Shame on Canada! re: Propaganda and Canada's Support of Ethnic Cleansing.


earth_as_one
#1
Reading through the posts on this forum about Israel, its obvious that many people here have common misperceptions based on Zionist propaganda, not objective facts.

Zionism
Zionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even people who recognize atrocities when they see them are not fully aware of how pervasive Zionist propaganda has become in our perceptions regarding Israel.

What's going on in the Palestine region of the middle east isn't an Arab/Muslim/Jewish war. That's a Zionist manufactured perception which immediately links these events to centuries of Jewish oppression leading to the holocaust.

What's going on in Palestine and the surrounding area is war between Zionists and the people who had the misfortune of living on land Zionists believe God gave to Jews. In other words this conflict is about ethnic cleansing, not anti-semiticism.

Here are some other facts:

Judaism is a religion, not a race.

Not all Jews support Zionism or Israel.

Not all Arabs or Palestinians support violence or Hamas.
Bil'in - Discover Bil'in

Muslims and Jews peacefully co-existed for centuries before Zionism. Not only were Jews tolerated in many Arab countries, some Muslim/Arab nations welcomed and invited Jewish immigration.

The Ottomans who controlled Palestine for centuries before WW I were especially friendly toward Jews. Jews were for the most part were protected as long as they paid their taxes and supported their government. Jews held high offices in the Ottoman bureaucracy, ran successful businesses and were respected doctors, lawyers and other professionals. The Ottomans allowed Jews to travel to and live in any part of their empire including the region known as Palestine. That changed when Zionists arrived in Palestine over 100 years ago and began harrassing the locals and committing violent acts.

Israeli source describing Jewish/Ottoman/Turkish relations
Brief History of Turkish Jews

Serious trouble between Arabs and Jews in Arab nations really began in 1947 as a result of Zionists atrocities committed against Arabs in Palestine which met and continue to meet the definition of ethnic cleansing.

Israeli Historian Ilan Pappe regarding Zionist Ethnic Cleansing
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by Ilan Pappe


Over the next decades rising Arab anti-semiticism pushed most Jews out of most Arab countries. Israel was seen as a safe haven. But not all Jews who left Arab countries immigrated to Israel. Many came to US, Canada and South America. Some Arab countries, like Iran protected their Jewish citizens and they still have thriving Jewish communities today. If this was a war between Arabs/Muslims and Jews as portrayed by Zionist propaganda then Iranian Jews and other Jews living in Arab/Muslim countries would be treated as poorly as Israeli Arabs (including Palestinians).

What's going on today in Gaza is the latest chapter in a Zionist ethnic cleansing war of Palestine which began in 1947. Since 1947, Zionists have effectively wiped Palestine off the map. But they still have a problem with the original residents and their descendents.

In the past, it was relatively easy for Zionists who are influential in Western Governments and the news media to control western perceptions through well established propaganda techniques. Effectively they were able to create a misperception that the oppressor was a victim and the oppressed deserved oppression. Many people in Canada and other western nations still have this misperception.

But the world has changed since 1947. Propaganda techniques which worked back then won't work now. Because of the internet, youtube and forums like this, people can find out for themselves and see what's going on in the world rather than having a controlled and filtered corporate/government view which favors the Zionists.

Israel and the Zionists who control Israel still use propaganda in an attempt to control our perceptions. For example, Israel's propaganda regarding a rocket crisis fooled most of the same gullible people who believed Iraq was a WMD threat and Saddam Hussein was working with al Qaeda. Look at the posts here on this forum as proof.

But if you are aware of the facts in this video below, you realize that Israel's leaders deliberately started this battle for purely selfish reasons.

Israeli official confirms Israel violated its true with Hamas first:
YouTube - Israel comfirm that Hamas doesn't broke the truce

Here is an Israeli government document confirms Israel violated the truce:
Quote:

4. An analysis of the situation on the ground indicates two distinct periods:

i) A period of relative quiet between June 19 and November 4 : As of June 19, there was a marked reduction in the extent of attacks on the western Negev population. The lull was sporadically violated by rocket and mortar shell fire, carried out by rogue terrorist organizations, in some instance in defiance of Hamas (especially by Fatah and Al-Qaeda supporters). Hamas was careful to maintain the ceasefire. The IDF refrained from undertaking counterterrorism activities in the Gaza Strip, taking only routine defensive security measures along the border fence. Between June 19 and November 4, 20 rockets (three of which fell inside the Gaza Strip) and 18 mortar shells (five of which fell inside the Gaza Strip) were fired at Israel .

ii) The escalation and erosion of the lull arrangement, November 4 to the time of this writing, December 17 2: On November 4 the IDF carried out a military action close to the border security fence on the Gazan side to prevent an abduction planned by Hamas, which had dug a tunnel under the fence to that purpose. Seven Hamas terrorist operatives were killed during the action. In retaliation, Hamas and the other terrorist organizations attacked Israel with a massive barrage of rockets.

The Six Months of the Lull Arrangement

Most Canadians are unaware of these facts because our government and our news support Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity and they want to keep us misinformed and manipulated. Our misperceptions of the events which led to Israel committing war crimes in Gaza are a direct result of deliberate Canadian government/news media misinformation and propaganda. As a result many Canadians inadvertaly support war crimes and crimes against humanity.

The war crimes and crimes against humanity committed by Israel in Gaza since Israel deliberately broke the ceasefire on November 4, 2008 will eventually come back to haunt Israelis and the west. Each atrocity committed by Israel in Gaza like their war crimes in Lebanon in 2006 can be seen more clearly and unfiltered by more people that at any time in the past.

Israel gained nothing materially during this latest battle in their Palestinain ethnic cleansing war and their security situation will become more grave over time. 1.5 billion Arabs and Muslims witnessed the atrocities thanks to the proliferation of portable video recording devices in Gaza. Thousands of young Arabs and Muslims all over the world have probably volunteered for anti-Israel organizations like Hezbollah and Hamas or anti-west organizations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The long term implications of Israel's atrocities in Gaza are grave, not only for Israel but also western interests throughout the middle east.

An analysis of the facts supports the conclusion that Israel's leaders started this current orgy of violence for purely selfish reasons related to an upcoming election in Israel. Their war crimes have nothing to do with Hamas rockets because at the time they started this crisis, Hamas wasn't firing any rockets at Israel and was arresting anyone who did.

Israeli news source backing up this fact
Hamas arrests Gaza rocket cell - Israel News, Ynetnews

November 20, 2008 Human Rights Watch open letter to Hamas about their rocket attacks against Israel which supports this fact.
Letter to Hamas to Stop Rocket Attacks | Human Rights Watch

Israel's leaders knew their opponents in the Knesset would hammer them in upcoming elections over their mishandling of the 2006 battle with Hezbollah in Lebanon. They needed a "successful" battle in order to silence their critics. One or two rocket attacks a month and Hamas arresting those responsible isn't a crisis. In order to manuacture a perception of a crisis, they planned and ordered an attack on Hamas in violation of the truce. The resulting reprisals from Hamas, tit-for-tat escalations were an excuse they manipulated through propaganda into percieved justification for a war they wanted just in time for Israeli elections.

The date Israel's leaders chose to deliberately and clearly violate the truce and provoke Hamas was November 4, 2008. The same day the US and the world was distracted by Barack Obama's election. Hamas's reaction to Israeli raids and targeted assassinations which killed six Hamas members was predicable. Hamas responded with the only weapons in their arsenal: rockets. Those limited attacks which resulted in no deaths were in turn used to deliberately escalate a truce into open conflict. By the time the ceasefire officially ended in December 2008, it no longer existed.

Israel's leaders deliberately manipulated events and told selective truths in order to justify an invasion into one of the world's most densely populated areas where the civilians have no place to run or hide. That action is a war crime and a crime against humanity which a majority of Canadians support. Shame on Canada!

If you want to think for yourself and avoid being manipulated by propaganda into supporting atrocities, you need to understand how propaganda works and recognize it.

I recommend reading this link:
Manufacturing Consent

Here is a two hour documentary which will make you aware of propaganda and open your eyes regarding many world events you may have thought you understood:
Manufacturing_Consent.wmv

We are still being manipulated by propaganda. This video is a good example of Palestinian demonizing propaganda.
YouTube - Hamas terrorists kill innocent Palestinian in Gaza (Rare Video) (Must See)

Likely the video itself is undoctored (truth based) but the narration/explanation is certainly manipulative and uses many well known propaganda techniques. However if you were aware that Fatah and Hamas fought a civil war and were hostile toward each other, you would be aware of alternate possibilities explaining the images in the video. In order for that propganda to be effective, you have to accept what the narrator tells you without thinking about it too much.

The Israeli propaganda ministry probably went through hundreds of videos until they settled on one they decided would be the most effective at manipulating people into believing Palestinians are inherently evil and deserving punishment/death.

The Nazis did the same thing to Jews. They started with truths. Mixed in misinformation and lies and manufactured a distorted perception of Judaism. Most Germans bought the anti-Semitic propaganda which is why so many Germans failed to speak up or act during the holocaust and others volunteered to work in the death camps.

Canada's pro-Israeli ethnic cleansing propaganda is just as manipulative and potentially just as dangerous. We have been exposed to selective truths and incorrect information to create pro-Israeli pro-ethnic cleansing misperceptions regarding this conflict. For example:
AFP: Canada blames Hamas for civilian casualties in Gaza

As a result most Canadians support Israel's war crimes and crimes against humanity. Canadians aren't more immune from propaganda than Germans.

Sure Arabs have their propaganda too. But its more focused on the Arab world. Which means unless you speak Arabic you wouldn't understand most of it and culturally it doesn't push our hot buttons. As a result its far less effective on westerners.

Some people here incorrectly percieve me as pro-Palestine. That's false. I don't support war crimes or war criminals and openly denounce them. It would be more accurate to describe me as against oppression and injustice and supporting peace and non-violent resistance.

I recognize Hamas and other Palestinian militant groups have committed atrocities. Hamas atrocities are responsible for about 28 deaths since 2001.
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Q&A: Gaza conflict

I also recognize that Jews have suffered centuries of injustice and oppression, mostly in Europe, but also around the world including Palestine. But I refuse to allow war criminals and evil people to use these facts regarding Jewish suffering to manipulate me through propaganda into supporting their crimes against humanity.

My conscience and morality compels me to speak out against war crimes and crimes against humanity. Speaking out against oppression and injustice is one way to help the oppressed achieve freedom and justice.

I speak out for the same reason as this Jewish MP in the British Parliament speaks out:
Quote:

YouTube - UK Jewish MP: Israel acting like Nazis in Gaza
Jewish MP: Israel acting like Nazis in Gaza

Quotes from above:
"My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza.

The present Israeli government ruthlessly and cynically exploits the continuing guilt from gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the Holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians."

Israel will never achieve peace through conquest. Israel's leaders aren't just war criminals, they're also fools.

If humanity doesn't end our violent ways, we will eventually and inevitably kill each other.
Quote:

Why the future doesn't need us.
Our most powerful 21st-century technologies - robotics, genetic engineering, and nanotech - are threatening to make humans an endangered species.
By Bill Joy

Wired 8.04: Why the future doesn't need us.

Our longterm survival from extinction depends on ridding ourselves of our primitive war-like tendencies.

I focus primarily on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict because its one conflict where our government and most Canadians have sided with war criminals and evil people.

Canada plays an active role helping Israel kill thousands and oppress and imprison millions. All Canadians should have a problem with that. I hope that Canadians of good conscience will make themselves aware of the facts in this conflict and speak out.
Last edited by earth_as_one; Jan 18th, 2009 at 02:41 PM..
 
darkbeaver
Republican
#2
what is s.ytimg.com?
 
lone wolf
Free Thinker
#3
"...That action is a war crime and a crime against humanity which a majority of Canadians support. Shame on Canada! ..."

A shame on Canada is a broad brush. If you're going to preach against stereotyping and propaganda, please don't use it in your own posts....
 
earth_as_one
#4
I was referring to a majority of Canada's leaders, our media and Canadians. Not all Canadians. The minority who are aware should be ashamed of Canada because of this:

Quote:

Shame! Canada's Singular Support of Israel's Crimes at the United Nations Human Rights Commission
by C. L. Cook
It begins with the lies told a supine and disinterested populace; big lies are best history advises, if you are to commit big crimes. From the lie come the policies, rationalized by the lie, and codified by the lie's repetition. Tell a lie often enough and it becomes truth we're informed.

But there comes a point where the lies cannot bear the light of truth, and Canada is coming to just such an unearthing of the ugly truth behind its present masters' ethical bankruptcy.

Monday January 12, 2009 saw Canada's government, as represented by Stephen Harper's minority Tories, stand in defense of the mighty in the form of Israel's military machine, currently chewing up the near defenseless Palestinians trapped in Gaza.






True to form, Canada's monopolist media uttered hardly a word about this disgraceful abrogation of the precepts of human rights, often espoused as the founding principles of Canada. For millions of Canadians, the news of what "their" country has come to represent is yet not known.

The truth of its cowardly refusal to condemn, as did 33 other members of the U.N. Human Rights Commission, Israel's grotesque and wanton slaughter of the innocents of Gaza and the rest of remnant Palestine in their hundreds, maiming thousands more, and rendering tens of thousands shelterless in the teeth of winter brings an end to the comfortable lie: Canada cares about human dignity and the rights accorded to humans as basic principles, as so ceremoniously signed by it in declaration after declaration at the United Nations.

On January 12, 2009, Canada stood alone among the 47 nations of the U.N.H.R.C., 33 of those desperate to see an end to Israel's bombardment of the trapped population of the Gaza Strip, in opposition to that body's resolution of condemnation of Israel's actions these last terrible weeks.

Surrounded by eight meter high walls on three sides, and the deep blue sea on the fourth, Palestinians, civilians and officials of the hated Hamas government alike, have no place of refuge to run to within the oldest refugee camp in the world. Overhead, helicopter gunships, aerial drones, and F-16 fighter jets wheel and turn, spitting fire and steel into the single-most densely peopled area on the planet.

Watching the horror recorded through telephoto lenses from the safety of the Israeli-claimed territory beyond the concrete and razor wire girding Gaza, the Canadian government still assumes the Israeli Defense Force line, which states: Those being slaughtered pose an existential threat to the survival of Israel.

And so, the slaughter must not be halted, nor even criticized for the abomination it clearly is. Is there a single word in the entirety of the English lexicon to describe this craven disregard of humanity and abandonment of morality?

Obscenity hardly describes it fully, but obscene it certainly is....

Shame! Canada's Singular Support of Israel's Crimes | Pacific Free Press - Hard Truths for Hard Times - Progressive opinion, dissident news

 
darkbeaver
Republican
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolf View Post

"...That action is a war crime and a crime against humanity which a majority of Canadians support. Shame on Canada! ..."

A shame on Canada is a broad brush. If you're going to preach against stereotyping and propaganda, please don't use it in your own posts....

Still I can't imagine braging about it, somebodys got to wear it.
 
lone wolf
Free Thinker
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver View Post

Still I can't imagine braging about it, somebodys got to wear it.

It fits the Harper crowd. They're less than half of all Canadians....
 
Scott Free
Free Thinker
#7
The government is simply reserving their right to kill children in Quebec should they decide to separate.
 
Nuggler
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolf View Post

It fits the Harper crowd. They're less than half of all Canadians....


Let's hope they are in a tiny tiny minority when parliament resumes, and we can turf that drooling Bushkissing freak. May as well as he won't have anyone to tell him what to do now.

And the GG at the same time for her kissing up to Harpo.

Lessee, gotta be some more.........

 
tracy
#9
It's a very arrogant view to assume people who don't agree with you 100% are just uninformed. Maybe they just disagree.
 
darkbeaver
Republican
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by Scott Free View Post

The government is simply reserving their right to kill children in Quebec should they decide to separate.

That is a chilling bit of truth eh.
 
earth_as_one
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by tracy View Post

It's a very arrogant view to assume people who don't agree with you 100% are just uninformed. Maybe they just disagree.

Tracy: Is this directed at me?

I am aware that some people who disagree with me are informed. Shame on them. They support Israel's recent war crimes which have killed about 1250 people and injured thousands more most of whom were innocent civilians. Israel's actions are war crimes because they were deliberate and unprovoked. I can and will prove this.

I'm also aware that most Canadians who support what Israel has done know little about this conflict and most of what they do "know" comes from pro-Israeli propaganda.

Here are a few provable facts of which most Canadians remain uniformed:

Few Canadians know that not only did Hamas start out respecting the six month June 19, 2008 truce, they also arrested rogue elements in Gaza which tried to restart the violence:

See item 4 in this Israeli source
The Six Months of the Lull Arrangement

Also this news item:
Reuters AlertNet - Hamas arrests first rocket squads since truce

Few Canadians know that Israel started this latest battle with raids into Gaza on November 4, 2008 which killed about half a dozen members of Hamas, not in December 2008:

Gaza truce broken as Israeli raid kills six Hamas gunmen | World news | guardian.co.uk

YouTube - Israel admits No Hamas rockets were fired during ceasefire

Most Canadians know Hamas fired rockets at Israel after November 4, 2008 in violation of the terms of the truce. Our news more than adequately covered these events. But few Canadians know about the Israeli raids which preceded and provoked these attacks. BTW, there was an election in the US on November 4, 2008, the same day as the Israeli raids. Was that a coincidence or deliberately timed?

Few Canadians know Hamas repeatedly offered to return to the truce provided Israel abide by its original terms. (stop attacking Gazans and allow the free flow of humanitarian food and medicine into Gaza).

Few Canadians know that after November 4, 2008 Israel continued bombing Gaza, assassinating Hamas members and starving Gazans in response to Hamas's truce offers and in violation of the terms of the truce.

From the time Israel and Hamas agreed to a ceasefire on June 19, 2008 until the Israeli raid which killed half a dozen Hamas members on November 4, 2008, only 18 rockets were fired from Gaza. None of these rockets were fired by Hamas and none resulted in any deaths. From the time Israel violated their truce with Hamas on November 4, 2008 until Israel began a wholesale bombardment of Gaza on December 27, 2008 (killing approximately 300 Gazans including deliberately bombing a group of police cadets at their graduation ceremony), not a single Israeli had been killed by any rockets fired from Gaza. More Israelis were killed by car accidents and lightening than during this "crisis".

Most Canadians believed Israel faced a rocket crisis from Gaza and had no choice but to respond to violence with violence. That perception was a result of deliberate misinformation by Israel which our news reported as fact.

Most Canadians believe that Hamas is not willing to have a longterm peace agreement with Israel. That is more pro-death and destruction Israeli propaganda:

From the Israeli News just days after Israel's November 4, 2008 attack:
Quote:

09/11/2008 ...the Hamas government had agreed to accept a Palestinian state that followed the 1967 borders and to offer Israel a long-term hudna, or truce, if Israel recognized the Palestinians' national rights.

...asked Haniyeh about Hamas' relations with Iran and requested his response to the claims of "our Zionist friends" that Hamas, like Iran, seeks to destroy the State of Israel and throw the Jews into the sea.

"Our ties with Iran are like those with other Muslim states. Does a besieged people that is waiting breathlessly for a ship to come from the sea want to throw the Jews into the ocean? Our conflict is not with the Jews, our problem is with the occupation," Haniyeh said....

Haniyeh: Hamas willing to accept Palestinian state with 1967 borders - Haaretz - Israel News

The facts prove that Israel never respected its truce obligations from the start while Hamas did.

The facts prove that Israel deliberately provoked Hamas into breaking the truce on November 4, 2008 while Americans and the world were busy watching the American elections.

The facts prove that Israel could have stopped Hamas rocket attacks at any time just by agreeing to respect their original truce obligations.

What the facts imply is that Israel's leaders they made decisions and gave orders they knew would provoke Hamas and justify invading Gaza in December 2008.

Is it a coincidence that Israel has declared a "unilateral" truce in time for Barack Obama's inauguration this weekend?

Is a coincidence that Israel's elections are just three weeks away and that Israel's leaders were facing defeat as a result of their failures regarding their handling of the 2006 battle with Hezbollah? Now suddenly as a result of this "crisis" they have risen in the polls, just like Bush did after September 11, 2001 and after the Iraq invasion.... Hmmmmm suspicious????

Call me cynical, but I believe Israel's leaders care more about getting re-elected than about turning Gaza into a war zone and killing people who can't vote in Israeli elections.

In a nutshell, that's why I believe 1250 people died in Gaza in the last three weeks...

Am I more informed than most Canadians regarding this conflict? You tell me.
 
lone wolf
Free Thinker
#12
Many (I won't say most for I don't have figures to back me up) Canadians also know Hamas is just as much the shyte disturber as its counterpart in Israel. The sooner those little minds and extremists from both sides of the craziness are banished to the neitherworld, the sooner may come peace to the region.
 
earth_as_one
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolf View Post

Many (I won't say most for I don't have figures to back me up) Canadians also know Hamas is just as much the shyte disturber as its counterpart in Israel. The sooner those little minds and extremists from both sides of the craziness are banished to the neitherworld, the sooner may come peace to the region.

I'm not sure if you got my point. I wasn't defending Hamas if that's how you interpreted the above. I was pointing out that our news and leaders are laying the 100% blame on them for all the death and destruction in Gaza, when the facts simply don't support that conclusion.

Hamas must take some responsibility for what has happened. But most of the blame should be placed on Israel's leaders who deliberately broke their agreements and gave Hamas few choices but to resort to violence.

Look at the facts in my post above. They support the conclusion that Israel never respected the terms of the ceasefire from the begining and blatantly provoked Hamas into responding to violence with violence. Clearly Israel's leaders were never interested in peacefully coexisting with Hamas.

This latest battle wasn't about a Gaza missile crisis. There was no missile crisis.

Israel gained nothing as a result of this war. 1300 Palestinians died, about 5000 more wounded and what little existed of Gaza's civil infrastructure has been laid to waste. But Hamas still exists. They still have their rockets and the ability to fire them at Israel.

The only people who gained in this were Israel's current leaders. They now have a chance at winning the next election in about three weeks.

Part of the problem is us. I mean people here in Canada and in the US. Our leaders would act differently if they thought their "unshakeable" support for Israel would cost them politically. Israel would treat Palestinians differently if they thought our support was conditional on respecting international laws, treaties and conventions, respecting human rights....

Now that the fighting is over, I expect we will go back to ignoring Palestinian suffering.

I would agree that Hamas didn't have to respond to violence with violence and that makes them part of the problem.

But their situation was pretty desperate. Consider their situation from their viewpoint:

Hamas was democratically elected the leader of Palestine in universally acknowledged free and fair elections. In response the world ignores Hamas and has imposed crippling economic stanctions. The US and Israel arms Hamas's political opponents and supported their takeover of the West bank. Despite their attempt to remove Hamas from power in Gaza, Hamas remain in control after fighting a civil war. In response Israel who controls Gaza's borders, has severely imposed a complete blockade and severely restricted food and medicine from entering Gaza. 1.5 million Gazans suffer disease and malnutrition as a result. Hamas agrees to a six month truce in return for food and medicine. For four months Israel continues to block food and medicine from entering Gaza while repeatedly launching military raids into Gaza and shooting at Gaza civilians in violation of the truce. The UN and most of the world doesn't care or notice any of Israel's ceasefire violations. Its been four months and Hamas has gotten nothing in return for maintaining their side of the truce as best they can. Gazans are slowly starving and children are wasting away.

You criticize Hamas, but given their situation, how would you respond to an Israel attack into Gaza which killed six of members of Hamas? Its November 4, 2008 and the US has just elected Barack Obama. What decision would you make that would end the suffering of 1.5 million Gazans?

If any arm chair presidents and prime ministers would like to weigh in, please feel free.
Last edited by earth_as_one; Jan 19th, 2009 at 09:10 AM..
 
missile
Conservative
#14
Let the Arab nations take care of the Palestinians and the only thing we Canadians should worry about is getting our share of the re arming of the warring parties. We make weapons systems too,eh?
 
tracy
#15
Earth, it certainly seems from most of your posts that you are painting Hamas as the innocent victims of the crazy 100% at fault Israelis. That's my problem with your pov. And yes, my comment was directed at you. I'm not a completely uninformed person and I don't agree with you. I don't think Hamas is an innocent victim and Israel is trying to ethnically cleanse the area through military action. I get the impression you do. Even in your last post, you say you feel Hamas has some of the blame BUT....

"But" to me means "ignore everything I said before that word and I will now justify everything they did which I said was wrong".... They want to live in peace with Israel, they respect Jews, they want only peace, they are completely reasonable, it's not their fault missiles from their land have never completely stopped... Some of us don't think so. Had Yasser Arafat accepted the pretty decent peace deal he was offered a decade ago things may be very different there. He didn't and now his people are still paying the price. I think that's tragic. I don't think it's ethnic cleansing. If Israel wanted to cleanse those areas of Arabs/muslims, they could have done it a LOOOOOOOONNNNNNGGGGG time ago. No other country on earth would be expected to show the kind of restraint Israel is. One missile fired into the US from Mexico and Mexico would be bombed into the stone age. I realize the US did steal parts of the country from Mexico after a war... hmmm... who does that remind me of....? All the same, they'd respond MUCH more aggressively. The instinct for self preservation will make people do some really extreme things. I see that on both sides of this conflict.
 
Socrates the Greek
#16
Israel bashers stop being hypocrites, and by that I mean any of you believing this garbage of Zionism think this one out.


IF YOU WERE A JEW AND YOUR PEOPLE WERE ONLY 13,000,0000 VERSES 110,000,000 ARABS AS WELL 50 MILLION IRANIANS AND YOUR PEOPLE WERE TOLD REPEATEDLY BY THE MAJORITY OF 110,000,000 NON JEW ARABS AS WELL THE MAJORITY OF 50 MILLION IRANIANS,

“WE WILL FLUSH YOU IN THE OCEAN”,

WHILE YOUR PEOPLE HAD 640 TIMES LESS LAND THEN THAT OF THE ARABS, WHO DO YOU THINK IS THE AGGRESSOR HERE????????????????????????????????

One thing that is indisputable here is that Israel is the defender and Iran along with the Arabs who BOTH hate the JEWS, USE THE Palestinians in Gaza TO MAKE THE JEWS LOOK AS THE AGGRESSOR.

If some one wants to flash you into the sea what are you going to do?
Invite them for a weekend on your boat to go fishing with?

To any one who thinks that Israel is the perpetrator of the fighting in Gaza wrong and it makes one look like a hypocrite, under the same circumstance you would defend your self and your country.
Last edited by Socrates the Greek; Jan 19th, 2009 at 04:29 PM..
 
lone wolf
Free Thinker
#17
Jews Not Zionists

Maybe it's you who doesn't exist, Sock....
 
Socrates the Greek
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolf View Post

Jews Not Zionists

Maybe it's you who doesn't exist, Sock....

Good day LW, EASY ON THE FRIENDLY FIRE, how can I not exist when I am here?..

LW answer this one for me, if you were a Jew and you lived in that part of the world and majority of your neighbors thought you should not exist because you are not the same skin color as the majority of 110,000,000 Arabs would you move and go were? Or would you stay and drop your last drop of blood to defend a land that is very special to you and your people?
Throwing rocks at me it doesn’t fix the Gaza misery....
 
Ron in Regina
Free Thinker
#19
Good Day to You Socrates!!!! Forums Existentialism.....We complain
(& debate), therefore we exist. Nice! I like it!
 
Socrates the Greek
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by Ron in Regina View Post

Good Day to You Socrates!!!! Forums Existentialism.....We complain
(& debate), therefore we exist. Nice! I like it!

 
lone wolf
Free Thinker
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by Socrates the Greek View Post

Good day LW, EASY ON THE FRIENDLY FIRE, how can I not exist when I am here?..

LW answer this one for me, if you were a Jew and you lived in that part of the world and majority of your neighbors thought you should not exist because you are not the same skin color as the majority of 110,000,000 Arabs would you move and go were? Or would you stay and drop your last drop of blood to defend a land that is very special to you and your people?
Throwing rocks at me it doesn’t fix the Gaza misery....

Denying Zionism doesn't make it go away either. You can cry poor me all you want but you'd best remember folks in Gaza bleed too ... lots when they have to be slaughtered at 100 to 1 ratios.
 
Socrates the Greek
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolf View Post

Denying Zionism doesn't make it go away either. You can cry poor me all you want but you'd best remember folks in Gaza bleed too ... lots when they have to be slaughtered at 100 to 1 ratios.

So what is your saving formula? to get Hamas backed by Iran and try and beat up the Jews? which by the way should a street fight take place between the Israelis and Iran you can be sure Iran will have all it's teeth knocked out by a Nuke.


Israel gave work to unemployed and unwanted Muslim Palestinians way back them but given the infiltration of the Jew haters in Gaza sure the Jews would look like they were keeping to their own. You call that Zionism?
LW I am not here to convince any one or change history to my liking, I am simply saying that all excluding none including my self, if I was a Jew I would defend my country with blood if I was told I because I am a Jew I should die.
And don’t pretend that is not a big part of the Arab Israeli problem
 
lone wolf
Free Thinker
#23
My saving formula remains IDF and Hamas should fire all their weapons two degrees west of straight up then sit down over a bottle of Mogen David. One is as bad as the other.

Go give your buddy Harper a big juicy kiss now....
 
Scott Free
Free Thinker
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver View Post

That is a chilling bit of truth eh.

The scary part for me is how many Canadians would want to kill them.
Last edited by Scott Free; Jan 19th, 2009 at 06:27 PM..
 
MHz
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by Socrates the Greek View Post

So what is your saving formula? to get Hamas backed by Iran and try and beat up the Jews? which by the way should a street fight take place between the Israelis and Iran you can be sure Iran will have all it's teeth knocked out by a Nuke.

You do know that an attack on Iran will be considered to be an attack on Russia, you do know that right?
Asia Times Online :: Middle East News - Attack Iran and you attack Russia

Don't forget you have to get past the S-400 defences LOL Israel risks being shot down over Iraq.
RIA Novosti described the S-400 Triumf -- NATO designation SA-21 Growler -- as being "designed to intercept and destroy airborne targets at a distance of up to 400 kilometers (250 miles) -- twice the range of the U.S. MIM-104 Patriot and 2.5 times that of the S-300PMU-2."
Last edited by MHz; Jan 19th, 2009 at 06:31 PM..
 
earth_as_one
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by tracy View Post

Earth, it certainly seems from most of your posts that you are painting Hamas as the innocent victims of the crazy 100% at fault Israelis. That's my problem with your pov. And yes, my comment was directed at you. I'm not a completely uninformed person and I don't agree with you. I don't think Hamas is an innocent victim and Israel is trying to ethnically cleanse the area through military action. I get the impression you do. Even in your last post, you say you feel Hamas has some of the blame BUT....

"But" to me means "ignore everything I said before that word and I will now justify everything they did which I said was wrong".... They want to live in peace with Israel, they respect Jews, they want only peace, they are completely reasonable, it's not their fault missiles from their land have never completely stopped... Some of us don't think so. Had Yasser Arafat accepted the pretty decent peace deal he was offered a decade ago things may be very different there. He didn't and now his people are still paying the price. I think that's tragic. I don't think it's ethnic cleansing. If Israel wanted to cleanse those areas of Arabs/muslims, they could have done it a LOOOOOOOONNNNNNGGGGG time ago. No other country on earth would be expected to show the kind of restraint Israel is. One missile fired into the US from Mexico and Mexico would be bombed into the stone age. I realize the US did steal parts of the country from Mexico after a war... hmmm... who does that remind me of....? All the same, they'd respond MUCH more aggressively. The instinct for self preservation will make people do some really extreme things. I see that on both sides of this conflict.

Thanks for you post Tracy engaging me in intelligent debate. Your post is well written and polite.

I agree and disagree with your points.

I don't admire Hamas. They aren't people I'd want as neighbors. But Hamas didn't just appear out of nowhere. They are a consequence of decades of oppression and injustice.

Hamas says what they mean and mean what they say. They are honest even even when its counter productive to their cause.

They are able to respect their agreements until Israeli violations render their observance pointless.

They don't appear to be corrupt, which is why they defeated Fatah in general elections.

Despite these atributes, I would not want them running Canada.

They are religious fanatics with an extreme and intolerant viewpoint.

At one point Hamas's leaders were willing to live in peace with Israel during their time and leave it to the next generation to decide what to do next.

I bet you never heard of Abu Shanab. He was the chief Hamas architect behind the 2003 Road map to peace. He negotiated on behalf of Hamas and got all the Palestinian militant groups to agree to the ceasefire:

Quote:

...Paul Hilder: There was some talk recently of the possibility of a hudna, a ceasefire, and then the Israelis assassinated Salah Shehadeh, the leader of your military wing. Why was the hudna being considered?

Ismail Abu Shanab: It was to achieve calmness and live in peace with this generation. To give peace a chance: to discover if the Israelis are willing to live in peace. Because the Americans keep saying that the Palestinians are not serious. "Okay, we are serious about peace. Talk to Sharon.

The nail in the wood: an interview with Ismail Abu Shanab | From Occupied Palestine

Here's how the 2003 roadmap collapsed:
Quote:

...The hudna quickly collapsed. In an IDF operation to arrest Hamas bombmakers, gunfight broke out in which an Israeli soldier and two alleged Hamas militants were killed. Hamas responded with a suicide bombing on August 12, killing one Israeli civilian. Fatah claimed responsibility for a second suicide bombing on August 12, killing another Israeli citizen. Despite this de facto violation of the hudna, Hamas stated that the cease-fire would continue. Hostilities then escalated: the Israeli army killed Islamic Jihad's Muhammad Seeder on August 14; the Jerusalem bus 2 massacre by Hamas and Islamic Jihad on August 19, killed 23 and wounded 136 people ; and Israeli forces killed Hamas' Isma'il Abu-Shanab on August 21. After the killing of the two high-ranking leaders, Hamas eventually called off the hudna[7].

Road map for peace - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Let me respond to your points as questions:

Is Hamas innocent? (of violating their 2008 truce with Israel) No they are guilty of deliberately violating their truce with Israel in response to Israel's blockade of humanitarian relief, their constant and deliberate violent provocations and blatant truce violations.

You claim Israel is justified in attacking Hamas in response to their rocket attacks.

I'd say it depends on who attacked who first. Let's put this another way.

Is Israel justified in attacking Hamas when they aren't firing rockets?
Gaza truce broken as Israeli raid kills six Hamas gunmen | World news | guardian.co.uk

Let's use your test.

Would the United States be justified in responding with force to a Mexican raid into the United States which killed 6 American servicemen?

Is Israel guilty of ethnic cleansing? Absolutely they are. Israel was created as a result of an ethnic cleansing war which continues to this day. Its what Palestinians claimed at the time and has been verified by modern Israeli historians going through recently declassified Israeli military archives...
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by Ilan Pappe

But the ethnic cleansing never stopped. The West Bank is slowly being transformed into a series of prisons just like Gaza.



The last map is a bit out of date, but you get the idea.

This recent UN document describe thousands of Palestinians loosing their homes and property each year as Israel builds thousands of Jewish only homes on the expropriated land. (aka ethnic cleansing)
Quote:


[25 August 2008]

Ongoing Forced Internal Displacement and Dispossession of the Palestinian population in the OPT

A/HRC/9/NGO/24 of 29 August 2008

You have a perception that Arafat turned down a pretty good peace deal. I'll bet that perception comes from Israel, not Arafat:

Read for Arafat's word's for yourself:
Quote:

...Undoubtedly, we cannot agree to exchange lands valuable for agriculture and development, with garbage sites for toxic waste."...

...."it is inconceivable that we accept a proposal punishing the Palestinians and rewarding the illegitimate Israeli settlement policies.

...Not only will it limit the Palestinians' freedom of movement, it will also have severe implications on the development of the Palestinian state. Such a vast annexation will inevitably damage Palestinian water rights."...

MEMRI: Special Dispatch - No. 170

But since then Israel has decided since to build a wall and seize whatever land they want.

Let's try your test again.

If Mexico was busy building a wall inside the US and annexing most of the arable land and water in Texas, New Mexico and California, how would the US react?
 
darkbeaver
Republican
#27
Genocide is restraint? Phosporous is restraint?
 
Scott Free
Free Thinker
#28
The Palestinians seem to have more land than the natives in Canada so obviously they're being completely unreasonable.

I mean that's how the world works right? The good white people move in, take everything, and if you have the temerity to suggest we aren't so entitled we kick the sh!t out of you.
 
darkbeaver
Republican
#29
That's pretty much the programe I guess. But we do bring good sound economics though, ya got to give us that much eh.
 
Scott Free
Free Thinker
#30
Sure, if exploiting the planet into destruction is good and sound.
 

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