BREAKING: Ontario PC Leader Slammed With Sexual Misconduct Allegations


White_Unifier
#61
I've suffered different degrees of sexual assault in childhood and adulthood. The worst instance of this involved a physical sexual assault by a woman.

I never reported her to the police, and there were a few reasons for this:

1. I had contributed negligently my own assault through actions that had put me in a vulnerable position. That's not to say that that excused the assault. In no way did it excuse it. But I was too ashamed to admit to anyone how I'd negligently contributed to it.

2. Should I have revealed my attacker in the court of public opinion, two things could come of it: people believe me or they disbelieve me. If they disbelieve me, then I look like a fool; and if they believe me, then how do they know I'm telling the truth and not just defaming the alleged attacker's character? Even if I know what happened to me to be true, should anyone just blindly believe me because #Ibelieve, then for me to possess that kind of power would scare me. After all, what if someone should make a false accusation against me one day?

For these reasons, I'd never reported it in a criminal court nor in the court of public opinion. Even if point 1 above had not applied, I would not have wanted that kind of power to just accuse and automatically be believed. I knew I couldn't ave proved it in a court of law. Even if I'd gone to get a rape kit test, all it would have proved was that we had sex, not whether it was consensual or not.

It's a shame that these kinds of things are so difficult to prove beyond reasonable doubt; but whether we like it or not, this kind of thing belongs in a court of law, not in the court of public opinion.

That said, if point 1 had not applied, I certainly would have made a criminal complaint.
Last edited by White_Unifier; Jan 25th, 2018 at 12:36 PM..
 
B00Mer
No Party Affiliation
#62
Quote: Originally Posted by White_Unifier View Post

I've suffered different degrees of sexual assault in childhood and adulthood.

WOW Man, sorry to hear that.
 
White_Unifier
#63
Oh, and in spite of my experience, I still oppose rape shield laws: they merely increase the risk of a wrongful conviction. I can categorically say that a sexual assault is a traumatic experience even when the victim is physically stronger than the attacker; but still, the consequences of a wrongful conviction are too great to play around with. Even in the best of conditions, wrongful convictions will happen. I accept that. It's the nature of the beast. But we don't need to exacerbate it with rape shield laws.
 
Hoid
#64
live on cbc the ontario tories explaining why they shit canned this guy on a couple of allegations
 
White_Unifier
#65
Quote: Originally Posted by B00Mer View Post

WOW Man, sorry to hear that.

I'm not alone. Read the stats:

According to Melissa and Joshua Hall in The Long-Term Effects of Childhood Sexual Abuse: Counselling Implications, ‘twenty-eight to 33% of women and 12 to 18% of men were victims of childhood or adolescent sexual abuse (Roland, 2002, as cited in Long, Burnett, & Thomas, 2006).’

‘Survivors of sexual abuse may experience difficulty in establishing interpersonal relationships. Symptoms correlated with childhood sexual abuse may hinder the development and growth of relationships. Common relationship difficulties that survivors may experience are difficulties with trust, fear of intimacy, fear of being different or weird, difficulty establishing interpersonal boundaries, passive behaviors, and getting involved in abusive relationships (Ratican, 1992).’
https://www.counseling.org/docs/disa...xual-abuse.pdf

In the online pdf article Sex Addiction on the Internet by Mark Griffith (Nottingham Trent University, UK), the author states:
‘It is hard to establish the extent of sex addiction although estimates range from 3-6% of the population (Carnes, 1999). Further, research indicates a high correlation between childhood abuse and sexual addiction in adulthood, and it is very common for sex addicts to have experienced high levels of emotional, physical and/or sexual abuse. Socio-demographic characteristics are skewed by those who turn up for treatment in specialist clinics or self-help groups such as Sexaholics Anonymous (SA), Sexual Compulsives Anonymous (SCA), and Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous (SLAA). It appears to be mostly male with an increasing number of females. However, sex addictions appear to come from all races, classes and sexual orientations.’

He goes on to state:
‘Sex addiction appears to have recognizable behaviour patterns (Carnes, 1999). This involves acting out a pattern of out of control sexual behaviour (e.g. compulsive masturbation, persistent indulging in pornography, having constant affairs, etc.) in which severe mood changes relate to sexual activity. The sex addict experiences severe consequences due to sexual behaviour and an inability to stop despite these adverse consequences. These consequences can include loss of partner or spouse, severe marital or relationship problems, loss of career opportunities, unwanted pregnancies, abortions, suicidal obsession, suicide attempts, exposure to sexually transmitted diseases, and legal risks from nuisance offences to rape. Sex addicts gradually increase the amount of sexual activity because the current level of activity is no longer sufficiently satisfying (i.e. they build up tolerance). As tolerance develops, individuals may find themselves seeking out more unusual sexual experiences, and more graphic pornography. These behaviour patterns are only indicative and do not preclude other signs that may be indicative of sex addiction.’
http://www.janushead.org/7-1/griffiths.pdf

Studies suggest not only that substance and gambling addiction afflict prostituted persons, but that sex addiction itself might permeate the sex industry through not only clients but sellers too:
‘It is argued that legalized brothels or other "controlled" prostitution establishments "protect" women through enforceable condom policies. In one of CATW's studies, U.S. women in prostitution interviewed reported the following: 47% stated that men expected sex without a condom; 73% reported that men offered to pay more for sex without a condom; 45% of women said they were abused if they insisted that men use condoms. Some women said that certain establishments may have rules that men wear condoms but, in reality, men still try to have sex without them. One woman stated: "It's 'regulation' to wear a condom at the sauna, but negotiable between parties on the side. Most guys expected blow jobs without a condom (Raymond and Hughes: 2001)."’
10 Reasons for Not Legalizing Prostitution | Vancouver Rape Relief & Women's Shelter


According to Paul Gertler, Manisha Shah, and Stefano M. Bertozzi on page 24 of Risky Business: The Market for Unprotected Commercial Sex (2003):
‘We find that sex workers in Mexico are responding rationally to financial incentives. There is strong evidence that sex workers are willing to assume the risks associated with providing unprotected sex for a 23 percent higher price. This premium increased to 46 percent if the sex worker was considered very attractive, a clear indication of her bargaining power. However, clients who preferred condom use paid an 8 percent premium to use condoms and sex workers who did not want to use condoms had to reduce the price by 20 percent to compensate clients for taking the risk.’
http://manishashah.bol.ucla.edu/papers/shah_JPE.pdf

Both buyers and sellers who know the health and pregnancy risks of unprotected sex with anonymous partners in random hook-ups offer a premium or a discount to actively seek it or even rape for it. This suggests not ignorance but rather compulsive behaviour and thus an indicator of a possible behavioural addiction. From a mental-health perspective, the relationship between a buyer and a seller is less one between two ‘consenting’ adults and more one comparable to two heroin addicts getting together to share needles to drown the pain of their trauma. While two heroin addicts may ‘consent’ to sharing needles, a behavioural addiction coerces them into that ‘consent.’ Prostitution can serve as a gateway drug leading to escalation to ever more violent behaviour for both the buyer and the seller. I don’t see how two trauma survivors getting together to have anonymous emotionally-detached sex benefits either of them.

‘Half of all women in Canada have experienced at least one incident of physical or sexual violence since the age of 16.’
http://canadianwomen.org/facts-about-violence

Furthermore, sexual violence against women can contribute to a trans-generational and inter-sexual cycle of violence: ‘A total of 43 percent of high school boys and young college men reported they had an unwanted sexual experience and of those, 95 percent said a female acquaintance was the aggressor, according to a study published online in the APA journal Psychology of Men and Masculinity®.’
http://www.apa.org/news/press/releas...erced-sex.aspx

Quote: Originally Posted by Hoid View Post

live on cbc the ontario tories explaining why they shit canned this guy on a couple of allegations

Again, I have no qualms about :

1. a person telling me that he or she has been abused.

2. a person asking for help for abuse.

3. a person filing a criminal complaint against an attacker.

I'm in two minds about a person identifying his or her attacker to me without being willing to then make a criminal complaint against the alleged attacker. He or she might be telling the truth, I can empathize, I can understand that the person might fear going to court, I might be willing to help, but how can I judge the alleged attacker without proof?

I totally oppose a person identifying their attacker except in vague terms that don't identify a particular person in the court of public opinion and then refuse to make a criminal complaint. Not because the person is lying necessarily, but just because making such an accusation is bloody serious and not to be taken lightly.
 
Danbones
Free Thinker
#66
Quote: Originally Posted by Hoid View Post

due process for sex abusers but not for victims

that is timelessly conservative.

Coming from a defender of pedos and KNOWN liars - that's pretty sad doood.
Lying about someone being a rapist is as bad as being a rapist, so is protecting and promoting those liars.
 
mentalfloss
#67
Quote: Originally Posted by Jinentonix View Post

Right. Which is why Trudeau and Morneau still haven't stepped down for violating federal law.
Funny that eh? You approve of Conservatives resigning over allegations yet insist that Trudeau is completely innocent of federal violations of which he has actually been found guilty.

Then we have the Ontario Liberals who shoved a sex-ed curriculum on the children that was drafted by a convicted pedophile. Yet you defended the curriculum and the Liberal's decision to go with it because it was just so "progressive".

Spare us your false morality. It's a f*cking joke.

False equivalence - and a pretty obvious one at that.


Quote: Originally Posted by avro24 View Post

It's to bad, I liked Patrick Brown.

To be sure, so-cons are happier than Libs are about this.

Nope.

They just confirmed they're keeping the same platform so social conservatives can stay enraged.

Quote: Originally Posted by White_Unifier View Post

That's what the criminal justice system is for.

For reassuring politicians why they lost their job?

Quote: Originally Posted by Danbones View Post

Coming from a defender of pedos and KNOWN liars - that's pretty sad doood.
Lying about someone being a rapist is as bad as being a rapist, so is protecting and promoting those liars.

He's never defended paedophiles.

Unlike you.
 
White_Unifier
#68
I'm just saying that identifying a person as a sexual attacker is a powerful act and not to be made frivolously. I'm not accusing the accuser of making it up. Without facts, my first instinct would be to believe since few people would make such a thing up. However, that instinct is precisely what false accusers rely on. Even if the accuser is telling the truth (and she may very well be), still the power of being unquestioningly believed is a powerful one.
 
mentalfloss
#69
Ed Holder withdraws from Ontario PC Nomination for London West
 
Walter
+1 / -2
#70
Quote: Originally Posted by Hoid View Post

How can that be true when conservatives hate just about everyone?

That's why conservatives give much more to charity and do more volunteer werk than progs do.
 
mentalfloss
#71
Not as a percentage of their income.



"It's a difficult and brave thing to do to come forward in the way these young women have done tonight. My government and I have been clear on the issue of sexual harassment and assault. In fact our policy and our ad were called 'It's Never Okay."' -- Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne.
 
mentalfloss
#72
Who will lead the PC Party after Patrick Brown's resignation?
https://www.timminstoday.com/local-n...gnation-822155
 
Twin_Moose
Conservative
#73
It really is impeccable timing for a 20 year old claim, hope they get to the bottom of it
 
Twin_Moose
Conservative
#74
Probably did hit on her if there was more someone should get to the bottom of it not saying she is lying at all
 
mentalfloss
#75
Fedeli issues statement on Brown

“This evening, we learned of disturbing allegations levelled against Patrick Brown.

“The Ontario PC Caucus unanimously agrees that Mr. Brown cannot continue serving as the Leader.

“Mr. Brown is entitled to a legal defence and due process, but he cannot lead us into an election as a result of these allegations.

“The Ontario PC caucus unequivocally upholds the principle that a safe and respectful society is what we expect and deserve. We need to move forward to eradicate sexual violence and harassment across the province.

“Our caucus will immediately consult with party officials and members on best way to move forward to defeat the (Kathleen) Wynne government in the 2018 election.

“We will not be diverted from our mission to ensure our strong team can share our message of change.”

Fedeli issues statement on Brown | North Bay Nugget
 
Danbones
Free Thinker
+1
#76
MF you of all people have proven time and time again that you antifappers guys are all about baseless allegations

cheating is the only way you can wynn.
 
petros
+1
#77
Quote: Originally Posted by B00Mer View Post

Picked up a .30-30 Win. yesterday..

I love my 1894. 20" barrel is perfect for the bush and in close defensive. The balance is impeccable making it super easy to handle.

Quote: Originally Posted by mentalfloss View Post

Fedeli issues statement on Brown

“This evening, we learned of disturbing allegations levelled against Patrick Brown.

“The Ontario PC Caucus unanimously agrees that Mr. Brown cannot continue serving as the Leader.

“Mr. Brown is entitled to a legal defence and due process, but he cannot lead us into an election as a result of these allegations.

“The Ontario PC caucus unequivocally upholds the principle that a safe and respectful society is what we expect and deserve. We need to move forward to eradicate sexual violence and harassment across the province.

“Our caucus will immediately consult with party officials and members on best way to move forward to defeat the (Kathleen) Wynne government in the 2018 election.

“We will not be diverted from our mission to ensure our strong team can share our message of change.”

Fedeli issues statement on Brown | North Bay Nugget

They can run without a leader and still beat Wynne.
 
Danbones
Free Thinker
#78
Yeah funny enough, wynne is a bit of a rainbow freak her self.
 
mentalfloss
#79
Scrambling.

Ontario Tories to pick interim leader on Friday
 
White_Unifier
#80
Whether the allegations are true or not, let him deal with it.
 
mentalfloss
#81
Who's stopping him from dealing with it?
 
Hoid
#82
I wonder if accusing someone of supporting pedophiles is as bad as being a pedophile
 
Walter
#83
Quote: Originally Posted by mentalfloss View Post

Not as a percentage of their income.

Bleeding Heart Tightwads - The New York Times
 
B00Mer
No Party Affiliation
#84
Quote: Originally Posted by Danbones View Post

Yeah funny enough, wynne is a bit of a rainbow freak her self.

Homophobic much Danbones...

Lesbian girls friends are the best, they always bring a friend
 
WLDB
No Party Affiliation
#85
Quote: Originally Posted by IdRatherBeSkiing View Post

Bob Rae pretty much assured that the NDP will never form a government in Ontario ever again.

It’s been nearly 25 years since he left office. Quite a few voters were either born later or were too young to remember what happened. Give it another 10 years or so and that’ll be a significant voting block.
 
Curious Cdn
Conservative
+1
#86
Quote: Originally Posted by WLDB View Post

It’s been nearly 25 years since he left office. Quite a few voters were either born later or were too young to remember what happened. Give it another 10 years or so and that’ll be a significant voting block.

My wife (an RPN, at the time) still spits out the expression "Rae Days" for that famous labour-friendly, NDP bright idea to not pay nurses in hospitals now and again. I'm quite sure that all of those NDP MPPs never missed a paycheque.
 
WLDB
No Party Affiliation
#87
Quote: Originally Posted by Dixie Cup View Post



And, what has happened to innocent until proven guilty? Many of these men have said they aren't guilty and as a lawyer I heard on the radio state, these men who say they are innocent need to have the balls to stand up to those women if they are being wrongly accused instead of going and hiding. No man is safe, that's for sure and we've become a society of judges without due process. It is extremely worrisome for sure!!

DIx

Nothing happened to that rule. That line is something that has always only referred to the Justice System, not public opinion. If Brown had been thrown in prison without charges or trial then you’d have a point and it would be worrisome. He hasn’t been. He’s still a free man who can do whatever he wants. He chose to quit rather than stay and fight. It’ll be interesting to see if he chooses to fight now that he’s out. No one has forced any of these men out of their positions. They chose resignation and to disappear. Brown also chose public life. When you do that you open yourself to all kinds of personal attacks whether they’re justified or not.

Quote: Originally Posted by Curious Cdn View Post

My wife (an RPN, at the time) still spits out the expression "Rae Days" for that famous labour-friendly, NDP bright idea to not pay nurses in hospitals now and again. I'm quite sure that all of those NDP MPPs never missed a paycheque.

My grandmother did too Back when she was lucid. None of those MPPs are around anymore and it happened decades ago. Doesn’t really matter now. I’m not voting for them this time around but I don’t particularly care what any party did 20 years ago. I care about what they and their candidates are now.

Quote: Originally Posted by White_Unifier View Post


It's a shame that these kinds of things are so difficult to prove beyond reasonable doubt; but whether we like it or not, this kind of thing belongs in a court of law, not in the court of public opinion.

That said, if point 1 had not applied, I certainly would have made a criminal complaint.

When it involves a public person seeking the top job in the province it belongs in both. Voters should know what type of person their candidates are. Better to know now than to wind up hearing about it once they’re actually in office. If he had stayed on and decided to fight and give his side of the story maybe the voters would have believed him, or maybe not. We will never know now. If he was a private citizen like you and I then no one would really care.
 
10larry
+2
#88
Something called time did happen to innocent until proved guilty, by the time 'justice' is rendered two elections can easily pass offering no help to victim Brown. In his case no judge or jury is needed hi profile feminists like kathleen, andrea and justin have declared him guilty, no mention whatsoever of evidentiary conviction by them, he is guilty period.
Guilt or innocence matters not the damage is done, timing is really suspect and the libs corrupt track record leads me to suspect they had a finger in orchestrating this drama.
 
taxslave
Free Thinker
+1
#89
Quote: Originally Posted by DaSleeper View Post

I think that all politicians before being elected should prove that they are eligible for canonization....That it!!!

Is that like being shot from a cannon?

Quote: Originally Posted by B00Mer View Post

Homophobic much Danbones...

Lesbian girls friends are the best, they always bring a friend

But they don't do Dick.

Quote: Originally Posted by WLDB View Post

Nothing happened to that rule. That line is something that has always only referred to the Justice System, not public opinion. If Brown had been thrown in prison without charges or trial then you’d have a point and it would be worrisome. He hasn’t been. He’s still a free man who can do whatever he wants. He chose to quit rather than stay and fight. It’ll be interesting to see if he chooses to fight now that he’s out. No one has forced any of these men out of their positions. They chose resignation and to disappear. Brown also chose public life. When you do that you open yourself to all kinds of personal attacks whether they’re justified or not.



My grandmother did too Back when she was lucid. None of those MPPs are around anymore and it happened decades ago. Doesn’t really matter now. I’m not voting for them this time around but I don’t particularly care what any party did 20 years ago. I care about what they and their candidates are now.



When it involves a public person seeking the top job in the province it belongs in both. Voters should know what type of person their candidates are. Better to know now than to wind up hearing about it once they’re actually in office. If he had stayed on and decided to fight and give his side of the story maybe the voters would have believed him, or maybe not. We will never know now. If he was a private citizen like you and I then no one would really care.

If he was a private citizen these false allegations would never have been made. The timing on this one just does not pass the smell test.
 
Dixie Cup
Conservative
+4
#90
Quote: Originally Posted by mentalfloss View Post

Blame the victim is an obvious opinion for conbots.


Patrick Brown and priorities: Why the PC Party leader couldn't last - Macleans.ca



Where was this "victim" 20 and 6 years ago? Why wouldn't they have complained then?


Cam you tell me exactly where you were and what exactly you were doing 20 years ago - specifically on oh, lets say August 9, 1998? What specifically were you doing that day?


That's what I'm objecting to - all this coming up NOW. If this would have happened last year or 6 months or 6 weeks ago that's one thing. But who of us here on CC can say that we haven't one way or the other been disrespectful or did something really stupid when we were younger and have regrets now?


Weinstein (or whatever his name is) showed CONSISTENT behavior for years and years and years and NOW people are coming forward? Where the hell were they when his "activities" were first discovered? He should be in jail with the key thrown away because he's a serial sexual deviant (for lack of a better word). Anyone who does what he did should face prosecution.


However, stupidity of actions taken 10, 20 and 30 years ago should not be included with those of the Weinstein ilk. Both men and women need to take responsibility for their actions but it seems to me that it's a one-way street and that's all I'm saying and it's simply not fair. When a woman says that a man sexually assaulted her in his bedroom, what the hell was she doing in his bedroom to begin with? Again, it's all on him.


Pamela Anderson was absolutely scourged because she said when a man wants to do an interview at his apartment and he opened the door in a housecoat, run the other way and she's absolutely right. Any man that does that should be tarred and feathered but women have some responsibility as well - by simply not putting themselves into the situation to begin with.


Having said that of course there's exceptions and of course sexual assault should be reported and the victim believed. I'm just saying that some of this is going too far and it takes away from the real victims who have suffered and continue to suffer from the repercussions.


So Mentalflosse, if that means as a "con bot" that I am blaming the victim, in some circumstances, I do. Many, many of these situations could have been avoided by the women. Does that absolve the men? Absolutely not - men like that are morons but women must take some responsibility and it seems to me they have none and that's not right.


JMHO


.