What should Canada give up in new NAFTA


Cliffy
Free Thinker
#391
Give up NAFTA. We really don't want to be associated with Nazi Yankeeland.
 
Curious Cdn
Conservative
#392
Quote: Originally Posted by White_Unifier View Post

They're all short-term or busy-work policies. Debt-financed growth is unsustainable in the long run, and tariffs create work by introducing inefficiencies (like a trucker shipping a product from a factory in NYC to Seattle when a business in Vancouver produces the same product, or when a factory in the US must produce a product on a small scale due to retaliatory tariffs when it could otherwise have shipped abroad too, or a factory that buys a less ideal machine domestically to avoid the tariffs on what would have been a more ideal machine, etc.).
All of that does create work, but it's busy work, not actual wealth-generating work.

BTW, that trucker (and most/all other drivers) are about to be replaced by automation as are most workers as A.I. takes hold. Accountants, Engineers and most white collar occupations can and are being replaced by software. Service Sector is going to take up the surplus, you say? Those are not wealth generating occupations and, besides, as smaller and smaller sectors of the economy receive a living wage, service jobs will necessarily deteriorate into barter trade.

The top 1-2% will have concentrated almost all of the wealth of North America to themselves right up to the day that they'll all end up swinging from lamp posts.
 
White_Unifier
#393
Quote: Originally Posted by Curious Cdn View Post

BTW, that trucker (and most/all other drivers) are about to be replaced by automation as are most workers as A.I. takes hold. Accountants, Engineers and most white collar occupations can and are being replaced by software. Service Sector is going to take up the surplus, you say? Those are not wealth generating occupations and, besides, as smaller and smaller sectors of the economy receive a living wage, service jobs will necessarily deteriorate into barter trade.
The top 1-2% will have concentrated almost all of the wealth of North America to themselves right up to the day that they'll all end up swinging from lamp posts.

I agree that the wealth have a moral responsibility towards the poor, but debt-financing and creating busy work are not the way to do it. Introduce a moderate wealth tax (say, 20% of accumulated wealth above essential and business assets and minus debt) and use that to provide trades and professional education for the unemployed, the under-employed, and the underpaid. Automation doesn't produce itself. Someone needs to build and maintain the equipment. While the equipment may replace workers, it also creates new, higher paid work for others. Instead of doing inefficient work at low pay, you can build or repair a machine that can produce far more efficiently than a person ever could and so that raises your wages. However, the poor need the skills for those jobs. Right now we have labour shortages and unemployed people. Why? Because they don't have the skills for the available work and no money to get the needed training. So the logical thing for the state to do is provide the training to match the shortage. I'm not saying immigration can't solve some of this too, but we need to help the poor too. In fact, the immigrants can expand the necessary tax base to help the poor.
 
Twin_Moose
Conservative
#394
Quote: Originally Posted by Curious Cdn View Post

If that were true, he would have left his tax cuts for the rich out and applied those monies to reducing their masdive and ballooning deficit. He has created a bonanza for an incredibly rich 1.5% of the population and no one else benefits. They are not going to dust off 50 year old steel Mills. Ain't going to happen. Why have American steel and aluminum mills closed by the dozen? The Ameticns are too sloppy and slow to compete and Americans have failed to invest in modern operations.

Top 2 in Bing search

Company restarting U.S. Steel McKeesport mill says workers needed

After 19 idle months, Iron Range taconite plant to resume operations
 
White_Unifier
#395
Quote: Originally Posted by Twin_Moose View Post

Top 2 in Bing search
Company restarting U.S. Steel McKeesport mill says workers needed
After 19 idle months, Iron Range taconite plant to resume operations

Why weren't consumers choosing to buy from them before the tariffs went up? Do you not trust the consumer's ability to decide for himself what products suit him best, comrade?

It would seem to me that US consumers are being coerced to buy these products even though in a freer market, they would have bought from elsewhere instead. In other words, they're buying a product at a higher price or that otherwise does not meet their needs as well as an alternative would have.
 
Curious Cdn
Conservative
+1
#396
Quote: Originally Posted by Twin_Moose View Post

Top 2 in Bing search
Company restarting U.S. Steel McKeesport mill says workers needed
After 19 idle months, Iron Range taconite plant to resume operations

Tariffs fossilize inefficiencies in the economy. The effect is similar to what happens in planned economies, such as Communist ones in which they become increasingly backward as their old (or previously shut down enterprises) are kept on artificial life support through protective trade tariffs.

The US gets a bit more backward every day on a range of fronts and are essentially abdicating their leadership role.
 
White_Unifier
#397
Quote: Originally Posted by Curious Cdn View Post

Tariffs fossilize inefficiencies in the economy. The effect is similar to what happens in planned economies, such as Communist ones in which they become increasingly backward as their old (or previously shut down enterprises) are kept on artificial life support through protective trade tariffs.
The US gets a bit more backward every day on a range of fronts and are essentially abdicating their leadership role.

Bingo. Promoting economic efficiency costs jobs, unfortunately. If we want the economy to advance, we don't want to fossilize inefficiencies just to protect outdated jobs. Yes, this thus makes it harder for a government to help those affected since it might require more government investment in universal compulsory education, trades and professional education, addiction therapy, literacy education, and other strategies to help a worker back into the workforce. Allowing improvements in efficiency does result in a more volatile and constantly-changing economy that thus requires the government to constantly retrain its unemployed and underpaid; but however difficult that may be, it's far preferable to just fossilizing an economy in time. Yes, debt-financing and tariffs are a quick way to boost an economy in the short-term, and Trump is a short-term thinker, so I guess such a strategy suits him well since he can't understand the long-term consequences of his actions.
 
White_Unifier
#398
Just to be clear though, I think Canada is just as bad as if not worse than trump in many of these respects. Just think Canadian content rules, supply management and agricultural tariffs, restrictions on foreign telecommunications companies in Canada, etc. If anything, rather than copy Canada's example, Trump should look to Canada as an example what not to do. But he's Trump, what do you expect.
 
pgs
Free Thinker
+1
#399
Quote: Originally Posted by White_Unifier View Post

Legally, Canada could still give 6 months' notice even after ratifying it. Add to that that we've not even ratified it yet.

Personally, I think Canada should adopt unilateral global free trade.

You can trade whatever commodity you want with who ever you want , whydoyouexpect our government to do your work for you?
 
White_Unifier
#400
Quote: Originally Posted by pgs View Post

You can trade whatever commodity you want with who ever you want , whydoyouexpect our government to do your work for you?

Because the government decides to what degree I can trade internationally. Are you encouraging me to break the law by sneaking tariffed and quotaed products into Canada tariff and quota free? Wouldn't that qualify as incitement under Canadian law? You have no right to encourage me to commit a criminal offence since to do so is an offence itself.
 
pgs
Free Thinker
#401
Quote: Originally Posted by Curious Cdn View Post

BTW, that trucker (and most/all other drivers) are about to be replaced by automation as are most workers as A.I. takes hold. Accountants, Engineers and most white collar occupations can and are being replaced by software. Service Sector is going to take up the surplus, you say? Those are not wealth generating occupations and, besides, as smaller and smaller sectors of the economy receive a living wage, service jobs will necessarily deteriorate into barter trade.

The top 1-2% will have concentrated almost all of the wealth of North America to themselves right up to the day that they'll all end up swinging from lamp posts.

What is going to happen to bottle collectors George ? Worried ?
 
pgs
Free Thinker
#402
Quote: Originally Posted by White_Unifier View Post

Because the government decides to what degree I can trade internationally. Are you encouraging me to break the law by sneaking tariffed and quotaed products into Canada tariff and quota free? Wouldn't that qualify as incitement under Canadian law? You have no right to encourage me to commit a criminal offence since to do so is an offence itself.

Not at all , Iam encouraging you to cash in on your energy and intelligence.
 
White_Unifier
#403
Quote: Originally Posted by pgs View Post

What is going to happen to bottle collectors George ? Worried ?

I imagine we'll need people to build and fix those too, no? Bottle-collectors don't fix themselves.
 
White_Unifier
#404
Quote: Originally Posted by pgs View Post

Not at all , Iam encouraging you to cash in on your energy and intelligence.

Sure. But if Canada raises protectionist measures against other countries, that increases the risk of them retaliating. Even if they don't retaliate, what if I discover that Canada is imposing high tariffs on the very products that I would need to import to develop my own product? How would that help me to compete on world markets? Like I said, even if the other countries didn't retaliate, I'd still be paying more for the materials and machinery that I would need to produce my products, an overhead cost that similar businesses abroad might not need to pay. Would that not put me at a disadvantage?
 
Curious Cdn
Conservative
#405
Quote: Originally Posted by White_Unifier View Post

I imagine we'll need people to build and fix those too, no? Bottle-collectors don't fix themselves.

Machines are being designed to diagnose and fix themselves.

http://technologies.research.gwu.edu...omous-machines
 
Twin_Moose
Conservative
#406
Quote: Originally Posted by White_Unifier View Post

Why weren't consumers choosing to buy from them before the tariffs went up? Do you not trust the consumer's ability to decide for himself what products suit him best, comrade?
It would seem to me that US consumers are being coerced to buy these products even though in a freer market, they would have bought from elsewhere instead. In other words, they're buying a product at a higher price or that otherwise does not meet their needs as well as an alternative would have.

Quote: Originally Posted by Curious Cdn View Post

Tariffs fossilize inefficiencies in the economy. The effect is similar to what happens in planned economies, such as Communist ones in which they become increasingly backward as their old (or previously shut down enterprises) are kept on artificial life support through protective trade tariffs.
The US gets a bit more backward every day on a range of fronts and are essentially abdicating their leadership role.

Oh OK cheap material from foreign countries have nothing to do with it, OK gotcha
 
White_Unifier
#407
Quote: Originally Posted by Twin_Moose View Post

Oh OK cheap material from foreign countries have nothing to do with it, OK gotcha

They have everything to do with it. Would you rather buy Canadian oranges grown in a greenhouse in winter or oranges at half the price imported from the USA? If you force a business to buy expensive steel for its production when it could otherwise have bought less expensive steel from abroad, then are you not raising its overhead costs which it will then need to pass on to the consumer? How is it supposed to compete in world markets in that case? Sure it might have the tariff advantage domestically, but it will lose any past competitive advantage in any export market. suddenly, you've just reduced US manufacturing to the domestic market on a low economy of scale. And the US consumer will pay for it.
 
Twin_Moose
Conservative
#408
So by deregulating some of the policies to reduce cost, to get the prices in line with foreign markets, and protect them to get back into the game while the majority of taxpayers support the decision is bad? If the tariffs remain for an over extended time frame then I, and as well venture to guess the majority of taxpayers, would agree with you.
 
White_Unifier
#409
Quote: Originally Posted by Twin_Moose View Post

So by deregulating some of the policies to reduce cost, to get the prices in line with foreign markets, and protect them to get back into the game while the majority of taxpayers support the decision is bad? If the tariffs remain for an over extended time frame then I, and as well venture to guess the majority of taxpayers, would agree with you.

The problem is that once a tariff is introduced, special interests soon coalesce around it to make it politically difficult to remove them afterwards. Just look at Canadian Content rules, protection for Canadian telecommunication companies, supply management and dairy tariffs, etc. Once in place, they're politically difficult to remove afterwards even if they harm the consumer and the economy.

The longer the tariffs remain, the tougher it will be for US politicians to remove them afterwards.
 
spilledthebeer
#410
Quote: Originally Posted by White_Unifier View Post

Legally, Canada could still give 6 months' notice even after ratifying it. Add to that that we've not even ratified it yet.

Personally, I think Canada should adopt unilateral global free trade.


================================================== ================================================== ====


There is reason to believe that the revised NAFTA IS DEAD on arrival!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


NOBODY is satisfied with it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Not Cdns- for good reasons related to LIE-berals selling out our dairy and lumber producers and our steel and and aluminum producers as well- just so Our idiot Boy could refuse to be serious about national security!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Yankees are certainly not happy with it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Many states have Canada as their main trading partner and tariffs on Cdn stuff will hurt them too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Many other Yankees- of the Tea Party type- want to turn back the clock to 1930`s style Yankee isolation and neutrality!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The Tea Party types would be quite happy to close the borders ENTIRELY and only allow in a select few Cdns of the sort Harper referred to as "old stock' -meaning sensible, honest and logical!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Cooler heads on both sides of the border recognize that Our idiot Boy Justin- who some Yankees refer to as a "punk kid"- is on his way out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Once that idiot Boy and his loser LIE-berals hit the unemployment line- then a new Cdn govt with an honest concern about national security will take over and arrange a FAIR DEAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The year 2019 will usher in momentous changes........one way or another!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Twin_Moose
Conservative
#411
Hahaha Offered the Canadian dairy for a better deal

Opening dairy market to U.S. was biggest concession in trade talks , Freeland says

Quote:

"I think probably the issue which Canadians are very aware was a difficult one and where the U.S. wanted increased access, was access to the Canadian dairy market," she said.
"I feel comfortable with the deal that we struck, the level of increased access is comparable to was what agreed to by the Conservative government in the [Trans-Pacific Partnership] negotiations. That was a compromise that we offered to the United States as part of a broader deal."

 
Twin_Moose
Conservative
#412
Feisty exchange between Essex MP and PM over USMCA photo op with Trump

Quote:

Essex NDP MP Tracey Ramsey is slamming Justin Trudeau's trade strategy as the Liberals try to have U.S. steel and aluminum tariffs removed on those Canadian materials.
"Is the prime minister so vain that he thinks depriving the U.S. of his presence from a photo op is the best trade strategy to get rid of the tariffs?" Ramsey asked in the House of Commons on Thursday.
The United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement (USMCA) will still be signed by the three countries.
However, Canada's ambassador in Washington says the prime minister Trudeau will not be taking part in any sort of signing ceremony alongside U.S. President Donald Trump — unless American tariffs on steel and aluminum are lifted first.
"[Trudeau] just doesn't want his picture [signing] it, and who could blame him? I wouldn't want my picture taken signing it either," said Ramsey. "These tariffs are killing jobs."
Trudeau responded by saying people in the Windsor region are "overwhelmingly" happy with how the USMCA secures access to the United States for years to come.
"As I told the steel and aluminum workers on the floor of their plants, this government has their back," said Trudeau.
He adds Canadian counter-measures will remain in effect until the "unfair" U.S. tariffs on steel and aluminum are removed.

 
spilledthebeer
+1
#413
Quote: Originally Posted by pgs View Post

You can trade whatever commodity you want with who ever you want , whydoyouexpect our government to do your work for you?




================================================== ================================================== ====


POOR STUPID LIE-berals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


For over one hundred years- a succession of Cdn LIE-beral govts has offered up huge cash grants to any company that will set up shop here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


As example- we have only to look at spring 2018 when - in the dying days of the Wynne-bag Ontari-owe LIE-beral govt- Hond C. in Alliston Ont was offered over $100 million dollars in provincial grants!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Yes- our LIE-beral govt that wants to make Canada fossil fuel FREE is so muddled they are subsidizing auto companies!!!!!!!!!!!


But LIE-berals IGNORE the reality that a branch plant economy is ONLY ALLOWED to trade in those places permitted by head office- which is located in some foreign land!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



ALL LIE-beral policy is FAILING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And their economic policy is an especially BIG MESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
MHz
#414
Quote: Originally Posted by White_Unifier View Post

Debt-financed growth is unsustainable in the long run,.

It is the only option available. When a war comes along the nations goes deeper into debt. I\f that is the whole idea we could have an internal economic boom that would be equal to fight a big war. Why would the bankers hate that, they get their pound of flesh and no mass graves are needed.

Stick the orphans and the retired people together and let them fight it out. What comes out is a politician.
 
Curious Cdn
Conservative
#415
Quote: Originally Posted by Twin_Moose View Post

Hahaha Offered the Canadian dairy for a better deal
Opening dairy market to U.S. was biggest concession in trade talks , Freeland says

You like that, do you?

.... your country forced to give up concessions?

You love your country that much, eh?
 
MHz
#416
Do our farmers stay with our old system (not)or do they also have access to US goodies for cows?
 
Twin_Moose
Conservative
#417
Quote: Originally Posted by Curious Cdn View Post

You like that, do you?
.... your country forced to give up concessions?
You love your country that much, eh?

Not at all, she said that she offered more access to Canada for dairy to get a better deal, she is trying to spin it as a win.
 
Hoid
#418
laughs about dairy problems - cries about oil problems.

typical westerner
 
spilledthebeer
+1
#419
Quote: Originally Posted by Hoid View Post

laughs about dairy problems - cries about oil problems.

typical westerner


================================================== ================================================== ====


And POOR PITIFUL HOID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Clinging so desperately to his shattered LIE-beral illusions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Cdn farmers LOST some market share under the new NAFTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


AND ALL the Yankee tariffs remain in place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


THE ONLY THING Our idiot Boy has "won" is the right to go on wrecking Cdn national security and our financial future!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Just as international bankers watched our 2018 Ontari-owe election with great interest- so to will they be watching our 2019 federal election!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And just as bankers were prepared to hit Ontari-owe with new fees and penalties if we re-elected Wynne-bag LIE-berals- so to will bankers hit Canada with new fees and penalties if we are stupid enough to re-elect Our idiot Boy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


But there IS HOPE FOR CANADA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I have been saying all along that our fate is in the hands of the silent majority that normally does not bother voting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


But in the Yankee mid terms- there was a RECORD VOTER TURN OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Who wants to bet that Cdn voters are just as pissed as their Yankee neighbours and there will be a record Cdn turn out in 2019!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


THE ABSOLUTE BEST Our idiot Boy can hope for in 2019 is to end up leading a short lived minority govt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And then Our idiot Boy WILL BE GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Twin_Moose
Conservative
#420
U.S. lawmakers oppose USMCA's gender clause
 

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