top of education about our country are valuble tools in business.

While I thing there is a benefit to some while and wooley years in a young persons life, there is also a time for disapline, routine and national pride.
 
Dreadful Nonsense
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post

That is actualy only a small part of military service. After basic training, it's specializing in the various aspects of sea air and land forces, and I stress homeland deployment. Patroling the North should be one of our priorities as it becomes more and more relevant with the changes in climate and political postures globaly. As well the management and team building on top of education about our country are valuble tools in business.

While I thing there is a benefit to some while and wooley years in a young persons life, there is also a time for disapline, routine and national pride.


Sounds like you could get a job in an ad company for Uncle Sam Wants You.

It's the flippin Army...they teach you how to kill...it's not for everyone thats why they did away with the draft in the states and never had one in Canada for we are foward thinkers.
 
Unforgiven
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by DocDred View Post

Sounds like you could get a job in an ad company for Uncle Sam Wants You.

It's the flippin Army...they teach you how to kill...it's not for everyone thats why they did away with the draft in the states and never had one in Canada for we are foward thinkers.

Yeah like you know the first thing about it Dave.
 
Dreadful Nonsense
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post

Yeah like you know the first thing about it Dave.


oh here we go....now it's the personnal attacks instead of debate....ah unfy do ya never change....
can you please stick to your bs so we can talk.
 
iARTthere4iam
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by DocDred View Post

Ever been in the Military? This is not military bashing ,but reality check.
Sure sounds nice this here mandatory stretch for everyone from guys over 50...HRrruumph!

they teach stuff like how to kill and maim people and wounding people is better than killing for it ties up resources. Yeah lets take all our kids and put em through those lessons.There are certain people where the military is good and others it would actually harm or change in a way that change wasn't a good thing.

One has to have been in there to understand this. As a kid I did this govt. ssep course where you joined the army. I freaked out in class when they brought in land mines, yeah Canada was really big into these things in the 70's. Ya had some guy describing what they did to you....nice stuff.

I've always said this mandatory high school thing was good for like the 1920's but is sooooo out dated.
Lets give a total univercity education to those that want it....whats it going to cost. 5 billion, 10 billion tops.
what do you get besides an upgraded country.
The higher the education the less domestic violence, less racism,less crime.
A guy with a doctorate ain't going to be busting yer lock to get your dvd player.

When I spoke of this to real lower income people the common reply was"Then they won't have an exuse not to go to school"


Mandatory service but not necessarily in the military. The military is one service that one might choose to serve with. Environmental research, coast guard, norther patrol, foreign aid service, etc are other options. Free education, job training, and citizenship are all benefits that Canada could provide in exchange for such service.

The military offers many jobs besides combat from musicians to firefighters to truck drivers, surgeons and lawyers, and engineers. Many countries require military service and are not warmongers.
 
Dreadful Nonsense
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by iARTthere4iam View Post

Mandatory service but not necessarily in the military. The military is one service that one might choose to serve with. Environmental research, coast guard, norther patrol, foreign aid service, etc are other options. Free education, job training, and citizenship are all benefits that Canada could provide in exchange for such service.

The military offers many jobs besides combat from musicians to firefighters to truck drivers, surgeons and lawyers, and engineers. Many countries require military service and are not warmongers.

Ok when you give such options as these..i'm sooo there:

"Environmental research, coast guard, norther patrol, foreign aid service, etc are other options. Free education, job training, and citizenship are all benefits that Canada could provide in exchange for such service"

But keep in mind any stint in the military for what ever field you choose, surgeons, lawyers etc. come with field training and boot camp.
Certain aspects of the training require knowledge of killing maiming and tactics to employ vast amounts of killing and maiming . It's the army , not the peace corps.

I freaked out in land mine class as i stated earlier.
It was quite graphic what they were expecting a 16 year old kid to be able to do.
 
IdRatherBeSkiing
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by DocDred View Post

Certain aspects of the training require knowledge of killing maiming and tactics to employ vast amounts of killing and maiming . It's the army , not the peace corps.

May I ask where you are getting this information? When I was a teenager, I was in Air Cadets. It was a bumer since I had long hair then and had to have it cut. But other than that it was cool.

They did mock training, everything they would do if you were joining the Armed Forces particularly the Air Force but lighter since we were just teenagers. You did learn to fire a rifle on the range. You learned to march. You learned to give and take orders. You learned how to get up at 6AM. You learned to love bad food. You learned to fly. But no where did they even have a course called 'killing and maiming 101'. Please cite your source.
 
Dreadful Nonsense
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by IdRatherBeSkiing View Post

May I ask where you are getting this information? When I was a teenager, I was in Air Cadets. It was a bumer since I had long hair then and had to have it cut. But other than that it was cool.

They did mock training, everything they would do if you were joining the Armed Forces particularly the Air Force but lighter since we were just teenagers. You did learn to fire a rifle on the range. You learned to march. You learned to give and take orders. You learned how to get up at 6AM. You learned to love bad food. You learned to fly. But no where did they even have a course called 'killing and maiming 101'. Please cite your source.


summer of 71 or 72.

montreal had this Student Summer Employement Program.
For 65 bucks a week less taxes you did parks clean up you had to be 15.
If you were 16 you could Join the Royal Montreal Regiment and not pay taxes. You were given an Ifantry certificate at the end of 6 weeks which was basic training in the army. complete with going to Camp Farnham for a week and firing FNC2 rifles that as they put it could go through 8 men standing in a line.
In order to hit the target you ruined your face.you had to snuggle the thing tight to use the site and the backfire was hell. an Afternoon at the firing range had us all with face bruises, well not all the ones who did not hit the target did not do it proper....ask an reg....

I was 120 lbs and the smallest pants were a size 32 and i had a 29 waist. We used a can of spary startch on the uniform almost... any way forst day on parade and i'm like there at ease and the Warn officer comes up and goes whats wrong with your web belt...thats this army belt that has holes in it to hold stuff...eveerything was too big for so it was all bunched together looking....so he grabs the buckle and it easily opens and my pants fall to the floor with me shouting at the same time."My pants are too big sir"
everyone looked , he laughed and we all bonded....i think i was not supposed to call him sir for he was an uncommisioned officer.....
ahhhhh the joy .......

in one of the land mine and grenade classes i got back at them.

One thing about the army ...they understand idiots....everyone can be stupid.
so like they passed round this grenade cut in half to show you how it works.
Other dummy grenades. then the real live one comes out. This with ample warning not pull the pin...yup you got it.....kid passes it to me and i go "Is this the pin" holding the handle with care of course but now a live grenade in a class of kids with the pin out ....He went white and slowly came up to me grabing my hands , me letting him of course, and him putting the pin back in.....i played dumb...was brought before the captain and played like i dunno....sorry.....You can't get in trouble in the army for being stupid

ahhhhh the good ole days
not really camp farnham was hell
 
Zzarchov
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by IdRatherBeSkiing View Post

May I ask where you are getting this information? When I was a teenager, I was in Air Cadets. It was a bumer since I had long hair then and had to have it cut. But other than that it was cool.

They did mock training, everything they would do if you were joining the Armed Forces particularly the Air Force but lighter since we were just teenagers. You did learn to fire a rifle on the range. You learned to march. You learned to give and take orders. You learned how to get up at 6AM. You learned to love bad food. You learned to fly. But no where did they even have a course called 'killing and maiming 101'. Please cite your source.

Cadets is nothing like the military. Go into boot camp (or rather you shouldn't, instructors love finding ex cadets and making their life hell). You actually DO get trained on maiming, but congratulations THATS WHAT SOLDIERS DO. You get trained to shoot people in the leg rather than kill them, because then two more soldiers are required to drag that person off to medi-vac (where as a dead person just removes one person from the fight)

Now, I can only tell you about infantry mind you, maybe in the air force they teach you to have pillow fights in luxury hotel rooms :P
 
Unforgiven
#24
Heh heh heh cadets.
It's just like so basic training.



I think somebody pulled the pin alright. heh heh heh
 
Dreadful Nonsense
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by Zzarchov View Post

Cadets is nothing like the military. Go into boot camp (or rather you shouldn't, instructors love finding ex cadets and making their life hell). You actually DO get trained on maiming, but congratulations THATS WHAT SOLDIERS DO. You get trained to shoot people in the leg rather than kill them, because then two more soldiers are required to drag that person off to medi-vac (where as a dead person just removes one person from the fight)

Now, I can only tell you about infantry mind you, maybe in the air force they teach you to have pillow fights in luxury hotel rooms :P

Thanks for actually showing a little bit of the reality. The program I was in wasn't the regs or the reserves. It was pretty unique. It had been going on for years and you swore allegance to Queen and country back then. I don't know if we still swear allegance to the Queen when taking the oath. My year I joined they introduced a new provision that you could actually quit before the six weeks was up. Up until that time , not a chance.
LOL on the pillow fights....methinks you were in the Army, no? If so did you train with FNC1's c2's....This reg wouldn't show us but apparently there was this trick where you jammed a wooden matchstick or did something with it to turn the C1 into a C2. Apperantly the C1's barrel could get hot enough to warp from this practice.
 
Unforgiven
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by DocDred View Post

Thanks for actually showing a little bit of the reality. The program I was in wasn't the regs or the reserves. It was pretty unique. It had been going on for years and you swore allegance to Queen and country back then. I don't know if we still swear allegance to the Queen when taking the oath. My year I joined they introduced a new provision that you could actually quit before the six weeks was up. Up until that time , not a chance.
LOL on the pillow fights....methinks you were in the Army, no? If so did you train with FNC1's c2's....This reg wouldn't show us but apparently there was this trick where you jammed a wooden matchstick or did something with it to turn the C1 into a C2. Apperantly the C1's barrel could get hot enough to warp from this practice.

A welfare cadet "special forces" washout at 15? Oh noesss! Who will ride the short bus into battle?
 
DaSleeper
#27
The things people think they learn about firearms on the internet
 
Dreadful Nonsense
#28
yeah keep trying... lil weasels gotta have their fun too....
 
Unforgiven
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by DaSleeper View Post

The things people think they learn about firearms on the internet

Doc Google almost!
 
DaSleeper
#30
Having been a range-master at the local club in the past, and handled all kinds of firearms, I've also been in the army cadets, and learned taking the FN apart and putting it together (empty)and several other types of armament.
I find it absolutely unbelievable that an instructor would hand a live grenade to a bunch of 15 year olds ....and have a bunch of neophytes fire 308 caliber cartridges out of a semi-auto rifle......what a dream......
Last edited by DaSleeper; Jun 12th, 2007 at 03:50 PM..Reason: spelling
 

Similar Threads

0
HHO torch for heating metal work.
by CanadianLove | Feb 11th, 2009
1
S.E.alaska boundary
by Erik | Jan 3rd, 2007
0
Ontario Municipal Elections Heating up
by iamcanadian | Oct 26th, 2006
21
Federal Heating Rebate
by bevvyd | Oct 14th, 2005