Nurses report being exhausted


JLM
-1
#1
Just listening to a discussion on C.B.C. radio about nurses in Nova Scotia being exhausted after working a 12 hour shift. Would working 8 hour shifts improve the situation?
 
Serryah
+2
#2
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

Just listening to a discussion on C.B.C. radio about nurses in Nova Scotia being exhausted after working a 12 hour shift. Would working 8 hour shifts improve the situation?


No. 8 hour shifts would require more days to make the full time hours and likely there'd still have to be a large chunk of OT needed to work.

It's not just the 12 hours doing it - it's overtime, it's workload, it's the BS that comes with working short staffed. 12 hours for a 'regular, normal' shift isn't that bad. Depending on the rotation, you normally have four or five days to recover after working your required 12 hour shifts. That's not happening anymore. Throw in any of that other stuff though and you quickly reach burnout that your days off just don't help you recover from, IF you get the full days off.
 
JLM
-1
#3
Quote: Originally Posted by Serryah View Post

No. 8 hour shifts would require more days to make the full time hours and likely there'd still have to be a large chunk of OT needed to work.

It's not just the 12 hours doing it - it's overtime, it's workload, it's the BS that comes with working short staffed. 12 hours for a 'regular, normal' shift isn't that bad. Depending on the rotation, you normally have four or five days to recover after working your required 12 hour shifts. That's not happening anymore. Throw in any of that other stuff though and you quickly reach burnout that your days off just don't help you recover from, IF you get the full days off.


OK, I hear you. I think there's a satisfactory solution. Set a limit on number of hours worked in a week (40) (45) (50) whatever works. Hire more nurses to cover the short fall. That would save the employer money in that what were previously O.T. hours would now be getting paid at straight time and putting MORE people to work. How does that sound to you?
 
Ron in Regina
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

OK, I hear you. I think there's a satisfactory solution. Set a limit on number of hours worked in a week (40) (45) (50) whatever works. Hire more nurses to cover the short fall. That would save the employer money in that what were previously O.T. hours would now be getting paid at straight time and putting MORE people to work. How does that sound to you?

I hear what you're saying but here's the bigger question. Why hasn't this already been done in the last couple of decades? If it was that easy, why isn't it already in place? Why are retired nurses in their late sixties and into their seventies being called daily and guilted into coming in to cover shifts due to a lack of nurses? What's the backstory?
 
DaSleeper
+1
#5
Maybe it's cheaper for an employer to pay overtime than the complete package for a new employee
 
Ron in Regina
+3
#6  Top Rated Post
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

Just listening to a discussion on C.B.C. radio about nurses in Nova Scotia being exhausted after working a 12 hour shift. Would working 8 hour shifts improve the situation?

  1. Even if a Nurse is "Just" working an 8hr shift, are they really just working an 8hr shift? It's not like a production line where one dude puts down a tool and the next guy for the next shift picks it up.This is a different animal all together where in order to start a shift, a nurse needs to know what has happened in the last eight hours as a minimum on their floor or section or ward or whatever, as a minimum.
  2. If they work "Just" an 8hr shift, & their replacement doesn't arrive (injury on a previous shift, scheduling error by administration, etc...), can the Nurse just leave and go home? Who's job is it to find a replacement-replacement so they can leave? The irony begins....
  3. Why aren't there enough Nurses for a profession that pays fairly well? What's the punchline here?
  4. How many years of study does it take to become a Nurse in Canada now? How many did it take 30yrs ago? At what cost in Student Loans does a Nurse begin their career with and how many years does it take to work off that student debt?
  5. What is the injury rate in Nursing, be it from overwork due to short staffing, or assaults from their patients (whom they can't charge or sue, etc...)?
 
JLM
-1
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by Ron in Regina View Post

I hear what you're saying but here's the bigger question. Why hasn't this already been done in the last couple of decades? If it was that easy, why isn't it already in place? Why are retired nurses in their late sixties and into their seventies being called daily and guilted into coming in to cover shifts due to a lack of nurses? What's the backstory?


Perhaps a mix of feelings on the issue. We all know people who are quite happy working until the day they drop. In fact it's probably what keeps some of them alive. We also know people who are happy to work ALL the O.T. they can get. I guess to keep everyone happy a workable dual system would have to be found. While it might work with large work groups but where you have a situation with only a handful of employees, someone is bound to be unhappy. I was through it with the 4 day work week 10 hours a day, most of us liked it but there was always someone who whined and complained.
 
JLM
-1
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by DaSleeper View Post

Maybe it's cheaper for an employer to pay overtime than the complete package for a new employee


You raise a good point there. The cost of an employee is approx. 21/2 times his wages...…………..approximately.
 
Cannuck
#9
2 1/2 times.....hehehehehehe
 
taxslave
+1
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

You raise a good point there. The cost of an employee is approx. 21/2 times his wages...…………..approximately.

The rule of thumb is 1.5 times wage. That includes WCB. Could be more for government since they thrive on inefficency.
One major hurdle is finding enough new employees that want to dedicate themselves to a life of shift work. So no matter what governments tell the votersabout increasing the number of nurses they can't force anyone to go to school.
Then there are union turf wars over who can do what in the hospital. Nurses are required to do an incredible amount of paperwork instead of dealing directly with patients.
 
JLM
+2 / -1
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslave View Post

The rule of thumb is 1.5 times wage. That includes WCB. Could be more for government since they thrive on inefficency.
One major hurdle is finding enough new employees that want to dedicate themselves to a life of shift work. So no matter what governments tell the votersabout increasing the number of nurses they can't force anyone to go to school.
Then there are union turf wars over who can do what in the hospital. Nurses are required to do an incredible amount of paperwork instead of dealing directly with patients.


You're probably right, in the 21/2 times I was including everything like sick leave, vacation replacements, training, and then there's the cost of the support workers required like human resources, payroll, bereavement leave, pension etc. etc. Getting back to nurses there's two or more main levels, R.N.s and Practical nurses and or nurse's aides. I don't think you can get away from the paper work - doctors do it too. I know from several stays in hospital, every move by a nurse has to be recorded and I doubt if the average R.N. would want someone else doing their recording. Every pill taken out of the pill dispensary has to be recorded and accounted for.
 
Twin_Moose
+1
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by Serryah View Post

No. 8 hour shifts would require more days to make the full time hours and likely there'd still have to be a large chunk of OT needed to work.
It's not just the 12 hours doing it - it's overtime, it's workload, it's the BS that comes with working short staffed. 12 hours for a 'regular, normal' shift isn't that bad. Depending on the rotation, you normally have four or five days to recover after working your required 12 hour shifts. That's not happening anymore. Throw in any of that other stuff though and you quickly reach burnout that your days off just don't help you recover from, IF you get the full days off.

Would you give up your overtime to allow a third staff be hired to make an 8 hour shift work?
 
White_Unifier
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

OK, I hear you. I think there's a satisfactory solution. Set a limit on number of hours worked in a week (40) (45) (50) whatever works. Hire more nurses to cover the short fall. That would save the employer money in that what were previously O.T. hours would now be getting paid at straight time and putting MORE people to work. How does that sound to you?

They need to find the qualified staff. Do we provide extra funding for training? Do we fast-track immigrants with nursing qualifications? Other solution?
 
Serryah
+1
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

OK, I hear you. I think there's a satisfactory solution. Set a limit on number of hours worked in a week (40) (45) (50) whatever works. Hire more nurses to cover the short fall. That would save the employer money in that what were previously O.T. hours would now be getting paid at straight time and putting MORE people to work. How does that sound to you?


There already is a set hours per week, usually via Union/Government contracts. The problem is there are no nurses to hire to cover the shortfall. Even PCW's aren't enough anymore and they can't do all the work that a nurse can do.


Quote:

I hear what you're saying but here's the bigger question. Why hasn't this already been done in the last couple of decades? If it was that easy, why isn't it already in place? Why are retired nurses in their late sixties and into their seventies being called daily and guilted into coming in to cover shifts due to a lack of nurses? What's the backstory?


I know that my mom continued on working casual after retiring because she liked her job and the extra money was okay. Mostly I think because she liked working as a nurse. But even just as casual, she was called an awful lot to come in to cover shifts.


See, here in NB, training for nurses goes like this: Then there's a 4 year RN course where you get your BSc which means you do more management. LPN's also have a 2 year course where you pretty much do what the old 2 year RN course taught. PCW's (patient care workers) are like attendants and ward aids; I don't know for sure if they have a certification or not.


It's not enough. There aren't enough people learning, there aren't enough seats available and a lot of our situation is nurses are leaving the province once trained for various reasons (language I think is one).


Quote:

  1. Even if a Nurse is "Just" working an 8hr shift, are they really just working an 8hr shift? It's not like a production line where one dude puts down a tool and the next guy for the next shift picks it up.This is a different animal all together where in order to start a shift, a nurse needs to know what has happened in the last eight hours as a minimum on their floor or section or ward or whatever, as a minimum.
  2. If they work "Just" an 8hr shift, & their replacement doesn't arrive (injury on a previous shift, scheduling error by administration, etc...), can the Nurse just leave and go home? Who's job is it to find a replacement-replacement so they can leave? The irony begins....
  3. Why aren't there enough Nurses for a profession that pays fairly well? What's the punchline here?
  4. How many years of study does it take to become a Nurse in Canada now? How many did it take 30yrs ago? At what cost in Student Loans does a Nurse begin their career with and how many years does it take to work off that student debt?
  5. What is the injury rate in Nursing, be it from overwork due to short staffing, or assaults from their patients (whom they can't charge or sue, etc...)?


No nurse works "just" an 8 hour shift. Even now in our hospital, a nurse is assigned rooms and the people in those rooms are theirs to care for. If the work isn't done in that 8 (or 12) hour shift, too bad.


No one in health care that is deemed essential can leave their workplace without a replacement. If they do, it's instant termination. That goes for nurses, front line clerks (me) and other staff. During the day it's up to the schedular/manager to find the replacements. On nights, weekends and before regular hours, it's up to staff working. If you don't find a replacement, you stay.


Answered 3 and 4 above but also: there used to be a 2 year RN course; that was removed totally to push RN's into the 4 year. LPN's used to have a one year course. The scope of practice now for LPN's covers the old RN scope though which is why their education has increased. Not sure about student loans or anything though.

Injury depends on the workload - aka the patients. You have overweight patients, patients who can't move or are mobility challenged that you need special equipment to move them, you have violent patients, you have violent *families*... really the crap nurses put up with is unreal and it's not all from patients.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-b...ital-1.5055961

This popped up in the news and is seriously highlighting nursing abuse, or it was.


Quote:

Getting back to nurses there's two or more main levels, R.N.s and Practical nurses and or nurse's aides. I don't think you can get away from the paper work - doctors do it too. I know from several stays in hospital, every move by a nurse has to be recorded and I doubt if the average R.N. would want someone else doing their recording. Every pill taken out of the pill dispensary has to be recorded and accounted for.

Paperwork is part of the job and everything a nurse does with a patient is supposed to be charted, yes, right down to the BM's. I believe in most places in Canada now both RN's and LPN's can dispense meds. The LPN scope of practice has shifted, as has the RN's.


Quote:

Would you give up your overtime to allow a third staff be hired to make an 8 hour shift work?

Considering I'm coming off a work six - off one - work four and a half rotation, yes! Our staff situation, like elsewhere, is SHORT.


We have three full time 8 hour positions; currently 2 are filled and we're waiting on results for the evening shift.


But we have the added issue that if you cannot speak a level 2 French, you can't be hired.


Needless to say, there aren't many level 2 speakers in my area that are acceptable to work. We're HOPING someone can fill the full time at least (I applied for it but as I don't have the French... I don't know; I'm grandfathered into my current position but that might not count to switch from nights to evenings) but getting casuals has been impossible for *years*.


Other provinces have other issues but NB has the stupid addition of language to make it worse.
 
JLM
+1 / -1
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by White_Unifier View Post

They need to find the qualified staff. Do we provide extra funding for training? Do we fast-track immigrants with nursing qualifications? Other solution?


Escalate the training program for sure. Limit immigration to those with skills in jobs where there is a shortage. Don't let anyone into the country whose skills are not what we need.
 
White_Unifier
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

Escalate the training program for sure. Limit immigration to those with skills in jobs where there is a shortage. Don't let anyone into the country whose skills are not what we need.

And cheap beer at every shop probably doesn't help matters either.
 
JLM
+1 / -1
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by White_Unifier View Post

And cheap beer at every shop probably doesn't help matters either.


Translated...…………………..Don't do shit to your body that will eventually lead to hospital care.
 
White_Unifier
+1
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

Translated...…………………..Don't do shit to your body that will eventually lead to hospital care.

Accidents happen, people have bad genes, people get old... but we don't need to aggravate these though willful negligence.
 
JLM
-1
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by White_Unifier View Post

Accidents happen, people have bad genes, people get old... but we don't need to aggravate these though willful negligence.


Yep, I thought I was a fairly healthy specimen who didn't subject my body to too much abuse and then bang, a month before my 70th birthday, I'm suddenly an Atrial Fib. patient. Thanks to excellent medical care and a defibrillator I've enjoyed another 6 years of health and good mobility. There's a price, I have to keep moving every day.
 
Hoid
#20
Your fingers on a keyboard?

Don't worry - we also have "farmers" who spend their entire day on here.

Which is normal for farmers. There is very little to do in that profession.
 
JLM
-1
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by Hoid View Post

Your fingers on a keyboard?


Not much time for a lot of that- I generally spend at least an hour walking every day and now the work in the garden is starting and then there's bowling and the casino and then there's puzzles to keep the brain functional.
 
Ron in Regina
+3
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by Hoid View Post

Your fingers on a keyboard?

Don't worry - we also have "farmers" who spend their entire day on here.

Which is normal for farmers. There is very little to do in that profession.

Have you ever spent any time on a farm? Have family members that farm? Wow....
 
Hoid
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by Ron in Regina View Post

Have you ever spent any time on a farm? Have family members that farm? Wow....

I actually have which is why I find the idea of farmers spending their every waking hour on here so hilarious.
 
Ron in Regina
+2
#24
A farmer needs to throw down and dig in crazy hours when the time comes, being it seeding or harvest or as their own mechanic or hydraulics specialist and so on and so forth. Most folks I know that farm do mixed farming/ranching so it's time consuming.
 
JLM
+1 / -1
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by Hoid View Post

Your fingers on a keyboard?

Don't worry - we also have "farmers" who spend their entire day on here.

Which is normal for farmers. There is very little to do in that profession.


You obviously have a lot to learn about farming. It starts about 4 A.M. seven days a week and ends after dark. There's no such thing as a day off unless you have a lot of money to pay someone. You better just stick to "city slickin'".
 
Hoid
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

You obviously have a lot to learn about farming. It starts about 4 A.M. seven days a week and ends after dark. There's no such thing as a day off unless you have a lot of money to pay someone. You better just stick to "city slickin'".

I know Twin Moose spent the whole day explaining that he couldn't find a farm tractor that ran on anything but petroleum that would run for 14 hours a day.
 
Cannuck
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

It starts about 4 A.M. seven days a week and ends after dark...

No it doesn’t
 
Danbones
+2
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by Hoid View Post

I know Twin Moose spent the whole day explaining that he couldn't find a farm tractor that ran on anything but petroleum that would run for 14 hours a day.

Ummm...your electric scooter will never make it as a tractor doood.

Not unless you get an extension cord that is longer than the distance from the park where you live to the beer store.
 
taxslave
+1
#29
But we have the added issue that if you cannot speak a level 2 French, you can't be hired.


There is one of the many government rules that make things difficult for no reason except being PC.
Then there is the problem of not recognizing credentials from other countries. Most trades have this problem as well.
 
taxslave
+2
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by Hoid View Post

Your fingers on a keyboard?
Don't worry - we also have "farmers" who spend their entire day on here.
Which is normal for farmers. There is very little to do in that profession.

How about since you never have anything intelligent to say you just not be here?