800 years of democracy is unravelling before our very eyes


Blackleaf
+1
#1
Don't be deceived by the lack of violence or the comparative good manners of those now seizing control. This is a coup, and what is at stake is the nature and legitimacy of Parliament itself.

Ruled by comfortable, smug elites, Parliament is choosing to ignore the ordinary British people as they attempt to hold power to account.

It is no exaggeration to say that British democracy, which stands in direct line with Magna Carta, is now unravelling before us.

800 years of democracy is unravelling before our very eyes: Distinguished historian DAVID STARKEY on how our self-satisfied politicians have launched a coup over Brexit




By historian David Starkey
17 March 2019
The Mail on Sunday

Historians should avoid colourful predictions, however tempting they might seem.

At the moment I’m touring the country with a lecture called Henry VIII And The First Brexit, which compares the king’s eventual clean and triumphant break with the Roman Church with our own messy and humiliating attempts to extricate ourselves from the European Union.

But audiences really want me to talk about the present.


The Blairites were contemptuous of the people they supposedly represented and, in particular, of their party membership, who were ritually humiliated by the abolition of Clause Four of the Labour Party’s constitution

‘What do you think is going to happen?’, they ask. I shrug my shoulders and explain that, since history only works by looking backwards, those historians who pose as prophets are charlatans.

My audiences think I’m copping out, of course – and they are right.

I haven’t always been such a purist. Three years ago, I published a book on Magna Carta to mark the founding document of our Parliamentary constitution, that had been sealed 800 years earlier in 1215.

In holding a medieval king accountable to his subjects – or some of them, at least – Magna Carta was a revolutionary step and is rightly celebrated.


Where Blair led, David Cameron and his government were eager followers and disciples. Supposedly Conservatives, they hailed Blair as ‘The Master’ and gobbled up his memoirs as a model of how their own government should run

But I ended on a note of caution. All is not well with Britain or our politics, I said. ‘Is it silly to think there is a touch of 1215 – a whiff of revolution – in the air?

And it came true in June 2016, with the decisive referendum vote to reshape our politics once again and leave the European Union.

The referendum was a very British revolution. And it’s been followed by a very British counter-revolution, which shows every sign of succeeding.

Don't be deceived by the lack of violence or the comparative good manners of those now seizing control. This is a coup, and what is at stake is the nature and legitimacy of Parliament itself.

Ruled by comfortable, smug elites, Parliament is choosing to ignore the ordinary British people as they attempt to hold power to account.

It is no exaggeration to say that British democracy, which stands in direct line with Magna Carta, is now unravelling before us.

If today’s self-satisfied MPs and Ministers – I have already described them as a Parliament of Pygmies – have no time for the voters, they have little time for history, either.


Ruled by comfortable, smug elites, Parliament is choosing to ignore the ordinary British people as they attempt to hold power to account. It is no exaggeration to say that British democracy, which stands in direct line with Magna Carta, is now unravelling before us

They seem to have forgotten that the original power of our Parliament lay in its claim to represent everybody and not just a few privileged groups, as in continental Europe. (Take for example the Estates General in France or the Cortes Generales in Spain, two early parliaments which promptly died out in the 17th Century.)

They should remember, too, that our Parliament owed its survival to its willingness, with more or less of a struggle, to adapt and remain representative. As time went by, Parliament broadened out to include newly powerful social groups as they appeared.

First came the Reform Act of 1832 which gave the vote to the newly prosperous middle class. This ushered in several decades of dominance by the Liberal Party, which was only broken by the genius of Benjamin Disraeli.

Disraeli, who is the founder of the modern Conservative Party, recognised Conservatism’s natural affinity with ‘the radical masses’.

Disraeli’s intuition was vindicated with the second Reform Act in 1867, the next major parliamentary change, which enfranchised the skilled working man and began the process that turned the Tories into the natural party of government.


Before the fall of the Berlin Wall, Communist states were ruled by similarly pampered, out-of-touch and privileged elites who, against all the evidence, claimed to represent the People. The People, shame on them, were ungrateful and in the habit of rebelling [File photo]


Then came the Labour Party, a grand coalition between trade-unionised workers and the middle-class intelligentsia.

And it was the tit-for-tat of Conservative and Labour – two national parties, which between them represented more or less every shade of opinion in the country – that guaranteed the stability of British politics through all the convulsions of the 20th Century.

They kept us free from revolution and prevented the rise of extremist parties, whether of the Left or Right. Until now.

The new Industrial Revolution –the global movement of capital and the rise of technology – is partly to blame. It has cut away at the base of both main political parties.

First to fall was Labour, as the death of mass-production industry and a mass trade union movement left it a hollowed-out shell. As such, it was ripe for the Blairite coup as a tiny, unrepresentative faction took over a once-mighty movement.

The Blairites were contemptuous of the people they supposedly represented and, in particular, of their party membership, who were ritually humiliated by the abolition of Clause Four of the Labour Party’s constitution.

The Blairites were equally disparaging of history, traditional institutions and the nation itself. They believed in free markets, free love and unlimited immigration and they exhibited an ugly combination of self-righteousness and intolerance.

They were, pretty much to a man and a woman, on the make. And they loved, loved the EU. Finally they tried, and with a large measure of success, to forge a new governing class in their own image.

Where Blair led, David Cameron and his government were eager followers and disciples. Supposedly Conservatives, they hailed Blair as ‘The Master’ and gobbled up his memoirs as a model of how their own government should run.

They inflicted a Clause Four moment on their own Party membership by gratuitously imposing gay marriage.

Above all, Tory modernisation– which can be summarised most neatly as an attempt to make the Tories the party of choice for readers of The Guardian – turned the Conservative Party into a pale imitation of New Labour and rendered its MPs indistinguishable from their supposed opponents on the other side of the House.

The result is that, between them, Blair and Cameron contrived to turn two broad-church, national parties that commanded the allegiance of millions into a pair of narrow, elitist factions.

The true extent of that change had been masked by voters’ tribal loyalty and our first-past-the-post system, which delivers clear, decisive results in General Elections.

But the EU referendum tore apart the veil: it was now the People versus the Parliament.


Disraeli’s intuition was vindicated with the second Reform Act in 1867, the next major parliamentary change, which enfranchised the skilled working man and began the process that turned the Tories into the natural party of government [File photo]

The People voted 52 to 48 per cent to leave; an estimated 74 per cent of MPs voted to remain.

No representative assembly can sustain such a gulf. Either People or Parliament must give way.

And so it has proved as, in its profound lack of wisdom and in its disregard for the central thread of its own history, Parliament has decided it is the People who should change. Or, rather, be changed.

This is not the first time such a thing has happened. Before the fall of the Berlin Wall, Communist states were ruled by similarly pampered, out-of-touch and privileged elites who, against all the evidence, claimed to represent the People.

The People, shame on them, were ungrateful and in the habit of rebelling. After one such protest, the German poet and playwright Bertolt Brecht wrote one of the great poems of political dissent, including the satirical lines:

‘Wouldn’t it
Be simpler in that case if the government
Dissolved the people and
Elected another?’

When I first read the poem 50 years ago as a student, I laughed complacently because I knew it couldn’t happen here.

But it has. Since what is Remain or the campaign for a Second Referendum but an attempt to ‘dissolve the people and elect another’?

And where will it end? In other very British revolution? Or something nastier?

I don’t want to prophesy, good historian that I am, but I fear the worst.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...up-Brexit.html
 
Walter
+1
#2
The elite doesn’t want to lose its power.
 
Blackleaf
+1
#3
Quote: Originally Posted by Walter View Post

The elite doesn’t want to lose its power.

The Remain elite are going to lose the war over Brexit.

Do they really think the British people would stand by and do nothing if they overturn the largest democratic vote in British history?

It's either Brexit or violent revolution in Britain.
 
Walter
+1
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by Blackleaf View Post

The Remain elite are going to lose the war over Brexit.
Do they really think the British people would stand by and do nothing if they overturn the largest democratic vote in British history?
It's either Brexit or violent revolution in Britain.

Amen to that, but the elite doesn’t want to lose power. Same thing is happening in the US with all the fake news on Trump.
 
Tecumsehsbones
+1
#5
Who are the "elite," exactly?

If I recollect right, for most of the history of the alleged democracy in Britain, the "elite" was a hereditary class born with superior rights and legal status to those of the common run, due not to merit or ability, but to which vagina they happened to fall out of.
 
Danbones
Free Thinker
#6
The Iroquois six nation confederacy is laughing at all you followers.

The Six Nations:
Oldest Living Participatory Democracy on Earth
https://ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/

Still going strong.
 
Blackleaf
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by Tecumsehsbones View Post

Who are the "elite," exactly?

If I recollect right, for most of the history of the alleged democracy in Britain, the "elite" was a hereditary class born with superior rights and legal status to those of the common run, due not to merit or ability, but to which vagina they happened to fall out of.

The world's oldest democracy has Magna Carta as part of its constitution, which gave England what was almost a constitutional monarchy as early as the early 13th Century, whilst other European countries, such as France, Germany and Russia, were absolute monarchies for centuries afterwards.

England brought in powers to curb the elite and the monarchy much earlier than other countries did.
 
Danbones
Free Thinker
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by Blackleaf View Post

The Remain elite are going to lose the war over Brexit.
Do they really think the British people would stand by and do nothing if they overturn the largest democratic vote in British history?
It's either Brexit or violent revolution in Britain.

Just brick the doors and cut ALL the wires into the "City of London".
 
Tecumsehsbones
+2
#9  Top Rated Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Blackleaf View Post

The world's oldest democracy has Magna Carta as part of its constitution, which gave England what was almost a constitutional monarchy as early as the early 13th Century, whilst other European countries, such as France, Germany and Russia, were absolute monarchies for centuries afterwards.
England brought in powers to curb the elite and the monarchy much earlier than other countries did.

Nice try, but the world's oldest democracy is Iceland, where the Allthing has sat in session every year since 930 C.E., without any inconvenient interruptions like Cromwell that you choose to gloss over.
 
Blackleaf
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by Tecumsehsbones View Post

Nice try, but the world's oldest democracy is Iceland, where the Allthing has sat in session every year since 930 C.E., without any inconvenient interruptions like Cromwell that you choose to gloss over.


Iceland was ruled by Norway between 1262 and 1380 and by Denmark between 1380 and 1918.


The Althing was suspended between 1799 and 1844 .


Iceland was invaded and occupied by the British in 1940 and didn't become a fully independent, sovereign state until 1944.
 
Walter
#11
“Elite” is now an overused smear. But it is a fair pejorative when denoting a cadre that is not a natural or truly meritocratic top echelon, but is instead a group distinguished merely by schooling, associations, residence, connections and open disdain.

Victor Davis Hanson

https://amgreatness.com/2018/02/05/counterfeit-elitism/
 
Walter
#12
So what is a cultural elite?
It is a sloppy term that might include the academic class in the university that educates our children in college. The upper echelons that run government departments constitute part of this cultural elite. So does an entertainment cadre that oversees television and Hollywood. Corporate managers are elites as well.

Victor Davis Hanson

https://pjmedia.com/victordavishanso...ultural-elite/
 
Kreskin
#13
Declare a national brexit emergency.
 
Blackleaf
#14
RICHARD LITTLEJOHN: Democracy? It's all gone Humpty Dumpty as the politicians take leave of their senses

By RICHARD LITTLEJOHN FOR THE DAILY MAIL 15 March 2019 Daily Mail

The entire political class have taken leave of their senses. Both during the referendum campaign and since the result was announced, their behaviour has bordered on the clinically insane.

Of course, you should never underestimate their uncanny ability to make everything about them. But the unedifying orgy of self-indulgence we have seen over the past week has plumbed new depths of cynicism and opportunism . . .

No, not this past week. The paragraphs above are taken from my column on July 1, 2016, a few days after the result was declared. I warned you back then that the fix was already in, that embittered Remainers would do everything in their power to stop Brexit, either by holding a second referendum or forcing a General Election.


For the past almost three years we’ve been living in a Looking Glass World where, like Lewis Carroll’s Humpty Dumpty, words mean whatever the politicians say they mean

Getting on for three years later, and a few days before we were due to escape, that’s exactly where we are right now. As the Tory leadership candidates jockeyed for position to succeed Call Me Dave, I also said that Theresa May, a Remainer who spent the referendum campaign hiding behind the sofa, shouldn’t be allowed within a mile of No 10.

Then again, what do I know?

It gives me no pleasure to have been proved horribly right. By now, I had hoped we would be free of the shackles of the EU, forging a brilliant future as a freebooting, independent nation once more.

Fat chance of that happening any time soon. If ever.

Believe me, this is a column I didn’t want to have to write. Like you, I’m thoroughly sick of the whole Brexit circus, which is what the political class have been banking on all along.

The heart sinks whenever someone asks: ‘What’s going to happen over Brexit, Rich?’

I can only reply: ‘Ask me one on sport.’

As I wrote some time ago, I’ve run out of invective. The bile mine is exhausted. Fury has given way to resignation and despair. We can only watch this slow-motion car crash unfold with impotent frustration.

I’d always believed there would probably be some kind of 11th-hour form of words stitched up. It wouldn’t be ideal, but we’d have to swallow some watered down, marshmallow soft form of Brexit, which would allow us to leave with a modicum of dignity.

Sadly, Mrs May’s dismal, defeatist ‘deal’ doesn’t even reach that threshold. Nor will it, no matter how many times she brings it back to the Commons.
But I suppose it was always on the cards that the Remain headbangers were never going to rest until they’d halted Brexit altogether.

As of now, it looks as if they’ve won. They’re certainly well ahead on away goals. Ruling out No Deal effectively means No Brexit.

Be in no doubt that what we are witnessing is a coup against the people. There may not be tanks on the streets, but it’s a coup all the same. A few hundred MPs have decided to defy the will of the 17,410,742 British citizens who voted to leave the EU. It was the largest number of people to have voted for anything in our proud history.

But the majority of ‘Hon members’ have been determined to overturn the referendum result, despite repeatedly promising to ‘respect’ it. The electorate is being treated with undisguised contempt. If they get away with it — which they probably will — Britain will have ceased to be a proper democracy.

Any chance of securing a dignified exit from the EU was scuppered on Wednesday night, when MPs voted to take No Deal off the table.

What’s the point of entering any kind of negotiation when your opponents know there’s no chance of you walking away without a deal, no matter how derisory?

About the same as agreeing to pay a £39 billion bill up front, I guess, without knowing what you’re going to get in return. If you’re not prepared to walk away empty-handed, you’re going to get taken to the cleaners.

Curiously, one of the proposers of the No Deal motion was Labour MP Jack Dromey, a former trades union official and husband of Harriet Harman.

Jack used to be a national officer with the TGWU, now Unite. Somehow I can’t ever imagine him going into talks with an employer, on his hands and knees, promising that he’d take whatever pathetic pay rise they decided to offer and guaranteeing there was no danger that his members would go on strike. He’d have been lynched as a class traitor.


A lighter moment: Mrs May sees the funny side during yesterday’s debate as she sits in the Commons with Brexit Secretary Steve Barclay and Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Secretary Michael Gove

So why does he think that’s an appropriate way to approach negotiations with the EU?

Still, when it comes to Brexit, the usual rules don’t seem to apply. For the past almost three years we’ve been living in a Looking Glass World where, like Lewis Carroll’s Humpty Dumpty, words mean whatever the politicians say they mean.

Promises to respect the referendum result turn out not to be worth the manifestos they are written on.

‘No Deal is better than a bad deal,’ was just another meaningless, insincere pledge.

‘Brexit means Brexit.’ Don’t make me laugh. ‘We will leave on March 29, 2019.’ In your dreams.

On Monday night, we were asked to believe that May had secured a famous victory in Strasbourg. Anyone who watched her humiliated, hollowed-out husk sitting alongside a bombastic Jean-Claude Drunker at their press conference would have had no problem working out that she had achieved absolutely nothing of significance.

In the interests of gallantry, it is almost de rigueur to acknowledge that the Prime Minister has worked hard, done her best in difficult circumstances.

But, as I wrote in July 2016, she was never up to the job. Nor was her heart in it. She capitulated to the EU’s demands from the off, drove Leave campaigners from her Cabinet, and relied on unelected civil servants resolutely opposed to Brexit to construct her ‘deal’.

Worst of all, she deceived the British public, for which she deserves never to be forgiven. She’s entitled to humiliate herself, but she’s not entitled to humiliate her country.

May is by no means the only culprit, though. The 17.4 million Leave voters have been comprehensively betrayed by an unholy, cross-party alliance of MPs, big business, the judiciary and most of the media.

You can trace this week’s events back to the court case brought by that strange woman Gina Miller. Remember her?

Mrs Miller, married to a multi-millionaire hedge fund manager, and bankrolled by wealthy Remainers, many of whom lived abroad, managed to persuade the Supreme Court to give Parliament — not the Prime Minister — the power to determine when, and if, Brexit might happen.

It was, you might say, the ultimate backstop. Since then, MPs have gleefully seized even more control of the process, finally allowing them to stop Brexit in its tracks this week.


Theresa May, a Remainer who spent the referendum campaign hiding behind the sofa, shouldn’t be allowed within a mile of No 10, Richard Littlejohn writes

Meanwhile, Tony Blair, a former Prime Minister, has been encouraging EU leaders to stand firm against Britain.

‘Traitor’ is a highly-charged word, but how else to describe an ex-PM conspiring with foreign powers to thwart the will of his own people? Maybe Blair still hankers to be President of Europe some day.

Ultimately, however, this is about much more than just Brexit. It’s about how we are governed and whether we live in a functioning democracy. Right now, we don’t.

Why bother with a second referendum or, even, a General Election? We’ve had both in the past three years and the politicians have simply ignored promises they made at the time.

The referendum gave a clear instruction to Leave. At the election, 85 per cent of people voted for parties who promised to respect the referendum result.

Yet the overwhelming majority of MPs no longer feel it necessary to honour their manifesto commitments. Once inside the Westminster bubble, they think they can behave as they like, and to blazes with the people who pay their wages.

This isn’t representative government, it’s revolution. Parliament has rebelled against the people.

And for what? They’ve taken back control so they can sub-contract it out to unelected bureaucrats in Brussels.

Whatever happens now, our democracy is broken. Like Humpty Dumpty, it’s going to be a hell of a job to put it back together again.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...ty-Dumpty.html
 
Kreskin
+1
#15
Why did Nigel exit stage left after the referendum?
 
Blackleaf
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by Kreskin View Post

Why did Nigel exit stage left after the referendum?

He hasn't. He's still there as one of 7 Ukip MEPs in the EU Parliament (there were 24 but there were some defections).

Ukip are part of the EFDD (Europe of Freedom and Direct Democracy) grouping in the EU Parliament. The EFDD's two leaders are Nigel Farage and David Borrelli from Italy's Five Star Movement.
 
Blackleaf
#17
TONY PARSONS Our clueless MPs in Parliament do not represent normal British people

17.4m of us voted to leave the European Union, while 16m of us voted to stay — none of us however voted for the paralysis of our great country

By Tony Parsons
17th March 2019
The Sun

CALLING all MPs – just get it done, you useless bastards.

The pantomime in the House of Commons has nothing to do with the daily lives of the British people.


MPs have failed to secure Britain a good Brexit deal

17.4million of us voted to leave the European Union. 16million of us voted to stay. Not one of us voted for the paralysis of our great country.

You — our clueless elected representatives — have created this purgatory.

You — the most pathetic shower of MPs in British history — have contrived to bring about this national humiliation.

Prime Minister David Cameron looked us in the eye and told us the people’s decision was final.

Every Labour and Conservative Party MP stood on a manifesto that promised to honour the vote of the EU referendum.

MPs — this pitiful Parliament of pygmies, this reeking sewer of self-serving mediocrities, this house of preening fools who seem to believe they are our masters and not our servants — enshrined our exit from the EU in law.

Was it all a pack of lies?

For the sake of British democracy — and for the sake of the dwindling reputations of our MPs — I truly hope not.

What are you waiting for? You — our MPs — are turning the greatest nation in the world into an international laughing stock. You are crippling our economy.

Do you understand how angry we are with you?

To keep us in the European Union now would be a travesty.

It would be a denial of the democracy that better men and women than you fought and died for. It would be the final betrayal of the British people.

SO GET IT DONE!

Perhaps it is already too late. Perhaps the pro-Brussels majority in Parliament — so obscenely out of step with the people they are elected to represent — have already ensured the greatest national humiliation in our history.

How tragic that a nation that has not been invaded for a thousand years should be so pathetically eager to act like a defeated and occupied country, anxious to appease its mighty conqueror.

The Luftwaffe could not bring this country to its knees.

The IRA could not do it.

Islamic terrorists could not do it.

Napoleon could not do it.

The Spanish Armada could not do it.

For centuries nobody could take away our freedom.

And in the end, it is being given to the EU by all those preening nonentities in the House of Commons.

I am sick of looking at them. I am sick of their total insulation from anything resembling the real world, where men and women struggle and work and raise their children and worry about paying the bills.

Parliament has failed our people.

BACK THE PRIME MINISTER'S DEAL

The only hope now is that Theresa May’s deal gets out of its sickbed — or is that a deathbed? — and MPs finally back it when it is presented to the House of Commons for a third time on Tuesday.

The only alternative is our great country meekly grovelling back to Brussels to bleat: “Please, monsieur, may we stay after all?”

And if that happens, I swear to God our MPs will never be forgiven.

If MPs kill Brexit now, to the British people they will all be exactly the same — pampered, self-serving, anti-democratic toffs who should not be trusted to run a whelk stall, let alone a country. The lot of them.

Do the DUP really want IRA boot-lickers Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell in Downing Street?

Do Jacob Rees-Mogg and the European Research Group really want to see Brexit perish?

Do decent Labour MPs really want to play Judas to the British working class?

Then back the Prime Minister’s deal and . . .

GET THIS BLOODY THING DONE!


The only way to save Brexit is to vote for Theresa May's deal


Former Prime Minister David Cameron called the referendum

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/opinio...-tony-parsons/
 
Cliffy
Free Thinker
#18
 
Danbones
Free Thinker
#19
As the natives would say: "bug off whitey"

you trumphating globalist commies are the worst of them all.

The un resolution on illegal migration legal documents were just released - turns out it is arbitrary and binding. So you trumphaters lied again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-I8_EyG638
 
Curious Cdn
Conservative
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by Blackleaf View Post

Iceland was ruled by Norway between 1262 and 1380 and by Denmark between 1380 and 1918.
The Althing was suspended between 1799 and 1844 .
Iceland was invaded and occupied by the British in 1940 and didn't become a fully independent, sovereign state until 1944.

... and after that, it returned to being a democracy.
 
White_Unifier
#21
If May's deal passes, don't be surprised if people call for a second referendum five years on between keeping May's deal and negotiating a harder Brexit.

Many Brexiteers might accept May's deal, but they'll probably see it more as a goodtransition deal, but not what they want as a final deal.
 
Curious Cdn
Conservative
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by White_Unifier View Post

If May's deal passes, don't be surprised if people call for a second referendum five years on between keeping May's deal and negotiating a harder Brexit.
Many Brexiteers might accept May's deal, but they'll probably see it more as a goodtransition deal, but not what they want as a final deal.

You think that the Europeans will be interested in letting them back in?

Don't bet the farm on that.
 
White_Unifier
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by Curious Cdn View Post

You think that the Europeans will be interested in letting them back in?
Don't bet the farm on that.

Only if they accept the euro, from my understanding. Keeping the pound was a kind of grandfather clause since the UK was already in the EU. Once out, if it chooses to rejoin, it'll be treated just like any other neubie.
 
Curious Cdn
Conservative
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by White_Unifier View Post

Only if they accept the euro, from my understanding. Keeping the pound was a kind of grandfather clause since the UK was already in the EU. Once out, if it chooses to rejoin, it'll be treated just like any other neubie.

They'll have to beg, like the Turks and the Serbs.
 
pgs
Free Thinker
+1
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by Curious Cdn View Post

They'll have to beg, like the Turks and the Serbs.

Why will they want to get back into a failing institution ?
 
Cannuck
No Party Affiliation
-1
#26
Because its not failing
 
Curious Cdn
Conservative
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by pgs View Post

Why will they want to get back into a failing institution ?

Why did they let you out of your instution, pigs?
 
Blackleaf
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy View Post

And yet history has shown that the nation state prevails whilst multinational entities and empires like the EU eventually collapse.
 
Blackleaf
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by White_Unifier View Post

If May's deal passes, don't be surprised if people call for a second referendum five years on between keeping May's deal and negotiating a harder Brexit.

Many Brexiteers might accept May's deal, but they'll probably see it more as a goodtransition deal, but not what they want as a final deal.

1) There's not going to be a second referendum. Democracy has already spoken. And even if there will be, Leave will win again. The British people aren't going to vote to give up their sovereignty and independence and to join a failing and collapsing empire and join the discredited euro, which has brought impoverishment and economic collapse to many of the nations which unwisely joined it (unlike Britain, which wisely kept out of it despite europhiles telling us it would be a disaster if we DIDN'T join it).

2) Why would MPs vote in favour of May's deal next week if they voted against it twiced previously and the deal has hardly been changed?

3) Mrs May has indicated that she may not even put her deal before the Commons again. If so - or she does put the deal before the Commons and they vote it down again - then'll Britain will likely leave the EU on Friday 12th April with no deal.
 
Curious Cdn
Conservative
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by Blackleaf View Post

1) There's not going to be a second referendum. Democracy has already spoken. And even if there will be, Leave will win again. The British people aren't going to vote to give up their sovereignty and independence and to join a failing and collapsing empire and join the discredited euro, which has brought impoverishment and economic collapse to many of the nations which unwisely joined it (unlike Britain, which wisely kept out of it despite europhiles telling us it would be a disaster if we DIDN'T join it).
2) Why would MPs vote in favour of May's deal next week if they voted against it twiced previously and the deal has hardly been changed?
3) Mrs May has indicated that she may not even put her deal before the Commons again. If so - or she does put the deal before the Commons and they vote it down again - then'll Britain will likely leave the EU on Friday 12th April with no deal.


No, you are all well and truly fukced.