The COLD WAR


Jay
+1
#1
Let's discuss it.

I know there are some posters here with an incredible amount of knowledge about this subject from both sides of the fence.

East vs. West?
Right vs. Wrong?

Was Soviet expansionism a threat?

Did WWII play a significant role?

Did the US actually win this or is it a facade?

The Cold War was hot in some area's....

Let's have it.
 
Jersay
#2
I don't actually think the cold war is over. Just because the Soviet Union collapsed, you still have some socialist or communist regimes that are left over. And socialism, communism seems to be growing.

Look at South America, Nepal, and other places as well.

It appears that at a certain point in time in the future, maybe over Taiwan, maybe over another issue, China and America will probably come in conflict.

And to all the people who say communism killed millions and millions of people. Capitalism has the same amount of people as well.
 
I think not
#3
Quote: Originally Posted by Jersay

And to all the people who say communism killed millions and millions of people. Capitalism has the same amount of people as well.

Oh? Do tell.
 
jimmoyer
#4
You're right on Taiwan.

America had a time in it history called MANIFEST DESTINY
and you're seeing the same cultural idea in CHINA.

It is MANIFEST DESTINY for China to resume control
of Taiwan. It's a culture of thinking that unites all
in China.
 
Jersay
#5
First with the conflict with Communism;

The Ukranian Starvation of 1917, where several million people died. Capitalist countries could have given aid to the Ukrainian people but as Bordon said in 1917;

"they are just commies, let them starve."

Pinochet, who with CIA support, overthrew the Chilian Socialist regime that had been democratically elected. Resulting in the deaths of thousands of people

The corrupt Batista Regime in Cuba before Castro.

Nicoragua, and the overthrow of the Sadintist government in Nicaragua.

And other places as well.

Capitalism or links is connected to the slave-trade, the Atlantic slave trade that killed at least 100 million people +. And the colonialist practices that eliminated the North and South American natives.
 
Jersay
#6
Quote:

You're right on Taiwan.

America had a time in it history called MANIFEST DESTINY
and you're seeing the same cultural idea in CHINA.

It is MANIFEST DESTINY for China to resume control
of Taiwan. It's a culture of thinking that unites all
in China.

Yeah, America's manifest destiny is to take over Canada. China's is Taiwan.

Doesn't mean the Manifest destinies of either country will ever take place. But it will lead to some form of conflict.
 
I think not
#7
So basically you are defining an equal amount of deaths through capitalism by association?
 
jimmoyer
#8
Americans would be surprised to find that out.
Oy veh.
 
Jersay
#9
Quote:

So basically you are defining an equal amount of deaths through capitalism by association?

Not with America's actions in South America it is not association. It is direct action.

And mercantile system is just capitalism.
 
Colpy
#10
An education for Jersay:

Quote:

First with the conflict with Communism;

The Ukranian Starvation of 1917, where several million people died. Capitalist countries could have given aid to the Ukrainian people but as Bordon said in 1917;

"they are just commies, let them starve."

The Great Ukraine famine was in 1932-33. estimates of the deaths caused runs between 7 and 14 million persons. Stalin planed and carried out the policies that caused famine with an eye to the genocidal elimination of a people he did not trust.

Quote:

Pinochet, who with CIA support, overthrew the Chilian Socialist regime that had been democratically elected. Resulting in the deaths of thousands of people

A terrible thing, the overthrow of Allende. And Pinochet was a despot. But the deaths are measured in the tens of thousands. It seems most communist murdering sprees are counted by millions of victims.

Quote:

The corrupt Batista Regime in Cuba before Castro.

Likewise,Batista was an SOB. Likewise, he murdered a bunch of people. Thousands, not millions.

Quote:

Nicoragua, and the overthrow of the Sadintist government in Nicaragua.

Excuse me, but the overthrow of the Sandinista government (to its' credit) occured at the ballot box. They were defeated in elections, and stood aside.

Quote:

Capitalism or links is connected to the slave-trade, the Atlantic slave trade that killed at least 100 million people +. And the colonialist practices that eliminated the North and South American natives

Excuse me, but during the 350 years of the trans-Atlantic slave trade, at most 11 million blacks were transported. A large portion of those were not transported by capitalists, as that system didn't exist. As well, considering the number of black descendents there are in the western hemisphere, a large portion of those transported survived. 100 million deaths is out to lunch. Period.
 
I think not
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by Jersay

Quote:

So basically you are defining an equal amount of deaths through capitalism by association?

Not with America's actions in South America it is not association. It is direct action.

And mercantile system is just capitalism.

Ok, if thats what you believe, good for you.
 
Jersay
#12
Quote:

Excuse me, but during the 350 years of the trans-atlantic slave trade, at most 11 million blacks were transported. A large portion of those were not transported by capitalists, as that system didn't exist. As well, considering the number of black descendents there are in the western hemisphere, a large portion of those transported survived. 100 million deaths is out to lunch. Period.

I think the transport of 10 million - 11 million people is too small.

In Jamaica, 720,000 slaves in 18th century at start of century, by the end there was only 200,000 slaves left.

And I don't mean just the travel, the mutinies that take place, the training, the getting of slaves, and the ones that died on ships that sank, through the use of sabotage, or violence, or war between nations.

Also, Lenin believes that the First World war was because of capitalism, which he says, the capitalist nations got too big so they had to compete against each other. So you could add on 20 million people.

And there was a faminine in 1917. I believe.
 
I think not
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by Jay

Let's discuss it.

I know there are some posters here with an incredible amount of knowledge about this subject from both sides of the fence.

East vs. West?
Right vs. Wrong?

Was Soviet expansionism a threat?

Did WWII play a significant role?

Did the US actually win this or is it a facade?

The Cold War was hot in some area's....

Let's have it.

Simple, communism is a disease and the United States and its allies are the cure.
 
Jersay
#14
Quote:

Simple, communism is a disease and the United States and its allies are the cure.

Communism is a different way of being, different to capitalism, and as a reaction the cold war started.
 
jimmoyer
#15
The communism you speak of was in no way
the real thing. It was the label, but nothing about it
was communism in the Marxian sense.


In addition either kind of communism, the ersatz kind or the
real kind is deficient for one reason.

It does not closely parallel the psychology of human beings.
 
I think not
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by Jersay

Quote:

Simple, communism is a disease and the United States and its allies are the cure.

Communism is a different way of being, different to capitalism, and as a reaction the cold war started.

Communism in it's practical form as evidenced and documented by history requires a total surrender of personal freedom and privacy and is against the very fabric of human nature, indviduality.
 
Jersay
#17
Socialism which is totally connected to communism, and communism in its goal was to have a total equality of the classes right.

Some would claim that would be through getting rid of the upper-classes through elimination, but that was the goal of communism, wasn't it.

Equality of the classes.
 
I think not
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by Jersay

Socialism which is totally connected to communism, and communism in its goal was to have a total equality of the classes right.

Some would claim that would be through getting rid of the upper-classes through elimination, but that was the goal of communism, wasn't it.

Equality of the classes.

In the current status of human psychological evolution, a true communist system is impossible since we have not yet evolved away from selfish tendencies. While there is certain joy to be thinking of the hippie-like euphoria of a true communal paradise, such a place can only exist in your mind.
 
I think not
#19
Jersay, here's a list I found online, not to be taken as documentary evidence, but it's a start:

 
the caracal kid
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by I think not

Quote: Originally Posted by Jersay

Socialism which is totally connected to communism, and communism in its goal was to have a total equality of the classes right.

Some would claim that would be through getting rid of the upper-classes through elimination, but that was the goal of communism, wasn't it.

Equality of the classes.

In the current status of human psychological evolution, a true communist system is impossible since we have not yet evolved away from selfish tendencies. While there is certain joy to be thinking of the hippie-like euphoria of a true communal paradise, such a place can only exist in your mind.

indeed, the only successful systems strike the proper balance between the individual and the society.
 
jimmoyer
#21
The only reason Marxism or even ersatz communism
got support from the intellectual left is that they
are searching for some antedote to the problems
of capitalism.



But this antedote is ultimately worse.

We can see this where-ever this antedote is applied.
The overall wealth and productivity of such societies
is stifled.
 
Jersay
#22
Interesting ITN.
 
ElPolaco
#23
A major problem is that most of the free market private property cultists automatically classify anyone who doesn't agree with them as a "stalinist" and ignore all the many years of political-economic-social thought dealing with other alternative systems. When I even mention that I'm a personalist who tends towards a form of "socialism" (public assistance to the development and aid to family businesses and municipalization of major manufactoring) and immediately I'm responsible for the excesses of the russian civil war, the stalinist famine and purges, the takeover of eastern europe and the castro executions. It's equivalent to me holding the owner of a McDuck's franchise responsible for the slave trade, european colonialism, the extermination of the Native Americans and all the oppressive US supported third world dictatorships.
 
I think not
#24
Sounds about right.



















Just kidding :P
 
missile
#25
I have just read of a prediction of the new upcoming Cold War..only this time it is with China. This is entirely possible, when you consider the human rights violations committed there and its ever increasing military.
 
Jay
#26
I think it has already started...
 
ElPolaco
#27
Maybe you guys up there are getting into it with China. Down here we can't. That's WalMart's production department. The US is busy starting a cold war with Venezuela.
 
zara86tech
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by Colpy View Post

An education for Jersay:



The Great Ukraine famine was in 1932-33. estimates of the deaths caused runs between 7 and 14 million persons. Stalin planed and carried out the policies that caused famine with an eye to the genocidal elimination of a people he did not trust.



A terrible thing, the overthrow of Allende. And Pinochet was a despot. But the deaths are measured in the tens of thousands. It seems most communist murdering sprees are counted by millions of victims.



Likewise,Batista was an SOB. Likewise, he murdered a bunch of people. Thousands, not millions.



Excuse me, but the overthrow of the Sandinista government (to its' credit) occured at the ballot box. They were defeated in elections, and stood aside.



Excuse me, but during the 350 years of the trans-Atlantic slave trade, at most 11 million blacks were transported. A large portion of those were not transported by capitalists, as that system didn't exist. As well, considering the number of black descendents there are in the western hemisphere, a large portion of those transported survived. 100 million deaths is out to lunch. Period.

The Great Ukraine famine was in 1932-33. estimates of the deaths caused runs between 7 and 14 million persons. Stalin planed and carried out the policies that caused famine with an eye to the genocidal elimination of a people he did not trust.

Sorry, but this events were in all USSR territory.

Quote: Originally Posted by zara86tech View Post

The Great Ukraine famine was in 1932-33. estimates of the deaths caused runs between 7 and 14 million persons. Stalin planed and carried out the policies that caused famine with an eye to the genocidal elimination of a people he did not trust.

Sorry, but this events were in all USSR territory.

In 1928, Stalin introduced the First Five-Year Plan for building a socialist economy. While encompassing the internationalism expressed by Lenin throughout the Revolution, it also aimed to build socialism in one country. In industry, the state assumed control over all existing enterprises and undertook an intensive program of industrialization. In agriculture, rather than adhering to the "lead by example" policy advocated by Lenin,[20] forced collectivisation of farms was implemented all over the country.
Famines ensued, causing millions of deaths; surviving kulaks were persecuted and many sent to Gulags to do forced labour.[21] Social upheaval continued in the mid-1930s. Stalin's Great Purge resulted in the execution or detainment of many "Old Bolsheviks" who had participated in the October Revolution with Lenin. According to declassified Soviet archives, in 1937 and 1938, the NKVD arrested more than one and a half million people, of whom 681,692 were shot – an average of 1,000 executions a day.[22] The excess deaths during the 1930s as a whole were in the range of 10–11 million.[23] Yet despite the turmoil of the mid-to-late 1930s, the Soviet Union developed a powerful industrial economy in the years before World War II.

Most of Gulags were located on territory of my country.
 
The Old Medic
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by Jay View Post

Let's discuss it. .


Let's not discuss it here. It is way too complex a subject to be talked to death by people that mostly don't really know much about it (but THINK that they do).
 
Locutus
#30
The good old days.

Avro's Arrow - Canadian Interceptor - Cold War - YouTube
 

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