Cut Israel Off

Zzarchov
#121
That is also a possibility. But Isolationism rarely turns out well, for practical intents one needs to meddle every now and again (whether right or wrong, others are doing it and they don't agree with your cultural morals to begin with)
 
jimshort19
#122
The Arab peace proposal (2002) was met by Isreal with openness, but on the unreasonable term that the Palestinians be consulted. This Israel-Palestinian chit chat was difficult while the Palestinians were murdering Israeli citizens. But Hexbolla then decided the timing was good for an Israeli civilian massacre!

While in English language media, the Palastinoian Authority condemned the attack saying "The leadership strongly denounces Netanya operation against Israeli civilians and decides to prosecute those involved or responsible," in Arabic it glorified it.

This was misinterpreted by the Israelis as entirely unfriendly. They stopped to think. The Isaelis remembered how they got the land and why they kept the land, as they buried their dead. And they thought about the safety of their own people. And they said, "Naw."

I have no rational choice but to agree. Five years have passed. More Israelis have been killed. The Palistinian Authority is criminally insane. The U.S may fail to force upon Iraqis their freedom, but the Israelis are a sucess largely on their own account. When was the last time an Israeli blew up Americans? Why did Bush not offer land for peace to Al Qaida when the World Trade Centre was hit?
 
gopher
No Party Affiliation
+1
#123
``The Zionist State of Israel has been an evil manevolent force which has brought misery to millions of people. Yet our news spins this state as some sort of innocent victim.``


Precisely why Einstein said ''Zionism = Fascism''.

{op cit}
 
jimshort19
#124
Zzarchov, "There are far easier to fix hotspots in the world, which are far worse and could be fixed with a fraction of the resources dedicated to fixing Israel and Palestines problems for them."

Given that a super-fractional portion of resources is admitted to have been devoted to a fractional problem and come to little or nothing, how then can we suppose that anything can ever be fixed? Our resources seem ineffectual.

The rank hatred of the Jews is preserved in part by the notion that the Israelis are vulnerable, outnumbered, and can be wiped out sooner or later. Anti-semetic and anti-American maleducation breeds a new generation of Arab belligerents while talk of peace goes on, and on and on, amidst the murder.

Like a billion monkeys on a billion typewriters we may eventually write peace in the Middle East, but it will be in large part by luck.
 
lone wolf
Free Thinker
#125
Quote: Originally Posted by iARTthere4iam View Post

Which hotspots should we try to fix that wouldn't immediately be denounced by our own lefties as imperialism. Mabey we should just stay home and let others find their own solutions. Whether they find a solution ever or suffer through their own turmoil to find home grown solutions is up to them. Just a thought.

First off, you lose the back-or-white, left or right, innie versus outie thought patterns and stop dismissing people who don't think the same thoughts as you. Try listening because that "stupid" idea just might be the most workable one. You can't make an attempt to fix a world situation when you're blinded by labels at home. We're a lot more alike than we're comfortable in acknowledging and there are tinfoil hats on both extremes. When the extremists drive the bus, it falls off the cliff and then the cliff is at fault.

Woof!
 
jimshort19
#126
Woofie, "First off, you lose the back-or-white, left or right, innie versus outie thought patterns and stop dismissing people who don't think the same thoughts as you."

Isn't that so, but in this forum the left tin hats are dominant just as surely as the inner whities out the number outer blackies. The anti-American, anti-semite, anti-war, anti-capitalist, anti-god, anti-everything crowd promotes a pefectly clear proposal - absolutely nothing.

That said, and in a kind way, the labels left and right are virtually meaningless except as a steriotype label for the worst of each, the worst of the left as shown above, and the worst of the right being Josef Stalin, whose communist party was labeled right wing by the media after the fall of the Berlin wall.
 
gopher
No Party Affiliation
#127
Stalin a right winger?

Well, considering how the Republican party was his biggest supporter, I am not too surprised that someone views him that way.


 
jimshort19
#128
The media, taking their lead from who knows where, took the liberty of using a meaning of left and right based on who is the entrenched conservative establishment used to calling the shots, and who is on the outside, dissenting.

The commies were thus characterized as 'right' and the democracy/capitalist movement as 'left'.

Hitler used leftist propaganda to promote the National Socialist Workers Party, but he was no commie. Stalin used socialist propaganda to excuse a centralized capitalist system where he had control of the entire Soviet Empire, but he was a commie.

Go figure are real commies left or right and when? Does this oversimplified paradym not fail to tar prime examples as we would like to tar them?
 
lone wolf
Free Thinker
#129
Quote: Originally Posted by jimshort19 View Post

The media, taking their lead from who knows where, took the liberty of using a meaning of left and right based on who is the entrenched conservative establishment used to calling the shots, and who is on the outside, dissenting.

The commies were thus characterized as 'right' and the democracy/capitalist movement as 'left'.

Hitler used leftist propaganda to promote the National Socialist Workers Party, but he was no commie. Stalin used socialist propaganda to excuse a centralized capitalist system where he had control of the entire Soviet Empire, but he was a commie.

Go figure are real commies left or right and when? Does this oversimplified paradym not fail to tar prime examples as we would like to tar them?

Hitler? Left? His brownshirts were patterned on Ford's "service department" and his anti-Jewish policies (including a large segment of Mein Kampf) were pure Henry Ford.

http://www.reformation.org/henry-ford.html

Woof!
 
Zzarchov
#130
The brownshirts also were lured into the party with Communist ideology (as a motivation not an organizational style).

Thats why when Hitler gained more stable powerbase he had them killed off in the night of long knives, and the Brownshirts never regained standing or influence (their leaders all killed) and the Blackshirts took over.
 
earth_as_one
#131
Quote: Originally Posted by jimshort19 View Post

Zzarchov, "There are far easier to fix hotspots in the world, which are far worse and could be fixed with a fraction of the resources dedicated to fixing Israel and Palestines problems for them."

Given that a super-fractional portion of resources is admitted to have been devoted to a fractional problem and come to little or nothing, how then can we suppose that anything can ever be fixed? Our resources seem ineffectual.

The rank hatred of the Jews is preserved in part by the notion that the Israelis are vulnerable, outnumbered, and can be wiped out sooner or later. Anti-semetic and anti-American maleducation breeds a new generation of Arab belligerents while talk of peace goes on, and on and on, amidst the murder.

Like a billion monkeys on a billion typewriters we may eventually write peace in the Middle East, but it will be in large part by luck.

Sure anti-Semitism exists. But not all who oppose what Israel does or the continued suffering of millions of Israel's victims are anti-Semitic.

I oppose torture, ethnic cleansing and collective punishment. The non-citizens we call Palestinians suffer all these things.

Israel has continued to deny the people they displaced to create a pure "Jewish" state their fundamental human rights, freedom and justice for more than 60 years.

Many of these people without rights have been displaced by Israel multiple times. Millions of them live in abject poverty under seige-like conditions.

One reason I criticize Israel is for the benefit of Israelis. The current path leads to Israel's destruction. One state I can think of that did what Israel does came to a very bad end in 1944.

Consider that after Israel has succeeded in enclosing millions of non-citizens behind walls with armed guards and kill zones, the state will turn its attention to the "Arab Israeli Problem". Inevitably Israel will transfer this demographic threat to Israel's Jewishness to the surrounding concentration camps, finally completing 60 years of ethnic cleansing and achieving an ethnically pure state.

1.2 billion angry Arabs and Muslims nearby will increasingly fund and arm those willing to fight this hostile state imposed on them by the UN in 1946. Israel cannot stop a growing tsunami of militants armed with modern man-portable munitions which can knock down walls, take out tanks and shoot down low flying aircraft... Cheap fire and forget munitions requiring a few minutes instruction can take out military systems worth millions manned by highly trained military personnel. Portable rockets will continue to improve to the point where every Israeli city will be within range...

Here is a snapshot of Israel by Amnesty International:
http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/Reg...ed-Territories
 
Zzarchov
#132
But the worst thing one fighting an industrial nation (especially when intent on ethnic cleansing and genocide) can do is start to win.

Israel spends a million dollar on a weapon system because its trying to limit collateral damage. If It spent money fighting the same kind of total war, millions could die every moment to carpet bombing, gas, plague and atomic weaponry.

The worst thing one can do versus a modern nation is start to win in a way that leaves no hope but desperation.
 
dancing-loon
#133
Hi, Mikey,
you said on the first page the following:
Quote:

Perhaps it's being spent on their far-reaching aid programs, we've all watched as Israeli cargo transports bring food to devastated populations around the world haven't we?

Maybe it's being spent on supporting troops in Afghanistan or Iraq, where the "coalition of the willing" is prosecuting a war on terrorism.(translated....the enemies of Israel)....

Maybe they're spending it on a space program and any day now a huge chunk of the International space station will be walled off in preperation for the arival of the newest Israeli astronauts....

I think they are spending it on pipe lines!
Check out this link: http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/249

I think they are also spending it on "Creative Destruction"!
 
Zzarchov
#134
Or they are spending it supporting the Palestinians.

Considering despite no longer occupying Gaza, and being under bombardment, they are still supplying 70% of the regions power FOR FREE.
 
dancing-loon
#135
Aaah, Mr. Zzarchov....
are you perhaps suggesting they, the Israelites, grow energy in their backyards?
Oops, that could have a double meaning, couldn't it??? Could Iraq be considered "backyard"?
Let's see, what we shall find!

Did you know that by law the US guarantees Israel's oil supply - no matter what?

This Memorandum of Understanding is quietly renewed every five years. It commits U.S. taxpayers to maintain a strategic U.S. reserve for Israel, equivalent to $3 billion in 2002 dollars.

Outch! There are those poor taxpayers ... again!!!
Well, I heard they got excempted now, because "someone" laid a pipe from Iraq's oil terminal directly over to Israel's backyard.
Sooo, it is only right that they should give some of it to the remaining Palestinians in exchange for more and more land! Don't you think, Zzarkov?

http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/4504
 
Pangloss
#136
Something that I've noticed in these Middle East threads:

Nobody ever changes their minds about anything!

It's like the arguments from the other side only exist for the purpose of being torn apart - a deeply dishonest position to take.

I'll eat huge slices of humble pie if someone can quote a post where somebody admitted to changing their mind on something substantive because of facts presented in any of these threads.

I thought I could learn something about the Middle East by reading these threads, but instead all I've seen is entrenchment.

Is this about dick size, folks? Is it about being an internet tough guy? Is admitting that the other side has a point somehow demeaning, or that you were wrong about something a fatal flaw?

Jeebus, but this bellicose gainsaying is pointless.

Pangloss
 
dancing-loon
#137
Hi, lovely Pangloss;
if you want to learn read the given links, listen to BOTH sides. This is just a discussion board for entertainment, because our various opinions go nowhere! And if we all agreed to what the other is saying, then we would be by-passing reality as well as a great deal of fun!
Right, guys?
 
Zzarchov
#138
Quote: Originally Posted by Pangloss View Post

Something that I've noticed in these Middle East threads:

Nobody ever changes their minds about anything!

It's like the arguments from the other side only exist for the purpose of being torn apart - a deeply dishonest position to take.

I'll eat huge slices of humble pie if someone can quote a post where somebody admitted to changing their mind on something substantive because of facts presented in any of these threads.

I thought I could learn something about the Middle East by reading these threads, but instead all I've seen is entrenchment.

Is this about dick size, folks? Is it about being an internet tough guy? Is admitting that the other side has a point somehow demeaning, or that you were wrong about something a fatal flaw?

Jeebus, but this bellicose gainsaying is pointless.

Pangloss

Not at all, occasionally minor points of contention are agreed upon and views are changed subtley. Often what happens is more aspects of the same issue are discovered and taught to people, who with their moral views on right and wrong take the same stance on these new issues.

The main problem on these threads if you get a few more moderate people on opposing sides who discuss minor issues.

Then about 40 bajillion (an exageration) nutballs from either side jump in with outrageous claims (like chestnuts are lazy due to a zionist plot and Muslim extremists invented the question mark to foster moral ambiguity to the Israeli cause), which the majority of the thread devolves into trying to bother disputing and anything meaningful is drowned out.

I would really like it if you could have semi-private threads. To join the thread you have to be invited by someone else already in the thread to post.
 
Dixie Cup
Conservative
#139
Unfortunately, even if Isreal were to cede the West Bank, nothing would change. They've ceded land for peace before and where did that get them? No where. The Palestinians need to fight for better leadership, forget about Isreal and concentrate on bettering their own lives. Don't bother Isreal and Isreal will leave them alone. Simple!!

JMO
 
Colpy
Conservative
#140
Quote: Originally Posted by Dixie Cup View Post

Unfortunately, even if Isreal were to cede the West Bank, nothing would change. They've ceded land for peace before and where did that get them? No where. The Palestinians need to fight for better leadership, forget about Isreal and concentrate on bettering their own lives. Don't bother Isreal and Isreal will leave them alone. Simple!!

JMO

Obviously.

They did a unilateral withdrawal from Gaza.......forcibly taking their settlers with them. You see what happened there......

They had planned to follow with a withdrawal from the West Bank.......but the Gaza situation quickly turned into such a fiasco.......Israel is left without choices.
 
MHz
#141
Quote: Originally Posted by Colpy View Post

You see what happened there......

They had planned to follow with a withdrawal from the West Bank.......but the Gaza situation quickly turned into such a fiasco.......Israel is left without choices.

This is the best choice they could come up with??

Occupation_101.avi
 
ironsides
No Party Affiliation
#142
What, this was never mentioned.

Palestinian human rights groups pressed Hamas on Monday to allow an independent investigation into whether it committed war crimes while fighting Israel last winter. The 11 Palestinian groups said an internal inquiry was needed to maintain the credibility of Palestinians who want to see Israel punished for its actions during the war. Hamas is unlikely to agree to an independent inquiry.

World Briefing - Middle East - Gaza - Palestinians Push Hamas for Inquiry Over War Crimes Against Israel - NYTimes.com
 
MHz
#143
I didn't realize war-crime investigations needed the permission of the one being investigated.
 
darkbeaver
Republican
#144
War crimes against Israel, that's terrible. The New York Times, preferred by most budgies and parrots, also handy for dogs.
 
ironsides
No Party Affiliation
#145
Quote: Originally Posted by MHz View Post

I didn't realize war-crime investigations needed the permission of the one being investigated.

Guess they do in Hamas controlled area's if one wants to live.
 
Gilgamesh
#146
Quote: Originally Posted by Jersay View Post

Very very true! If Hamas and the others wanted to attack America because they 'truly' hate Americans then they would have done it by now because they have better connections in the States then Al Qaeda has because of the Palestinian international community. This article states the true fact because for the past few weeks Abbas has wanted the peace talks to be substantive so that Hamas losses power in Gaza. But Olmert, has proven that first he didn't want substantive negotiations and now saying peace talks might not even happen at all.

Let us invade Israel and make it a true democracy for the Palestinians and the Israeli Arabs that are treated as second-class citizens and destroy the only autocratic regime in the Middle East that has WMD.

Dementia has hit you very hard.

BTW your knowledge of history & politics is laughable and highlights your Grade 4 education beautifully.
 
darkbeaver
Republican
#147
Quote: Originally Posted by gopher View Post

``The Zionist State of Israel has been an evil manevolent force which has brought misery to millions of people. Yet our news spins this state as some sort of innocent victim.``


Precisely why Einstein said ''Zionism = Fascism''.

{op cit}


Einstien was cool, had an approximate idea of configuration and position butt the big really big bank frum.n nothing into everything this presents problems. Afterall he was an idiot.
 
darkbeaver
Republican
#148
Quote: Originally Posted by Colpy View Post

The usual bull**** from the left.

The only thing I would agree with in the entire post is the declaration that the palestinians want peace. That the average Palestinian would like to live in peace is without question, as would the average Israeli.......unfortunately peace programs are usually derailed by extremists on both sides......

As for the refugee thing, people consistently forget 800,000 Jews were expelled from Arab countries after the 1948 war.......where are the demands they be compensated, allowed to return to their seized property, where are the calls for justice for them?


Why are they assimilated into Israel and at peace, while 50 years down the road the Arab nations have done NOTHING to aid their Palestinian brothers.......they prefer them as they are, a propaganda club to beat Israel with.


Only hell awaits the Israel faction in perpetuity you will get there, just keep it up.

 
Gilgamesh
#149
Quote: Originally Posted by JBeee View Post

November 17, 2007
by Charley Reese I t is long past time for American politicians to quit carrying water for the state of Israel and its powerful U.S. lobby. Congress' craven obedience to the lobby is a disgrace.

America's strategic interests in the Middle East lie with the Arab countries. Israel is a strategic and economic liability. The U.S. government's slavish support of Israel brands us as a hypocrite and is responsible for most of the hostility toward the U.S.

Americans have been brainwashed into believing that it's the Arabs, and the Palestinians in particular, who don't want peace. That is a big lie. The Palestinians made an enormous concession when they agreed to settle for a state on 18 percent of Palestine. Saudi Arabia proposed several years ago a peace plan in which all of the Arab countries would recognize Israel in exchange for Israeli withdrawal from the occupied territories. The Israelis rejected it out of hand, just as they reject Arab efforts to have the Middle East a nuclear-free zone.

Israel's goal is and always has been to take all of Palestine and to get rid of the Palestinians. The Israelis employed ethnic cleansing in 1948 and again in 1967 to make hundreds of thousands of Palestinians refugees. For 40 years, the Israelis have refused to give back the Palestinian and Syrian lands they seized in war. They have blatantly violated international law by building settlements on occupied land, and by violating the airspace of other sovereign countries.

Palestinians are the victims, not the villains, in this case. The Israelis make their lives miserable in the hope they will give up and leave. At the same time, the Israelis, in cahoots with the American government, maintain a charade of proposed peace talks. They of course never come to fruition. The Israeli government is not about to allow the Palestinians to have a viable state. If they give the Palestinians anything, it will be a patchwork of enclaves completely surrounded and controlled by Israel. Having created 700,000 Palestinian refugees, the Israelis have from the beginning refused to allow them to return to their homes, farms and businesses, all of which Israel confiscated on the specious grounds that they were "abandoned property."

Without U.S. aid, which now is conservatively estimated to total $108 billion (think of the infrastructure and schools that amount could build in the U.S.), and without the U.S. wielding its veto every time the United Nations tries to act, none of this would be possible.

It is not just the Muslim world that hates our pro-Israel foreign policy, for sound reasons that it is unjust and cruel. Europeans and others around the world are contemptuous of America's slavelike obedience to a small foreign power. It has gotten to the point that to be seen as an ally of the United States is viewed negatively.

The Arab and Muslim people, with the exception of al-Qaeda, don't hate America or Americans. It is the pro-Israel foreign policy and, of course, our invasions of two Muslim countries that they hate. Virtually all of the anti-Arab and anti-Muslim propaganda generated in this country has its source in the Israeli lobby and in Israel itself.

Thanks to the unconstitutional largess of the cowardly Congress, Israel is a rich country and one of the world's leading military powers. It doesn't need American aid. It is time to quit dancing to the tune of a lobby with dual loyalties and to pursue America's interests.

Americans are being betrayed by their own politicians, and it's time to treat those scoundrels with the contempt they deserve.

An amazingly unique post consisting completely of lies, nonsense, and inaccuracies.

Congratulations! You are the biggest POS on this site.

Care for a sequel? ROFLMAO
 

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