Favourite public school system?


View Poll Results: Which of the school systems in the OP do you prefer in order of preference?
1,2, and 3. 0 0%
2, 1, and 3. 2 66.67%
2, 3, and 1. 0 0%
2, 1, and 3. 0 0%
1, 3, and 2. 0 0%
3, 1, and 2. 1 33.33%
1, 3, and 2 0 0%
Other. 0 0%
Voters: 3. You may not vote on this poll

Machjo
#1
What is your favourit public school system between:

1. Secular.
2. Separate (e.g. the Ontario system with separate religious schoo boards).
3. Voucher (give parents a voucher for each child and let them cash it in at the school of his choice).
 
Machjo
#2
Voted 3, 1, and 2, but could have voted 'other' too.
 
AnnaG
#3
2,1,3
 
gerryh
#4
2,1,3
 
Machjo
#5
Interesting. Why? What is the advantage of giving a particular religious community a distinct privilege that other religious communities aren't titled to. From the standpoint of justice, it would seem that either of the other two would be more fair. In the voucher system, no religious is given any preferential treatment, and in the secular system, there just isn't any public religious school.
 
gerryh
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo View Post

Interesting. Why? What is the advantage of giving a particular religious community a distinct privilege that other religious communities aren't titled to. From the standpoint of justice, it would seem that either of the other two would be more fair. In the voucher system, no religious is given any preferential treatment, and in the secular system, there just isn't any public religious school.


I have had experience in both he "public school system" and in the "seperate school system" with our 7 kids. We recieved the most support for "special needs" in the seperate school system (Catholic) than in the public school system. The level of education, we feel, is superior in the seperate school than in the public school..... and the thing with the seperate schools(Catholic) you don't have to be Catholic to attend the school.
 
Machjo
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

I have had experience in both he "public school system" and in the "seperate school system" with our 7 kids. We recieved the most support for "special needs" in the seperate school system (Catholic) than in the public school system. The level of education, we feel, is superior in the seperate school than in the public school..... and the thing with the seperate schools(Catholic) you don't have to be Catholic to attend the school.

So in that case, why not just provide more funding to the secular school system or, alternatively , raise the voucher value?

The problem I see with a separate system is that we must submit the children to a particular religious education to benefit from waht you mentioned above.
 
gerryh
#8
what makes you think that the make up of public/seperate school systems would be any different than they are now under a voucher system?
 
Machjo
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

what makes you think that the make up of public/seperate school systems would be any different than they are now under a voucher system?

It would be more just. We have private Jewish schools now, so some parents could use their vouchers there. Other parents who now can't afford private school might want to take advantage of this too. It would just be more just.
 
AnnaG
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo View Post

Interesting. Why? What is the advantage of giving a particular religious community a distinct privilege that other religious communities aren't titled to. From the standpoint of justice, it would seem that either of the other two would be more fair. In the voucher system, no religious is given any preferential treatment, and in the secular system, there just isn't any public religious school.

You didn't specify about religions, so I assumed that anyone could have a school of their chosen religion.
My problem with the voucher thing is parents would tell kids which school they'd want to go to anyway and there'd be thousands showing up at one school over there and the other school a few blocks away would have maybe 2 students showing up.
 
gerryh
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo View Post

It would be more just. We have private Jewish schools now, so some parents could use their vouchers there. Other parents who now can't afford private school might want to take advantage of this too. It would just be more just.


Why couldn't they take advantage of the jewish school right now?
 
Machjo
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by AnnaG View Post

You didn't specify about religions, so I assumed that anyone could have a school of their chosen religion.
My problem with the voucher thing is parents would tell kids which school they'd want to go to anyway and there'd be thousands showing up at one school over there and the other school a few blocks away would have maybe 2 students showing up.

But then the market would take care of that. The voucher would have a set monetary value. So if that happened, then the price at one school would rise and parents would have to pay the difference, whereas at the other school, prices would drop so that it could provide a better quality education at the same price. So then, parents would swing back to it. Here's how it works in Sweden:

School voucher - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Machjo
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

Why couldn't they take advantage of the jewish school right now?

They could, but it's a matter of principle, If you're a Catholic parent, your taxes could cover your child's Catholic education. But if you're a Jewish parent, you still have to pay taxes, but the government does not fund Jewish schools, so then you'd have to pay twice, once n taxes, and then again in private tuition.
 
gerryh
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo View Post

They could, but it's a matter of principle, If you're a Catholic parent, your taxes could cover your child's Catholic education. But if you're a Jewish parent, you still have to pay taxes, but the government does not fund Jewish schools, so then you'd have to pay twice, once n taxes, and then again in private tuition.

wrong..... as long as they teach the provincial curriculum, they get provincial funding.
 
AnnaG
#15
"But then the market would take care of that. The voucher would have a set monetary value. So if that happened, then the price at one school would rise and parents would have to pay the difference, whereas at the other school, prices would drop so that it could provide a better quality education at the same price. So then, parents would swing back to it."

In the meantime, kids would be swishing back and forth between schools till everything settled.
Personally I like private schools and home schooling. Kids learn better. P-schools in BC teach to the lowest common denominator, so the brighter kids are bored all the time. Our kids complained about that so we pulled them and taught them at home.
 
Machjo
#16
That's why I'd voted 3, 1, and 2. With a voucher system, parents are free to send their child to any school of their choice, public, private, secular, or religious, all on an equal footing. With a unified secular system, no religious school gets any public funding, and in the current system, if you're Catholic, you're in luck.
 
Machjo
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

wrong..... as long as they teach the provincial curriculum, they get provincial funding.

In Alberta, I don't know.

But in Ontario, if they do, it's not 100%. The parents do have to pay at least a portion... if they're not Catholic. If Catholic, it's 100% covered by taxes. It's a blatant double standard.
 
Machjo
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by AnnaG View Post

"But then the market would take care of that. The voucher would have a set monetary value. So if that happened, then the price at one school would rise and parents would have to pay the difference, whereas at the other school, prices would drop so that it could provide a better quality education at the same price. So then, parents would swing back to it."

In the meantime, kids would be swishing back and forth between schools till everything settled.
Personally I like private schools and home schooling. Kids learn better. P-schools in BC teach to the lowest common denominator, so the brighter kids are bored all the time. Our kids complained about that so we pulled them and taught them at home.

I doubt it would work out that way. Seems to have worked in Sweden just fine. Most will choose the geographically closest school as is the case now. Some catholic or secular aschools might switch to Jewish, or Protestant, etc. Most would likely remain secular. I can't see a radical shift overnight.
 
Machjo
#19
All we'd have to do is look at how Sweden went through the transition. So we have an advantage over Sweden in that we can learn from their mistakes in the process too.
 
AnnaG
#20
In Kloneville, we had a Catholic school on the next block over from us. Damn, those kids were well behaved, pleasant, friendly, and knew their stuff.
I have no idea if BC partially funds religious schools or what.
 
Machjo
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by AnnaG View Post


In the meantime, kids would be swishing back and forth between schools till everything settled.
Personally I like private schools and home schooling. Kids learn better. P-schools in BC teach to the lowest common denominator, so the brighter kids are bored all the time. Our kids complained about that so we pulled them and taught them at home.

This would be another advantage of a voucher system. If you home school, you could cash the voucher in yourself, and take it as your own teacher salary of sorts. You can't do that when the government just gives the money to the schools.
 
gerryh
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo View Post

In Alberta, I don't know.

But in Ontario, if they do, it's not 100%. The parents do have to pay at least a portion... if they're not Catholic. If Catholic, it's 100% covered by taxes. It's a blatant double standard.

It's the same in every province, and no, private schools do not get 100% funding, but then again, private schools can decide who they let in and who they don't. Public and the seperate Catholic Schools are not allowed to turn anyone away if there is room.

Do you think the private schools would be willing to give up that right? The right to refuse someone based on religious affiliation or IQ?
 
Machjo
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by AnnaG View Post

In Kloneville, we had a Catholic school on the next block over from us. Damn, those kids were well behaved, pleasant, friendly, and knew their stuff.
I have no idea if BC partially funds religious schools or what.

BC partially funds private schools (regardless of religious affiliation) based on what percentage of the pupils are BC residents. Again, a voucher system would automatically solve that problem too. international students would get no voucher to cash in, while the BC residents would.
 
gerryh
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by AnnaG View Post

In Kloneville, we had a Catholic school on the next block over from us. Damn, those kids were well behaved, pleasant, friendly, and knew their stuff.
I have no idea if BC partially funds religious schools or what.


Yes they do, and all Catholics have the option of puting their kids in a Catholic school regardless of ability to pay. The arch diocese and the local parish ensure that.
 
AnnaG
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo View Post

All we'd have to do is look at how Sweden went through the transition. So we have an advantage over Sweden in that we can learn from their mistakes in the process too.

That hasn't worked yet. Pols wander about the planet looking at various systems, come back and nothing changes. Campbull went to a few countries with really good healthcare systems, came back, ignored the systems he'd seen, and implemented BC's Health Authorities which was basically just adding another form of government. It stinks.
 
Machjo
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

It's the same in every province, and no, private schools do not get 100% funding, but then again, private schools can decide who they let in and who they don't. Public and the seperate Catholic Schools are not allowed to turn anyone away if there is room.

Do you think the private schools would be willing to give up that right? The right to refuse someone based on religious affiliation or IQ?

No, in Ontario, we have a PUBLIC Catholic school system, 100% funded by tax dollars, but no equivalent for other religions. For any other religion, you must go private. Catholics don't need to worrry about that because they have their own public Catholic school system that other religions are not entitled to.
 
Machjo
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

Yes they do, and all Catholics have the option of puting their kids in a Catholic school regardless of ability to pay. The arch diocese and the local parish ensure that.

When I'd moved to BC as an elementary school pulil, though nearly all in the school were Catholic (it was a French-medium school), the school had to be officially secular. At school, no religious instruction was allowed. Instead, I had to go to Catechism in the evenings outside of school because BC doesn't have a public Catholic school system, unlike Ontario. It's not a money thing, it's a legal thing. In Ontario, a public Catholic School board exists. In BC, all Catholic Schools are private.
 
gerryh
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo View Post

No, in Ontario, we have a PUBLIC Catholic school system, 100% funded by tax dollars, but no equivalent for other religions. For any other religion, you must go private. Catholics don't need to worrry about that because they have their own public Catholic school system that other religions are not entitled to.


The Catholic system is called a "seperate" school system, as opposed to the "public" schol system. Both Public and seperate Catholic systems are fully funded by the government and can not turn anyone away if they have room..... the "private" schools are partially funded by the government but have the ability to pick and choose who they let in. If they were to become fully government funded then would they be willing to give up that ability and allow anyone to enroll?
 
Machjo
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh View Post

The Catholic system is called a "seperate" school system, as opposed to the "public" schol system. Both Public and seperate Catholic systems are fully funded by the government and can not turn anyone away if they have room..... the "private" schools are partially funded by the government but have the ability to pick and choose who they let in. If they were to become fully government funded then would they be willing to give up that ability and allow anyone to enroll?

In a voucher system, the government gives no school any money directly. Instead, it gives parents vouchers to cash in at the school of their choice, or to use for home schooling. Now of course there could be different rules as to which schools qualify to accept the vouchers. For example the government could place all kinds of requirements for a school to meet before it be allowed to accept vouchers, and then it's up to the school to decide from there. But by definition, in a voucher system, the government does not give money to the schools diretly, thus putting them all on an equal footing.
 
gerryh
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo View Post

When I'd moved to BC as an elementary school pulil, though nearly all in the school were Catholic (it was a French-medium school), the school had to be officially secular. At school, no religious instruction was allowed. Instead, I had to go to Catechism in the evenings outside of school because BC doesn't have a public Catholic school system, unlike Ontario. It's not a money thing, it's a legal thing. In Ontario, a public Catholic School board exists. In BC, all Catholic Schools are private.


No...realy? I never said otherwise.... what I said was every Catholic Family has the option of putting their kids into a Catholic School....I put my second youngest into A Catholic Elementary school in Abbotsford when I found out that our Parish would help with the yearly tuition. That's what I meant by the arch diocese and the local Parishes help anyone that can't afford the cost.
 

Similar Threads

55
3
What school system for Ontario?
by Machjo | May 10th, 2010
0
Is our school system broken?
by scratch | Oct 11th, 2008