Circumcision death of 18 day old baby boy


karrie
#1
By: thinkSPAIN

The results of an autopsy performed on an 18 day old baby boy who died in suspicious circumstances in Tarragona last weekend, reveal that the baby died of massive blood loss following a botched circumcision thought to have been performed by the baby's mother, who has been questioned, but not arrested.
The incident occurred at around 9.30pm last Sunday evening at the home of the boy's parents, a Nigerian couple, who live in Tarragona's Pilar district.

Thursday, November 22, 2007
 
TobyTheCanadian
#2
wow thats tragic. poor little kid
 
Kreskin
#3
About a year ago I was involved in a forum discussion on the topic of circumcision. I couldn't believe how heated the debate got.

Yes, poor guy. Very sad.
 
karrie
#4
Genital mutilation of any sort is generally a hot topic. Especially when it's so gender biased.

If a little baby girl had bled to death from genital mutilation, it would have been front page news all across North America after hitting the web, regardless of what country it occurred in. As it was, a little boy dies from it, and the only reason I found this article was because I happened to pop into the intactivism website.

How's it feel to be second class citizens men? Personally, I'd be infuriated if I were you. Heck, as a wife and a mother I'm ticked at the hypocrisy of it.
 
Kreskin
#5
Ticked at the lack of coverage or circumcision, or both?
 
karrie
#6
I get why most circed men aren't angry about circumcision. When it's all you've known, you've grown up with it, bonded with it... well, most men I know who've been circed just don't see it as a big deal.

Ask uncirced men about it though, and you often get a VERY different view, since they've bonded with theirs as well

But yeah, I'd be ticked about the lack of media attention. Someone took a baby boy and sliced his genitals apart so badly that he bled to death. If that had been a girl, someone took her and sliced her genitals up, killing her, the instant that article hit the net, it would have spread like wild fire. There'd be slactivist petitions circulating, letter writing campaigns, to end the injustice of female genital mutilation. But it's a boy, and so it just doesn't spark the same fire in the media.
 
hermanntrude
#7
it pisses me off. I was part of that debate too, and yes it IS like we're second class citizens. feminism, while rightly setting out to right some wrongs, really didn't do a lot for men. Now women are protected by all sorts of rules, laws and general codes of behaviour while men can still be beaten by their wives, circumcised and generally mistreated with very little repercussions.

In this particular case what amazes me is that the mother must have sat down and thought to herself "i think i'll cut a peice of my baby boy off". My wife cried when our daughter got immunizations... how did this woman manage to slice off part of her son and not feel bad about it?
 
warrior_won
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by karrie View Post


Ask uncirced men about it though, and you often get a VERY different view, since they've bonded with theirs as well

I've certainly bonded with mine. Knew a guy too, who was pissed off that his parents put him under the axe.
 
Niflmir
#9
I too remember that thread. I also remember the hypocrisy coming up, something about the fact that male circumcisions being done in clinical environments being used to justify a distinguishment. How many boys are going to be circumcised at home in Africa now, when their parents can't afford clinical trials and think this bandage is the cure for an epidemic?
 
tracy
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by hermanntrude View Post

it pisses me off. I was part of that debate too, and yes it IS like we're second class citizens. feminism, while rightly setting out to right some wrongs, really didn't do a lot for men. Now women are protected by all sorts of rules, laws and general codes of behaviour while men can still be beaten by their wives, circumcised and generally mistreated with very little repercussions.

In this particular case what amazes me is that the mother must have sat down and thought to herself "i think i'll cut a peice of my baby boy off". My wife cried when our daughter got immunizations... how did this woman manage to slice off part of her son and not feel bad about it?

I have to take exception to this. I work with newborns and it is ALWAYS the father that pushes circumcision. Not once in the last 7 years of working with them have I seen a single mother argue for it if the dad doesn't want it done. It's unrealistic to expect women to change this. It's got to be the men.
 
hermanntrude
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by tracy View Post

I have to take exception to this. I work with newborns and it is ALWAYS the father that pushes circumcision. Not once in the last 7 years of working with them have I seen a single mother argue for it if the dad doesn't want it done. It's unrealistic to expect women to change this. It's got to be the men.

i'm not trying to suggest that it's women who suggest the circumcision. What i'm saying is that the cultural way of looking at male circumcision seems to be founded in feminism. It's not OK to hurt a girl, but it IS OK to hurt a boy, since a) he's a boy and should be tougher and b) it's kind-of like revenge anyway, eh? settles the score.

ripping bits off of boys is EXACTLY as bad as ripping bits off of girls. In another thread, I read that Sudan is barbaric because it practices female circumcision. I say male circumcision is ALSO barbaric, and should be stopped.
 
tracy
#12
I disagree. Feminism is intricately linked with children's rights (you don't see nearly as many men involved in that area). I can't imagine too many feminists thinking it's great fun to get revenge on a little baby boy for the injustices of our patriarchal society by cutting off a piece of his skin.

I get the impression you think they are in favor of male circ because they acknowledge the differences between male circumcision and female circumcision. I don't have a problem with this because there are a lot of differences between the two. Sure, you can take the view that genital modification of any kind is wrong (I do), but that doesn't mean you have to think that the procedures are all the same. They aren't. Infibulation is very different from the removal of the foreskin for instance.
 
karrie
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by tracy View Post

I have to take exception to this. I work with newborns and it is ALWAYS the father that pushes circumcision. Not once in the last 7 years of working with them have I seen a single mother argue for it if the dad doesn't want it done. It's unrealistic to expect women to change this. It's got to be the men.

You're right from what I've seen tracy. Circed dads tend to push for circumcisions, while it's moms right now here who are dragging their feet and slowing down the trend. My husband STILL finds it odd that my son isn't circed.

But in this particular case, the act was physically carried out by the mom, so I can see why Hermann was bringing her into it.
 
tracy
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by karrie View Post

You're right from what I've seen tracy. Circed dads tend to push for circumcisions, while it's moms right now here who are dragging their feet and slowing down the trend. My husband STILL finds it odd that my son isn't circed.

But in this particular case, the act was physically carried out by the mom, so I can see why Hermann was bringing her into it.

I can certainly see blaming that particular woman. I just don't agree that it's feminists in general who are allowing this practice to continue. Circumcision has been practiced in Canada and the US for non-religious reasons for over a century, long before feminism existed. It's been fairly recently that the decline in circumcision started.

I really think each gender has to take responsibility for their own sexual and reproductive health. People just don't take your opinions as seriously if you don't own the bits you're talking about. I went through this with my ex-boyfriend because I said I wouldn't circumcise a son if we had one. He was convinced I just didn't understand cause I was a woman and it needed to be done.
 
amagqira
#15
Circumcision, like several other religious injunctions, it seems to have had its origin in rudimentary public health promotion rather than in religion, although it has been cloaked in religion.

There seems to be good evidence that circumcised men are less susceptible to certain infectious diseases.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...ubmed_RVDocSum

Maybe it has more to do with the reason for the circumcision, than the circumcision itself.
 
senorita
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by karrie View Post

Genital mutilation of any sort is generally a hot topic. Especially when it's so gender biased.

Circumcision does not equate genital mutilation....

but this is indeed very sad. Too bad most people dont think before they make stupid choices....
 
Said1
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by Kreskin View Post

About a year ago I was involved in a forum discussion on the topic of circumcision. I couldn't believe how heated the debate got.

Yes, poor guy. Very sad.


Yes. Poor guy. I remember that thread.
 
Vereya
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by hermanntrude View Post

feminism, while rightly setting out to right some wrongs, really didn't do a lot for men.

It wasn't supposed to, you know. That's why it is called feminism.
 
Nuggler
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by Vereya View Post

It wasn't supposed to, you know. That's why it is called feminism.

Touche. Good one. Geez Hermann, don't go there............ROFLMAO

Usually, when we're referring to female circ., it's genital mutilation done somewhere in the bush, with some broken glass or somesuch, to prop up some belief (usually religious). Horrible stuff IMHO, but, whadyagonnado? Won't be stopped for a long time. Neither will lashing/killing female rape victims in some societies, nor stoning ladies who "fool around", even if it's with their own cousins..................Different strokes

A guy once told me they took the best part of me and threw it away when I was but an infant. There may be some merit to that.

 
EagleSmack
#20
I remember that old thread. That was a pretty good thread although I do not think it was heated. What I do remember is the ones that WEREN"T circed being heated about folks who did have their kids circed. I think it is a cosmetic thing for guys. I believe in the US it is a lot more common although I cannot speak for Canada.

Now female circumsision is a complete attack on female sexuality and females. That is why that is done. Men in those countries that do that KNOW they are taking something away that will someday cause pleasure in the female. What they are removing is the only organ that is built for pleasure during sex.

As far as men who are circed...it is really no big deal. Yes I know that some people freak out about it but we don't. It would be neat to know what it would feel like but believe me...it still feels good!
 
warrior_won
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by Nuggler View Post

Usually, when we're referring to female circ., it's genital mutilation done somewhere in the bush...

Somewhere in the bush? Yep, that's where it would be done. You know, unless she shaves.

Memories of the original Revenge of the Nerds flash before my eyes... "We've got bush..." lol

Quote:

A guy once told me they took the best part of me and threw it away when I was but an infant. There may be some merit to that.

Some merit? I still have the "best part" of me. Consequently, I need no woman to make me feel whole.
 
EagleSmack
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by warrior_won View Post



Some merit? I still have the "best part" of me. Consequently, I need no woman to make me feel whole.

LMAO!
In a jam...the male species never did!
 
karrie
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by EagleSmack View Post

I remember that old thread. That was a pretty good thread although I do not think it was heated. What I do remember is the ones that WEREN"T circed being heated about folks who did have their kids circed. I think it is a cosmetic thing for guys. I believe in the US it is a lot more common although I cannot speak for Canada.

Now female circumsision is a complete attack on female sexuality and females. That is why that is done. Men in those countries that do that KNOW they are taking something away that will someday cause pleasure in the female. What they are removing is the only organ that is built for pleasure during sex.

As far as men who are circed...it is really no big deal. Yes I know that some people freak out about it but we don't. It would be neat to know what it would feel like but believe me...it still feels good!

Male circumcisions started mainly to attempt to curb masturbation by deadening the sensation. It was later justified through medical means, but even the medical community no longer backs up that claim for routine circumcision Eagle. It was a complete attack on male sexuality. That is why it was done.

Like you say, most men who are intact speak VERY loudly against it, while many who aren't, never knew the pleasure and didn't get attached to it, so they don't really care. Female circumcisions are much the same. I was allowed to grow up with a clitoris (the foreskin is much the same in nerve quality BTW), and as such, I'm not going to let someone take it without a fight. Girls who live in cultures where female circumcisions are routine however, often don't see the big deal, and perpetuate the cycle. They don't want to look 'odd' in their society, have extra dangly bits that the other women don't have, turn off potential mates.

The issue of female cosmetic circumcision and male cosmetic circumcision is a lot more similar than most men in our society want to admit.
 
EagleSmack
#24
Well... (Gosh are we going to get in trouble for this talk?) the male can still climax with or w/o the extra skin. There is nothing cosmetic about female circumcision. I think it is an attack on female sexuality and that men in that culture KNOW that it provides them pleasure. I had a buddy when i was in the service get a circumcision. He thought women liked that better. Maybe then (1980s) they did but more and more parents are opting out.

Edit: And I don't think circumcision ever stopped guys from beating the bishop. Ever.
 
karrie
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by EagleSmack View Post

Well... (Gosh are we going to get in trouble for this talk?) the male can still climax with or w/o the extra skin. There is nothing cosmetic about female circumcision. I think it is an attack on female sexuality and that men in that culture KNOW that it provides them pleasure. I had a buddy when i was in the service get a circumcision. He thought women liked that better. Maybe then (1980s) they did but more and more parents are opting out.

Not all female circumcisions completely remove sensation either. Not to mention that some women have very sensitive internal parts which still enable orgasm, and some men have very insensitive penises which make orgasm extremely difficult.

I see nothing wrong with people having control over their own genital appearance. A grown man getting a circumcision because he likes the way it looks... that's totally fine. A woman of adult age deciding to get a female circumcision because it's what her culture likes, fine.

But routinely cosmetically modifying our children for any number of flawed reasons.... Grrrrrr.
 
warrior_won
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by karrie View Post

Male circumcisions started mainly to attempt to curb masturbation by deadening the sensation. It was later justified through medical means, but even the medical community no longer backs up that claim for routine circumcision Eagle. It was a complete attack on male sexuality. That is why it was done.

Wired magazine did a nice article on male circumcision several years ago. You might check to see if you can dig up that article online.

Quote:

Like you say, most men who are intact speak VERY loudly against it, while many who aren't, never knew the pleasure and didn't get attached to it, so they don't really care.

I am a male adult who is uncurcumcised. I have had sexual intercourse with a female, and I have and do masturbate. I far prefer masturbation to intercourse. This is probably in large part due to the fact that my foreskin remains intact.

I do not know what it is like to be a circumcised male, and I can't say that I have any interest in finding out. It will be a cold day in hell before I ever allow the blade to come anywhere near my penis.


As for whether parents circumcise their infant sons, I really could not care less. I am neither an advocate nor opponent of circumcision. I care only for my personal piece.
 
Nuggler
#27
[quote=warrior_won;910126]Somewhere in the bush? Yep, that's where it would be done. You know, unless she shaves. "

I'm pretty sure that's not what I meant.
 
warrior_won
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by Nuggler View Post

Quote: Originally Posted by warrior_won View Post

Somewhere in the bush? Yep, that's where it would be done. You know, unless she shaves.

I'm pretty sure that's not what I meant.

Are you absolutely positive? Make sure!
 
EagleSmack
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by warrior_won View Post

Wired magazine did a nice article on male circumcision several years ago. You might check to see if you can dig up that article online.



I am a male adult who is uncurcumcised. I have had sexual intercourse with a female, and I have and do masturbate. I far prefer masturbation to intercourse. This is probably in large part due to the fact that my foreskin remains intact.

I do not know what it is like to be a circumcised male, and I can't say that I have any interest in finding out. It will be a cold day in hell before I ever allow the blade to come anywhere near my penis.


As for whether parents circumcise their infant sons, I really could not care less. I am neither an advocate nor opponent of circumcision. I care only for my personal piece.

This is where you can steal a quote from gun advocates.

"They can have my foreskin when they pry it from my cold dead fingers."
 
EagleSmack
#30
It would be interesting to know if there was an adult male that had it done later in life if there is a big difference.
 

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