Alberta Education vs Ontario Education: which is more progressive?


Machjo
#1
The Ministry of Education of Alberta not only treats all religions equally in its funding practices, but also allows Cree and Blackfoot, among other languages, to fulfil second-language requirements for highschool graduation.

The Ontario Ministry of Education officially discriminates on the basis of religion in its fundig practices and recognizes only French as being able to fulfil second-language requirements for highschool graduation, neglecting the local Aboriginal languages completely.

Based on these facts, it would appear that Alberta's education is more progressive than Ontario's overall.

Any other interesting comparison's out there? I find this interesting because we normally thnk of Albrta as being the narrow-minded province while Ontario is supposed to be the more progessive one.
 
Ron in Regina
Free Thinker
#2
"We" who think that? Which "we" are the "we" in "we normally think
of Alberta as being the narrow-minded province while Ontario is
supposed to be the more progressive one." Just curious.... .
 
Liberalman
Free Thinker
#3
Ontario is better
French is Canada's official language
 
Cannuck
No Party Affiliation
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by Ron in Regina View Post

"We" who think that? Which "we" are the "we" in "we normally think
of Alberta as being the narrow-minded province while Ontario is
supposed to be the more progressive one." Just curious.... .

I know one thing for sure. We would never ban the Bare Naked Ladies because of their name. That's just a little too "progressive" for us.
 
Machjo
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by Ron in Regina View Post

"We" who think that? Which "we" are the "we" in "we normally think
of Alberta as being the narrow-minded province while Ontario is
supposed to be the more progressive one." Just curious.... .

Sorry, Ron. I meant the generic we, as in people generally, not necessarily including you or even me personally.
 
Machjo
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by Liberalman View Post

Ontario is better
French is Canada's official language

Before it was official, we could have consulted with the First Nations. instead, we chose not to consult with them, make it official, and then use that as a pretext to marginalize their languages and cultures. I've known of some First Nations who were not happy with the Official Languages Act.

Oh, how interesting. Ontario also uses the Constitution as a pretext for religious discrimination too.

So is that how it works? Make it official no matter how unjust it may be, and then just blindly parrot that we can't do anything aobut it because it's now official? Oh wow, that just floors me. So I suppose while Ontario buys into that argument, Alberta doesn't. So does that mean Ontarians are just sheep who will unquestioningly accept the law as right, whereas Albertans actually have heads on their shoulders and actually question the justice of the law itself?

Again, when we look at the details, it would appear that the Alberta Education system is indeed more progressive than the Ontario one, regardless of party brand names.
 
Machjo
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by Cannuck View Post

I know one thing for sure. We would never ban the Bare Naked Ladies because of their name. That's just a little too "progressive" for us.

 
Machjo
#8
By the way, Liberalman:

I remember having an exchange with you in French once, and your French totally fell apart. So does that make you less Canadian than me by your standards? What about the Cree or the Blackfoot who doesn't know French? Would that make him less North American?
 
Said1
Free Thinker
#9
I went to school in both provinces. When I lived in Alberta, I took french twice over a 7 year period. When we moved back to Ottawa, all of sudden it was 75 min a day, every day! WTF!! I thought that was outrageous and totally unfair.

But that was like 10 *caugh more like 20 caugh* years ago.
 
gerryh
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo View Post

Before it was official, we could have consulted with the First Nations. instead, we chose not to consult with them, make it official, and then use that as a pretext to marginalize their languages and cultures. I've known of some First Nations who were not happy with the Official Languages Act.

Oh, how interesting. Ontario also uses the Constitution as a pretext for religious discrimination too.

So is that how it works? Make it official no matter how unjust it may be, and then just blindly parrot that we can't do anything aobut it because it's now official? Oh wow, that just floors me. So I suppose while Ontario buys into that argument, Alberta doesn't. So does that mean Ontarians are just sheep who will unquestioningly accept the law as right, whereas Albertans actually have heads on their shoulders and actually question the justice of the law itself?

Again, when we look at the details, it would appear that the Alberta Education system is indeed more progressive than the Ontario one, regardless of party brand names.


You really like twisting things all around...don't you. In neither province does it state that the Province CAN'T fund private schools. That is the provinces decission. In both Provinces, one of the conditions of confederation was the formation of a seperate publically funded Catholic School system. So, how about putting the "blame" where it truely belongs. The electorate in Ontario has decided that it does NOT want to fund private schools. That was proven during the last election where the party that wanted to change the way things are done was defeated.
 
lone wolf
Free Thinker
#11
Big deal.... I learned French in high school. If I'd have gone to Paris, I may have been able to combine it with pantomime and get a cup of coffee....
 
Machjo
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

You really like twisting things all around...don't you. In neither province does it state that the Province CAN'T fund private schools. That is the provinces decission. In both Provinces, one of the conditions of confederation was the formation of a seperate publically funded Catholic School system. So, how about putting the "blame" where it truely belongs. The electorate in Ontario has decided that it does NOT want to fund private schools. That was proven during the last election where the party that wanted to change the way things are done was defeated.

Tht'exactly what I was saying.

As for the religion thing, the Constitution may require sepcial protection for Catholic schools, but nothing says it can't be extended to other religions too to make it equal. Alberta had the political will to make it fair and the imagination to figure out a way around the constitution; Ontario had neither, or at least not the will.

As for Official Bilingualism, that's a fedral law and so provincial governments are exempt. Alberta was smart enough to realise that as long as a few learn French, that's enough for its market. Ontario has gone overboard, sucking in the federal bilingualism thing like a religion.

That's exactly what I was suggesting, Gerry, that it's the Ontario electorate's fault in the end. I was just adding to that though that this also flies in the face of the stereotype that Ontario is so 'liberal' and all while Alberta is just slightly right of Attila the Hun.
 
Liberalman
Free Thinker
#13
The First Nations never decided join Canada they just kept thier treaty and those documents are honoured by Canada so when First Nations decide to join Canada and give up their land claims then their language will be recognised.

For now it is strictly English and French official languages.
 
gerryh
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by Liberalman View Post

The First Nations never decided join Canada they just kept thier treaty and those documents are honoured by Canada so when First Nations decide to join Canada and give up their land claims then their language will be recognised.

For now it is strictly English and French official languages.


Actually, Canada has NOT honoured the treatise, for the most part, but that is another thread and discussion. As far as the complaint about First Nations languages not being part of the curriculum in Ontario, I guess maybe the people of Ontario should do what the people of Alberta did and petition for those languages be added to the curiculum along with proof that there is enough demand for those languages to be taught.
 
Machjo
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by Liberalman View Post

The First Nations never decided join Canada they just kept thier treaty and those documents are honoured by Canada so when First Nations decide to join Canada and give up their land claims then their language will be recognised.

For now it is strictly English and French official languages.

You've got to be dreaming! I could never see the day, even if the Aboriginals gave up their land claims, when Canada would recognize their languages as equal with English and French, unless of course we were looking at treaties part 2, with the government promissing it but then not honouring that any more than it has honoured the other claims thus far. Why should the First Nations even trust us seeing how we've reneged on the first treaties?!

And we had the audacity to call them In Indian givers?
 
Machjo
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

Actually, Canada has NOT honoured the treatise, for the most part, but that is another thread and discussion. As far as the complaint about First Nations languages not being part of the curriculum in Ontario, I guess maybe the people of Ontario should do what the people of Alberta did and petition for those languages be added to the curiculum along with proof that there is enough demand for those languages to be taught.

Actually, if Ontario went for a school voucher system, it wouldn't even need proof. It would only need to ask the government to remove any legal obstacle to a school teaching those languages and no longer make French compulsory, then leaving it up to the market to decide.

But as for Ontarians petitioning the Ontario government, hmmm... We may say Albertans are a bunch of narrow-minded rednecks, but while Albertans woudl stand up for the rights of its indigenous minorities, I doubt many in Ontario would do the same. Judging from last election, the populace chose overwhelmingly to support continued religious discrimination in its school funding. And we believe that that crowd would support equal recognition for Aboriginal languages in its second-language education programmes?

My guess is that the Ontario Liberal party is more rednecked than Alberta's conservatives as far as cultural openness goes.
 
gerryh
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo View Post

Actually, if Ontario went for a school voucher system, it wouldn't even need proof. It would only need to ask the government to remove any legal obstacle to a school teaching those languages and no longer make French compulsory, then leaving it up to the market to decide.

But as for Ontarians petitioning the Ontario government, hmmm... We may say Albertans are a bunch of narrow-minded rednecks, but while Albertans woudl stand up for the rights of its indigenous minorities, I doubt many in Ontario would do the same. Judging from last election, the populace chose overwhelmingly to support continued religious discrimination in its school funding. And we believe that that crowd would support equal recognition for Aboriginal languages in its second-language education programmes?

My guess is that the Ontario Liberal party is more rednecked than Alberta's conservatives as far as cultural openness goes.


You really need to start researching your subjects. French is still a compulsary second language course from grade 4 up. Cree is available at 4 different Catholic Schools in Edmonton. At this point I haven't been able to find Aboriginal language studies in any other area aside from at the Unversity level. Cree can NOT be used as a substitute for French studies but instead is a language option. If you have differing information, please post it.
 
Machjo
#18
Alberta Education - Information for Parents

Alberta's Current Language Programs

In Alberta, there are a variety of provincial programs of study, as well as learning and teaching resources, for a number of languages:
  • French language programs , including: French as a second language courses, French immersion/alternative French programs, Francophone education
  • International language programs , including: Chinese , German , Italian, Japanese , Latin, Spanish and Ukrainian
  • Aboriginal language programs , including: Blackfoot and Cree .
School authorities determine which language programs to offer, based on their resources and community needs. They may:
  • choose from the variety of provincial programs and course series developed by Alberta Education, or
  • develop/acquire and authorize language programs that respond to the needs of their local community in keeping with process outlined in the Guide to Education.
You may contact your local school authority to find out the language programs that are currently available in your local school.
 
Machjo
#19
In the Ontario system, French is compulsory, full stop.
 
Machjo
#20
You'll notice that the Alberta Ministry of Education even allows schools to produce curricula for other languages if they wish. That's similar to the British and Hungarian systems. Some countries recognize even sign languages as being able to fulfil high school second-language requirements, and why not?

It would seem that the Alberta system is much more culturally open than the Ontario one, surprise surprise.
 
gerryh
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo View Post

You'll notice that the Alberta Ministry of Education even allows schools to produce curricula for other languages if they wish. That's similar to the British and Hungarian systems. Some countries recognize even sign languages as being able to fulfil high school second-language requirements, and why not?

It would seem that the Alberta system is much more culturally open than the Ontario one, surprise surprise.


There is no second language requirement in Alberta.
 
Machjo
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

There is no second language requirement in Alberta.

Now that's interesting. So that might explain the freedom schools are granted to teach a second language. Personally, I would lean in favour of a second-language being compulsory while granting schools the freedom to choose which second-language to teach from among the world's languages.

But if making a second-language compulsory means dictating which second-language to teach, as is the case in Ontario, then I'd go for the Alberta system any day. It makes it a much more open to the world's cultures than the Ontario system, not to mention local Aboriginal ones too.
 
gerryh
#23
as I said, I have found only 4 Catholic Schools in Edmonton that offer Cree, aside from them the only other Aboriginal language courses available are through university. You have made it sound like Cree and Blackfoot is available in a wide number of schools throughout the Province.
 
Machjo
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

as I said, I have found only 4 Catholic Schools in Edmonton that offer Cree, aside from them the only other Aboriginal language courses available are through university. You have made it sound like Cree and Blackfoot is available in a wide number of schools throughout the Province.

It wouldn't matter if not a single school were teaching it. The point is that the Alberta Government has officially granted each school the freedom to choose its second language of instruction for itself, unlike in Ontario where it is dictated from on high. At least in Alberta, the possibility is there without legal interruption, unlike in Ontario.

And before anyone makes reference to Reserves, that's an exception in Ontario, where they are allowed to teach them. But if we're going to go by their standards, in the provicne of Quebec, Cree-medium schools exist up to grade four already and are develiping further. In Ontario, to the best of my knowledge, it's only as a second-language, and that's on the reseves only. In Alberta, it applies province-wide, like I said, at least in principle even if few if any schools have chosen to exercise that freedom. I'm pointing out that in Ontario, the option itself doesn't exist.

Just another example of Ontario's comparatively conservative education policy, even by Alberta and, at least on reserves, Quebec standards.
 
gerryh
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo View Post

It wouldn't matter if not a single school were teaching it. The point is that the Alberta Government has officially granted each school the freedom to choose its second language of instruction for itself, unlike in Ontario where it is dictated from on high. At least in Alberta, the possibility is there without legal interruption, unlike in Ontario.

And before anyone makes reference to Reserves, that's an exception in Ontario, where they are allowed to teach them. But if we're going to go by their standards, in the provicne of Quebec, Cree-medium schools exist up to grade four already and are develiping further. In Ontario, to the best of my knowledge, it's only as a second-language, and that's on the reseves only. In Alberta, it applies province-wide, like I said, at least in principle even if few if any schools have chosen to exercise that freedom. I'm pointing out that in Ontario, the option itself doesn't exist.

Just another example of Ontario's comparatively conservative education policy, even by Alberta and, at least on reserves, Quebec standards.


well, I've been doing one hell of alot of surfing, and from what I can see, Alberta and Ontario handle aboriginal languages the same way. The Ontario Education Ministry offers the exact same thing as the Alberta Education and it looks like BC and Saskatchewan are the same. I have not checked out the other provinces or territory's. So, I say you are wrong, or at least misinformed. If you have links to refute what I have researched, please provide them.
 
Machjo
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

well, I've been doing one hell of alot of surfing, and from what I can see, Alberta and Ontario handle aboriginal languages the same way. The Ontario Education Ministry offers the exact same thing as the Alberta Education and it looks like BC and Saskatchewan are the same. I have not checked out the other provinces or territory's. So, I say you are wrong, or at least misinformed. If you have links to refute what I have researched, please provide them.

What do you mean exactly by they handle them in the same way? If we ignore on reserves, Alberta does not require French to be taught, and essentially any language can be taught as per the school's desire.

In Ontario, French is compulsory:

http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/curricu...fsl910curr.pdf

Essentially, the only choices the school has is in how intense the French course will be, core, extended, or immersion. Any more than that, and it's French-medium. But French is not an option in the Ontario system.
 
gerryh
#27
So.....you're saying that Ontario REQUIRES students to take French all the way through High school to graduate?
 
Machjo
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

So.....you're saying that Ontario REQUIRES students to take French all the way through High school to graduate?

Yes. If the school wants to teach another second language, that would have to be on top of French, not instead of French as is the case in Alberta. Owing to time and money constraints, that therefore places an unfair burden on schools in favour of French over sign languages, Aboriginal languages, or other international languages. That is not the case in Alberta.
 
Machjo
#29
Like I said, the Alberta system does appear more liberal than the Ontario one overall.
 
DurkaDurka
No Party Affiliation
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo View Post

That's exactly what I was suggesting, Gerry, that it's the Ontario electorate's fault in the end. I was just adding to that though that this also flies in the face of the stereotype that Ontario is so 'liberal' and all while Alberta is just slightly right of Attila the Hun.

What exactly are we at fault for?
 

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