Canadians want better health care without more taxes: poll


JLM
#1

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/Can...110/story.html

I guess 61% of us want something for nothing. It doesn't require rocket science to figure out that won't work.
 
wulfie68
#2
I'm surprised its that low...

... and with the constant tirades from the medical professionals' lobby-groups its not really surprising that the public is taking their stance that there is money to be made in correcting inefficiencies in the system. Its classic propaganda technique, that we saw in the Bush campaign to garner domestic support prior to invading Iraq (the whole "Saddam helped stage 9/11") or the Canadian Left's constant "the CPC/Reform/Alliance have a hidden agenda" statements. I'm not saying that there aren't inefficiencies in our health care system that can be eliminated and save some money, but I don't think they are as many as the doctors and nurses claim.
 
DurkaDurka
#3
I'm certainly not prepared to pay more for something I rarely use. Not not mention the fact that in Ontario, we already pay a Health Care fee yearly, deducted straight off my pay check.

There are other solutions to the problems besides raising taxes. Allowing more private sector options is one idea, cutbacks in non-essential procedures too, or reallocation of tax revenue into health care.
 
karrie
+1
#4  Top Rated Post
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

Canadians want better health care without more taxes: poll

I guess 61% of us want something for nothing. It doesn't require rocket science to figure out that won't work.

Or, 61% of us want to see things better managed.
 
The Old Medic
+1
#5
Yes indeed, cut back on "non-essential" procedures.

My paternal grandmother died as a direct result of delaying a "non-essential" surgery. She had an abdominal hernia, which was not considered to be life threatening, so they put her on the waiting list. Her intestine pushed through the hole (a hernia is a weakness or hole in the muscles of an area). The muscles then tightened up around the intestines, shutting off the blood flow.

The result was that she developed gangrene, and died from it. All because someone decided that hernia's were not all that important in the greater scheme of things.

That's the problem when government controls medical care. Someone that has no medical training can prevent others from receiving medical care.

Because of what happened to my grandmother, I will fight against the Obama Health Care laws, and anything else that puts the government in charge of MY health care.
 
JLM
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by karrie View Post

Or, 61% of us want to see things better managed.

That too but it would mean laying off scads of administrators, then you will hear even more screaming. I think there needs to be a combination of both. Health care is still pretty cheap. like $108 a month for a family. Take your family for supper in a restaurant and you'll pay that or more. My health is my most important asset and I'm willing to pay accordingly to maintain it.
 
karrie
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by The Old Medic View Post

Because of what happened to my grandmother, I will fight against the Obama Health Care laws, and anything else that puts the government in charge of MY health care.

Unless you're one of a really few people paying directly out of pocket you still likely have someone with no medical training in charge of your health care. insurance is insurance.
 
VanIsle
#8
I don't know what I named the thread but I'm sure I put something on here just a brief time ago where the doctors have stated they have a plan for things to be managed better and where they too feel the system is being highly mis-managed. Maybe I just added it to someone else's or maybe it's just BC doctors.
 
karrie
#9
it's not just BC doctors VanIsle. I know plenty of docs and nurses whose stories about mismanagement would make your hair curl.
 
JLM
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by VanIsle View Post

I don't know what I named the thread but I'm sure I put something on here just a brief time ago where the doctors have stated they have a plan for things to be managed better and where they too feel the system is being highly mis-managed. Maybe I just added it to someone else's or maybe it's just BC doctors.

Doctors tend to do that. It's called being protective. There was a list published recently showing B.C. doctors salaries last year. I checked out some doctors that I know and a salary between $300 and $400 thousand seems to be the norm and that is for G.P.s. I think all their operating expenses come out of that, so I'm not sure it's out of line, but on the other hand they are not starving. I think the main thing we have to face is we have to do more at looking after our own health.
 
VanIsle
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by The Old Medic View Post

Yes indeed, cut back on "non-essential" procedures.

My paternal grandmother died as a direct result of delaying a "non-essential" surgery. She had an abdominal hernia, which was not considered to be life threatening, so they put her on the waiting list. Her intestine pushed through the hole (a hernia is a weakness or hole in the muscles of an area). The muscles then tightened up around the intestines, shutting off the blood flow.

The result was that she developed gangrene, and died from it. All because someone decided that hernia's were not all that important in the greater scheme of things.

That's the problem when government controls medical care. Someone that has no medical training can prevent others from receiving medical care.

Because of what happened to my grandmother, I will fight against the Obama Health Care laws, and anything else that puts the government in charge of MY health care.

I'm sure they will give YOU the personal option of paying through the nose and going to a private clinic.
 
DurkaDurka
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

That too but it would mean laying off scads of administrators, then you will hear even more screaming. I think there needs to be a combination of both. Health care is still pretty cheap. like $108 a month for a family. Take your family for supper in a restaurant and you'll pay that or more. My health is my most important asset and I'm willing to pay accordingly to maintain it.

You already pay for it though, how much is enough?
 
TenPenny
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

Doctors tend to do that. It's called being protective. There was a list published recently showing B.C. doctors salaries last year. I checked out some doctors that I know and a salary between $300 and $400 thousand seems to be the norm and that is for G.P.s. I think all their operating expenses come out of that, so I'm not sure it's out of line, but on the other hand they are not starving. I think the main thing we have to face is we have to do more at looking after our own health.

For GP's, typically 1/2 of the income goes to office expenses and staff, right off the top.
 
VanIsle
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by karrie View Post

it's not just BC doctors VanIsle. I know plenty of docs and nurses whose stories about mismanagement would make your hair curl.

I fully believe you. I just meant that the article I posted (read) may have been put out there by doctors in BC but it did say a group of doctors which could have meant doctors from anywhere.

Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

Doctors tend to do that. It's called being protective. There was a list published recently showing B.C. doctors salaries last year. I checked out some doctors that I know and a salary between $300 and $400 thousand seems to be the norm and that is for G.P.s. I think all their operating expenses come out of that, so I'm not sure it's out of line, but on the other hand they are not starving. I think the main thing we have to face is we have to do more at looking after our own health.

Certainly their expenses come right off the top. The clinic I go to houses a lot more doctors then it does staff. There are between 1 and 2 people at the front desk. If you don't already know where your doctor is in the building, they tell you which area to go to. I know where to go. When I get to the area where my doctor is, there is one person behind a glassed off window. I tell her who I am and who I am there to see. She says - take a seat. I see her take my typed sheet and place it on one of the office doors my doctor uses. She doesn't seem to do too much more than that. Sometimes someone who works in the bldg. comes to speak to her and sometimes the phone rings but not often. New appts. are booked at the entry to the bldg which houses a pharmacy, a blood testing site, some pyschologists and even a physio-therapist. It's a two story bldg. and a very busy place but in every case, staff is at a minimum. Most of the doctors there also work in a clinic downtown. It's a horrible old bldg that gives me the creeps when I enter it. It's bigger then the clinic I usually attend which is closer to my home by far but it's very very old and dark and dingy looking. There is always at least 2 staff members behind their front counter and sometimes 3. They too send you to an "area". Finding it is something else! Not enough staff and not enough directions. The bldg. has corridors everywhere. One receptionist handles each area and you better be sure to check that you are in the right one! I feel like I am in an underground bldg. without windows. I had to go there for my wrist surgery but other than that, I avoid it entirely. They don't spend money on extra staff and the old bldg. they work out of had to have paid for itself about 25 yrs. ago. I realize there are more expenses then that but for the most part, do they have anymore expenses than any other business?

Quote: Originally Posted by TenPenny View Post

For GP's, typically 1/2 of the income goes to office expenses and staff, right off the top.

Did you know that many of them send their work out to be worked on by some person who works from home? For all you know, your next door neighbour could be typing up your file and know all there is to know about you medically speaking. My son's next door neighbour is one of those people.
 
Walter
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by karrie View Post

Or, 61% of us want to see things better managed.


As long as the guvmnt is in charge it won't be better managed.
 
TenPenny
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by VanIsle View Post

Did you know that many of them send their work out to be worked on by some person who works from home? For all you know, your next door neighbour could be typing up your file and know all there is to know about you medically speaking. My son's next door neighbour is one of those people.

Typing up my file? My file at my GP's office is handwritten notes. Of the 15 or 20 GPs that I know personally, none of them use electronic files. Not a single one. Even the ones who have spouses in the IT industry use handwritten charts.

If your son's next door neighbor ever says one word about the medical information they are handling to anyone other than their employer, they are committing a crime, and could be charged.
 
Bar Sinister
#17
I suspect the system could be run more cheaply if less of the health care system was privatized. There are far too many for profit businesses supplying their services to the health care system, all at the taxpayer's expense.

What needs to be done is for the various governments to look at these private health care providers and see if they really do save the system money, which is a claim that most of them make. Those that do not should be replaced with government-run services.
 
VanIsle
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by TenPenny View Post

Typing up my file? My file at my GP's office is handwritten notes. Of the 15 or 20 GPs that I know personally, none of them use electronic files. Not a single one. Even the ones who have spouses in the IT industry use handwritten charts.

If your son's next door neighbor ever says one word about the medical information they are handling to anyone other than their employer, they are committing a crime, and could be charged.

I'm sure she would never say a word. She's a very honest person but because she is, doesn't mean everyone is. I haven't been to a doctor in years that used hand written notes other than jotting down a few things while I sit in his office. Every doctor in the clinic I go to has a computer sitting right on their desk. Even prescriptions are printed off electronically and then signed. My doctor does not open a paper file up when I go to see him, he opens his electronic file on me. If I ask him about something from a few months back, he scrolls through my file just like we would scroll through a thread here. It might appear they use hand written charts but I bet if you ask, all your "stuff" is typed up and stored via computer.
 
JLM
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by karrie View Post

it's not just BC doctors VanIsle. I know plenty of docs and nurses whose stories about mismanagement would make your hair curl.

AFter a life time in the workforce, I've come to the conclusion the vast majority of people (myself included) are bitchers at times. Doctors and nurses are no different (maybe they are worse because some of them were born with a silver spoon in their mouths) Probably 1% of bitching is about something that is a threat to life or limb. Maybe if the other 99% quit crying "wolf", then the serious stuff could be dealt with a whole lot faster and more economically because good money wouldn't be spent to sort out the whining. We are the most prosperous society in one of the richest countries in the world, suck it up. sometimes you are going to have to sit in the waiting room at E.R. suffering with pain for an hour.

Quote: Originally Posted by VanIsle View Post

I'm sure she would never say a word. She's a very honest person but because she is, doesn't mean everyone is. I haven't been to a doctor in years that used hand written notes other than jotting down a few things while I sit in his office. Every doctor in the clinic I go to has a computer sitting right on their desk. Even prescriptions are printed off electronically and then signed. My doctor does not open a paper file up when I go to see him, he opens his electronic file on me. If I ask him about something from a few months back, he scrolls through my file just like we would scroll through a thread here. It might appear they use hand written charts but I bet if you ask, all your "stuff" is typed up and stored via computer.

Same with my new doc in Vernon. Just as well- doctor's handwriting is atrocious by nature.
 
Tonington
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

Canadians want better health care without more taxes: poll

I guess 61% of us want something for nothing. It doesn't require rocket science to figure out that won't work.

How do you figure that? The opening paragraph says Canadians want to identify inefficiencies. Becoming more efficient is not something for nothing.

Quote: Originally Posted by The Old Medic View Post

That's the problem when government controls medical care. Someone that has no medical training can prevent others from receiving medical care. \

That's not unique to single payer government funded health care. There's plenty of examples out there of insurance adjusters doing the same thing. And they are not trained medically.
 
YukonJack
#21
I have absolutely no complaints about the health care I receive in Manitoba.

Might turn me into a New Democrat.
 
JLM
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by YukonJack View Post

I have absolutely no complaints about the health care I receive in Manitoba.

Might turn me into a New Democrat.

I quite honestly DON'T have a lot to complain about the treatment I get in B.C. People have to remember that doctors aren't magicians. Sure they can identify a problem and possibly prescribe a remedy or something to alleviate it, but 95% of our health problems are what we bring on ourselves, so if after the doctor prescribes you don't change your behaviour, the same problem is very likely going to recur. Health care for the wife and I costs somewhere under $100 a month. Cheap, cheap, cheap for maintaining the most important possession you have.

Quote: Originally Posted by YukonJack View Post

I have absolutely no complaints about the health care I receive in Manitoba.

Might turn me into a New Democrat.

Yeah, and the moon might be made of green cheese.
 
YukonJack
#23
A conservative walks into a bar, on crutches. Orders a drink. Then sees a person in the corner and says to the bartender: :"Is that Jesus there? Give Him a drink on me".

Later a liberal, in a wheel chair, comes into the same bar, spots the same person and instructs the bartender to give Him a free drink on him.

Then a NDP'er, in a walker, comes and does the same.

In a while Jesus gets up, walks over to the conservative, lays a hand upon him and says: "For your good deed you are cured" and the conservative guy walks away without crutches.

Jesus, then goes over to the liberal, lays a hand over him and cures him.

Jesus then walks over to the NDP'er and the NDP'er screams: "Don't touch me!!!!! I am on disability!!!!!"
 
Machjo
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by JLM View Post

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/Can...110/story.html

I guess 61% of us want something for nothing. It doesn't require rocket science to figure out that won't work.

Bunch of idiots. If you want to promote a tax increase to improve Medicare, or otherwise accept the reduced availability of Medicare, fair enough: I can respect both positions. But if you think you can get better Medicare without a tax increase can I have some of whatever it is you're smoking sir.

And no JLM, I'm not referring to you but to the 61% of Canadians.

Quote: Originally Posted by DurkaDurka View Post

I'm certainly not prepared to pay more for something I rarely use. Not not mention the fact that in Ontario, we already pay a Health Care fee yearly, deducted straight off my pay check.

There are other solutions to the problems besides raising taxes. Allowing more private sector options is one idea, cutbacks in non-essential procedures too, or reallocation of tax revenue into health care.

I agree with you. I take care of my health and so would like to see more private involvement in the system. That said, if the left does manage to increase Medicare spending, then I'd hope the right, while continuing to fight to reduce Medicare spending, will be at least responsible enough to increase taxes until it manages to reduce Medicare spending. And I'd hope any tax increase be as user-pay as possible (e.g. tobacco and alcohol, junk food, etc.).
 
JLM
#25
[QUOTE=Machjo;1320218]Bunch of idiots. If you want to promote a tax increase to improve Medicare, or otherwise accept the reduced availability of Medicare, fair enough: I can respect both positions. But if you think you can get better Medicare without a tax increase can I have some of whatever it is you're smoking sir.

And no JLM, I'm not referring to you but to the 61% of Canadians.



QUOTE]

Right on, Machjo.
 
The Old Medic
#26
People will never give up believing in magic.

They actually believe that government can provide services more cheaply than private industry can, and that whatever the government provides should not have any impact on their finances.

TYhen there are the ones that want to target just what they see as the bad guys. Tax tobacco, alcohol, etc. more and more and more. What they don't realize is that over 80% of the cost of alcohol today is taxes, approximately 90% of the cost of tobacco products is taxes, etc. Every time the government does another significant increase in the taxes of those things, they drive more people into either not using them, or purchasing from illicit sources. The governments revenue actually declines in most cases.

As to "junk food". One persons "junk food" is anothers sustanence. What right do you, or the government, have in determining what a person can, or can not choose to eat? It is not governments role to do that.

Sorry, but if you are going to tax for medical care, then that tax should be evenly spread out upon all aspects of the society.

Canada has chosen to only allow the government to control all payment for medical services. That puts the government in total and complete control of medicine. Until the people demand that this be changed, you will see the inequities that currently exist in Canadian healthcare become more and more prevalent. As it stand right now, those in the cities get significantly better and more timely care than those that live in smaller towns or rural areas. This has gotten much worse over the years, and it is a trend that will not change.

Canada is losing medical professionals because they can do much better economically, and they can control their own practices, in other countries.

If Canada wants to change anything, they should look at the German system. There, everyone has health care, but they also have a free market.
 
JLM
#27
[QUOTE=The Old MedicAs to "junk food". One persons "junk food" is anothers sustanence. What right do you, or the government, have in determining what a person can, or can not choose to eat? It is not governments role to do that.

Sorry, but if you are going to tax for medical care, then that tax should be evenly spread out upon all aspects of the society.

.[/QUOTE]

WRONG- If Gov't is to tax people to cover health care the taxes should be proportional to the products/activities that are causing the problems. People who eat right, exercise regularly, use tobacco and booze in moderation shouldn't be subsidizing those whose lifestyle contributes to diabetes, scherosis of the liver, heart disease and emphysema etc.
 
lone wolf
#28
Health care? Doesn't that require doctors?
 
JLM
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolf View Post

Health care? Doesn't that require doctors?

Actually yes- as a last resort to try to patch you up after you've done the damage. There's the occasional case where special circumstance or genetics screws you up, but mostly the human animal brings a lot of it on himself. 300 lbs. on the scales and B.P. of 250/140 doesn't happen overnight.
 
Nuggler
#30
I pay the annual Ontario non-tax tax for health care., and a monthly stipend for my health benefits which we carried into retirement, plus a differential in a drug plan (which has dropped quite a bit since I became an old fart.)

The article reads as if no one pays anything at present.

Also, don't forget you read it in the National Post.

 

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