Quebec shouldn't separate from Canada


Canadian Dragon
#61
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister

Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo

...ethnic relations are no better, or worse, in Canada as anywhere else on the face of this planet.

Nope, can't agree with that one. We're not shooting each other. Yet.

I agree it's a global problem, but I strongly doubt it can be attacked globally. There's no global solution, there are only local solutions, because each situation has local origins. What might work to resolve the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians, for instance, probably won't work in Chechnya, or Darfur, or Indonesia, or East Timor, or Sri Lanka...

Who was it said all politics is local? Whoever it was, he was right.

 
Canadian Dragon
#62
Im in a French Class where we are studying this issue and i have to agree that it would be bad for Quebec to seperate from her homeland of Canada
 
Canadian Dragon
#63
Im in a French Class where we are studying this issue and i have to agree that it would be bad for Quebec to seperate from her homeland of Canada
 
Canadian Dragon
#64
Im in a French Class where we are studying this issue and i have to agree that it would be bad for Quebec to seperate from her homeland of Canada
 
Canadian Dragon
#65
if anyone wants to argue more email me at Halamdijn@aol.com
 
Canadian Dragon
#66
if anyone wants to argue more email me at Halamdijn@aol.com
 
Canadian Dragon
#67
if anyone wants to argue more email me at Halamdijn@aol.com
 
Jay
#68
"Quebec to seperate from her homeland of Canada"


Quebec isn't an invention of Canada.
 
Jay
#69
"Quebec to seperate from her homeland of Canada"


Quebec isn't an invention of Canada.
 
Jay
#70
"Quebec to seperate from her homeland of Canada"


Quebec isn't an invention of Canada.
 
s_lone
#71
As a quebecer with an anglo-franco background, I have to say that while my mind is canadian, my heart truly is Quebecois. Sadly, my Canadian nationalist feeling is quite vague and would be practically inexistant if I hadn't been raised in a bilingual home. Why? Because Quebec culture is more concentrated geographically and can be felt more strongly than the Canadian one. Canada is huge with not so many people. It'll take more time for a truly vibrant national unity to appear. I'm quite split on the subject because I do believe in the future of Canada, but I think it really needs significant reforms. How about becoming the CPU. (Canadian Provinces Union). Let EVERY province "seperate" and really take business into their own hands but WITHOUT destroying what is already holding us together. It would be a bit like kids leaving their parent's home (Ottawa) but staying united by strong and true family ties. I would see this new Canadian Union as a political family in which each member is mature enough to take their own decisions. This wouldn't stop us from being strongly united economically and politically. I'm not saying the hell with Ottawa, but I certainly think Ottawa should not be a place where money is split apart. It should rather be a place where money is put together for common interests. Presently, the provinces are all like children fighting for their share. It's time for every province to grow up and trace their own future. Que chaque province vole de ses propres ailes!

Of course, many would say that we offer better resistance to the US cultural invasion if we stay united in a centralised federation but English Canada isn't giving a very good example as compared to Quebecers. We have our own star system, Quebec television and film industry is rich, diversified and yes, profitable. Of course, Quebecers consume lots of American culture too but at least our own culture is as strong. Could you say the same thing from English Canadian culture? I'm not saying there's no quality English Canadian TV and cinema (lots of outstanding stuff!) Candian culture reflects the intelligence of its people. But the support it gets from common English Canadians is mediocre! At least the musical situation seems better...

I think a VERY decentralised federation would allow a much stronger resistance in the way that micro cultures could gain more support. Perhaps some states in the US would start envying the power our provinces and cause changes down south. BC, for example, could stop wasting money teaching mandatory French in school and start focusing more on embracing Asian culture. How much money has been wasted in keeping this country united when all we would need is an inversion of power. Power should belong first to the provinces.

As for economy, I may be naive but to me it is a no-brainer that Canada is stupidly dependant of American economy. We've got less people to feed and more natural resources so logically, we should be doing a lot better than they are.
 
S-Ranger
#72
Quote: Originally Posted by AXL

Numure said something about the Federal government losing a large portion of their revenue. What about the provincial equalization payments through which Quebec recieves more than any other province. Last year Quebec recieved $4.5 billion which is $3.4 billion less than any other province not to mention that Ontario and Alberta actually had to pay money into that fund. Quebec is also expected to recieve about $10 billion for social services and health care in the next year. Do not even try to tell me that Quebec would not suffer from the loss of that money.

Surprising coming from a Southern Ontarian, particularly from Ottawa. Take the $2 billion "the feds" (Southern Ontario/Southwest Quebec taxpayers) handed out last year to each province as some emergency healthcare injection.

Over half of the population of the Canadas lives in the Windsor-Quebec City corridor (Inner Canada) and it generates up to 70% of federal revenues, depending on the price of commodities in Outer Canada: which includes most of Ontario and Quebec.

What does, oh, say, a flu shot cost? Or whatever around healthcare? Would population possibly be a factor around these things called provinces, when the City of Toronto proper out-populates all four provinces of the Atlantic Canadas -- combined -- and pays out over a billion dollars more in taxes a year, the ones that matter, never to be seen again, than the alleged "richest province in the Canadas," Alberta (not one city with one city hall to try to represent itself with) pays out in taxes, never to be seen again, into things like, oh, the largest expense of the federal government, the federal debt, the second largest expense, the Canada Health Transfer (CHT, formerly CHST with the Canada Social Transfer/CHT mixed in but they were separted for more transparency because Quebec opted out of the CHST; more on that in a bit).

All transfers to provincial govenments are based on population, per capita, provincially. Usually. And there are rules/mathematical formulae around all of them, that Nwfoundland&Labrador and Nova Scotia, due to Alberta in the 1960's doing the same, completely throwing the rules of equalizaton transters out the window.

Do you remember that $2 billion handout "the feds" made as some emergency injection "to the provinces" into healthcare? It amounted to:

$2 billion divided by 137,781 people in PEI = $14,515.79 per person.

Do the same to any of the Atlantic provinces, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Alberta or B.C.. 2,000,000,000. Nine zeroes after the 2. There are 1,000 million dollars in one billion dollars. Or one thousand million anything in one billion anything. Like:

1,234,678,901 is 1 billion, 234 milion, 678 thousand, 901 of whatever. Try StatsCan for population stats but they round up to the nearest hundred. This link has the same numbers but doesn't round anything.

http://www.canadainfolink.ca/charttwo.htm July 1 stats (pr as with StatsCan)

Code:
                                                                                                                               2001        2002        2003
                                                                                                        ONTARIO ...............  11,410,146  12,096,627  12,238,300
                                                                                                        QUEBEC ................   7,237,479   7,443,491   7,487,169
                                                                                                        BRITISH COLUMBIA ......   3,907,738   4,114,981   4,146,580
                                                                                                        ALBERTA ...............   2,974,807   3,114,390   3,153,723
                                                                                                        MANITOBA ..............   1,119,583   1,155,492   1,162,776
                                                                                                        SASKATCHEWAN ..........     978,933     995,490     994,843
                                                                                                        NOVA SCOTIA ...........     908,007     934,392     936,025
                                                                                                        NEW BRUNSWICK .........     729,498     750,183     750,594
                                                                                                        NEWFOUNDLAND & LABRADOR     512,930     519,270     519,570
                                                                                                        PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND ..     135,294     136,998     137,781
                                                                                                        NORTHWEST TERRITORIES .      37,360      41,434      41,872
                                                                                                        YUKON TERRITORY .......      28,674      30,123      31,060
                                                                                                    NUNAVAT TERRITORY .....      26,745      28,740      29,384
                                                                                                
Sorted from highest to lowest populations.

So out of $2 billion, PEI -- just because it's called a province, though I fail to see how a city can be made of 138,000 people let alone a province, and I've live in apartment high-rises with the populaton of Charlettown, a "provincial capital city" no less, and Ottawa-Hull, the Census Metropotian Area (CMA) is the fourth most populous in the country -- gets $14,515.79 per person off a straight $2 billione each per province "deal" from "the feds." Toronto (CMA's all not cities/municiplaities of), Montreal, Vancouver then right back to Southern Ontario with Ottawa-Hull.

What if Quebec got $14,515.79 per person to spend on healthcare as PEI did out of that $2 billion "per province" CRAP the feds handed out to provinces that barely have the populations of the Ottawa-Hull CMA, let alone Southern Ontario?

14,515.79 (dollars, the $2 billion PEI got per capita for its emergency healthcare injection) multiplied by 7,487,169, the July 1 pr population estimate of Quebec's population would amount to $108,682,172,898.51.

That's only about $107 trillion dollars over the entire GDP of the Canadas, over 60% of which is generate by "Ontario and Quebec." So why didn't Quebec get that? Fair is fair, PEI got $14,515.79 per person for healthcare and it's a leech province (pays out 0 in taxes that aren't returned to it and gets more back in handouts on top of that) worth only 0.32% of the GDP of the Canadas -- or 0.32 cents, minus its handouts, is what it's worth on every Canadian dollar. Quebec is worth 21.06 cents on every Canadian dollar, with only Ontario being higher at 40.56 cents (percentage of total GDP). Alberta is only worth 13.85, B.C., 12.02. And as with all of Outer Canada, it depends on the price of comodities because they have no markets to speak of, so no real industry to speak of (it makes more economic sense to process/manufacture where the markets are as opposed to shipping much higher-value goods across the country), so they export raw commodities for the most part. Quebec has a real economy, like Ontario -- due to the south/southwest.

Quebec got only $267.12 per person out of the $2 billion flat that "the feds" handed out to all provinces, without a care in the world about their populations. Or the taxes they generate or what they're worth to the economy of this mess -- outside Inner Canada.

$2 billion to "Ontario" amounted to 2,000,000,000 divided by 12,238,300 or $163.42 per person. What were we supposed to do with that? PEI could have hired a new physician for every 5 people, which isn't needed, so could have built clinics and hospitals. It got real money out of that one, for being worthless and having the population of a few condos.

And if you know anything about the Ontario "provincial" government (just another worthless bunch of what might as well be feds to deal with -- particularly with the 400+ municipalities of the Association of Municipalities of Ontario [AMO] at their throats) over the scraps of our own taxes back, not "transfers" or "funding" that the confederate feds thow at the Onterio feds, who then proceed to leave the important cities in the south high and dry and hand money out to every town, village and hamlet in the Ontarios due to the AMO -- which Toronto dropped out of becuase the Ontario feds with their "new deal for CITIES," namely public transit because neither the Ontario feds nor the confederate feds pay a cent into public transit, not fixing ditches, decided that the AMO would deal with divying up the money from the Ontario and confederate feds, if they ever delivered, to the AMO -- an umbrella group for every town, village and hamlet in the Ontarios, not CITIES and certainly not Toronto.

So Toronto dropped out of the AMO giving the Ontario feds the choice of ignoring the largest municipality in the Canadas let alone Ontario, though there isn't much to the Canadas outside the Windsor-Quebec City corridor; or to deal with Toronto City Hall directly. We're not dealing with any AMO around a new deal for CITIES. And either should Ottawa be, but obviously you don't have any problems and are happy dealing with farmers and such around new deals for CITIES regarding public transit that Ottawa obviously doesn't need a new deal for, or anything else in the country, let alone the province.

Ottawa's mayor, Hamilton's, Mississauga's (it has the same population as Winnipeg and generates more money -- a city-suburb of Toronto that had 57,000 people in 1985, a little farming village, but couldl out-populate Vancover in another 20 years), London, St. Catherines, Windsor, Niagara Falls, maybe even Sudbury -- all should have dropped out of the AMO over the insanity of IT dealing with divying up the money for the "new deal for CITIES" and it's not to the exclusion of everything else, it's due to this:

Quote: Originally Posted by [Ontario

Premier Dalton McGuinty]"If I don't get Toronto, in particular, firing on all cylinders, I won't have the capability to build stronger Kapuskasings and Timminses and small communities around the province of Ontario. This is my engine and it's missing right now.

And...

Premier Dalton McGuinty said it best last fall, in announcing talks toward a new Toronto Act: "It's a bit of a miracle that this city has delivered prosperity for so long and to so many— despite living in a legislative and fiscal straitjacket that would baffle Houdini."

And...

Neglect of cities, most evident in Toronto's decade-long decline, is so startling that even Prime Minister Paul Martin is sounding like a new deal apostle. He said in 2003:

"Contrary to 100 years ago, today new Canadians overwhelmingly settle in cities. Does this not cry out for an updated partnership between us? While immigration is a federal matter, cities are the ones that actually welcome most new immigrants with housing, with social programs, and outreach in all its forms."

Ontario (Southern and not much of it) is where 60% of new immigrants to the Canadas decide to settle. 40% of those in the City of Toronto proper. And the confederate feds pay nothing that Martin is babbling about above, the only reason he was elected, the GTA/greater Toronto area with 40 or so seats gave him a minority government -- based on the new deal for cities and only that because Harper and the "reform-conservatives" were promising a kick in the teeth around it, because their support base is rural, not urban.

So then an umbrella group for over 400 Ontario municipalities, mostly rural towns, villages and hamlets are handed the power (by the McGuinty Ontario feds) to divy up the "new deal for CITIES" money, because if they aren't working then nothing works; and Toronto in particular in its legislative and fiscal straitjacket.

Giving cities back portions of their own taxes so that they can actually run properly is the fastest way to generate more tax revenues by expanding the tax BASE as opposed to raising taxes. Commodities create very few jobs. The prices are based on world supply and demand, not marketing high value goods and services, when there are shortages the prices go up and if new jobs are added due to more business revenues then production is increased, prices go down and the jobs are lost.

It's why Outer Canada has such pathetic markets/populations.

This is how federal transfers work -- per capita because a village of 40,000 people doesn't have anything close to the expenses (around healthcare or anything else) as a city of 500,000 or so people. Or provinces in the case of "federal"-provincial tax returns, in pittances, to Ontario and Quebec:

"Federal" Transfers
2004-05 estimates sorted from the highest, per person, to the lowest

Code:
                                                                                                                        $ per Person / % of Provincial Revenues
                                                                                                        NUNAVAT TERRITORY .....  $25,975 / 88%
                                                                                                        NORTHWEST TERRITORIES .  $16,633 / 78%
                                                                                                        YUKON TERRITORY .......  $15,727 / 76%
                                                                                                        PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND ..  $ 2,930 / 39%
                                                                                                        NEW BRUNSWICK .........  $ 2,739 / 36%
                                                                                                        NOVA SCOTIA ...........  $ 2,455 / 39%
                                                                                                        NEWFOUNDLAND & LABRADOR  $ 2,449 / 32%
                                                                                                        MANITOBA ..............  $ 2,428 / 38%
                                                                                                        QUEBEC ................  $ 1,757 / 25%
                                                                                                        BRITISH COLUMBIA ......  $ 1,383 / 18%
                                                                                                        ONTARIO ...............  $ 1,322 / 21%
                                                                                                        SASKATCHEWAN ..........  $ 1,332 / 20%
                                                                                                    ALBERTA ...............  $ 1,321 / 16%
                                                                                                
Source: http://www.fin.gc.ca/FEDPROV/mtpe.html#Newfoundland (scroll down for all jurisdictions)

Scroll up from the link and there are links explaining what each transfer is for, like the CHT (Canada Health Transfer) subsidizes provincial healthcare programs/services, designed by each provincial legislature, not the feds. The CST/Canada Social Transfer is a "federal" (Inner Canada) subsidy for post-secondary institutions, provincial welfare plans, provincial early childhood education/development programs and other things.

Quebec opted out of both. [Ya, you can all do it so go ahead and start with your own law enforcement then opt of out federal transfers to prove how you can pay for nothing.] Quebec pays for 100% of its healthcare and everything the CST covers. And if you look at the population stats above, well you don't have to (nothing personal, "you" meaning whomever happens to be reading, if anyone cares about anyting but holding onto their illusions/delusions to keep their hatred of what they think is some singular entity of "Quebec" going) because I've done it, the population growth, in real numbers not the percentages others like to use to pretend that they have "higher growth" by adding 100 people to an existing population of 10,000 than 50,000 new people around whatever. 100 new people in a jurisdiction is just that and it amounts to 100 more people to cover with healthcare and everything else -- not 50,000 or any percentage.

Code:
                                                                                                        POPULATION DIFFERENCES       2001        2003      DIFFERENCE +/-  NEW SEATS
                                                                                                            ONTARIO ...............  11,410,146   12,238,300   +828,154        3
                                                                                                            QUEBEC ................   7,237,479    7,487,169   +249,690        0
                                                                                                            BRITISH COLUMBIA ......   3,907,738    4,146,580   +238,842        2
                                                                                                            ALBERTA ...............   2,974,807    3,153,723   +178,916        2
                                                                                                            MANITOBA ..............   1,119,583    1,162,776   + 43,193        0
                                                                                                            NOVA SCOTIA ...........     908,007      936,025   + 28,018        0
                                                                                                            NEW BRUNSWICK .........     729,498      750,594   + 21,096        0
                                                                                                            SASKATCHEWAN ..........     978,933      994,843   + 15,910        0
                                                                                                            NEWFOUNDLAND & LABRADOR     512,930      519,570   +  6,640        0
                                                                                                            PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND ..     135,294      137,781   +  2,487        0
                                                                                                            NORTHWEST TERRITORIES .      37,360      41,872    +  4,512        0
                                                                                                            YUKON TERRITORY .......      28,674      31,060    +  2,386        0
                                                                                                        NUNAVAT TERRITORY .....      26,745      29,384    +  2,639        0
                                                                                                    
I was interested to know how/why B.C. and Alberta managed to pick up 2 new federal seats each while Ontario (Southern as usual) gets 60% of newcomers to the Canadas and 40% of those choose to settle in the City of Toronto, for years, and Ontario only got 3 new seats over the last decade. I'd have to go back to the first federal census after 1990, get those numbers, federal seats are adjusted, are supposed to be, every decade based on the population of each jurisdiction from whenever the first census was of the last decade and the first census of the next, the 2001 census, to see why Quebec ended up with 0 new seats.

But it's also related to healthcare and the fact that Quebec pays for 100% of its provincial healthcare plan (and everything the CST covers). It picked up 249,690 people just from 2001-2003, July 1 pr stats: more than any other province but Ontario. It adds up to new healthcare costs and Quebec is getting hosed on that.

What's the biggest leech in the country just around transfer payments from 'the feds" with their geese that lay golden eggs under magical money trees in the data above? Feel free to check it at the link, it may have changed since I compiled it. Federal transfers are paid out to jurisdictions per quarter and have been corrected/adjusted years after the fact when provincial governments like Newfoundland and Alberta, which have long taken over from Quebec in bitching and crying status for what they think is more of "their own" money back.

If Alberta can come up with another billion or so dollars in taxes this year (fiscal, not over until April 1, 2005) then with over 500,000 more people than the City of Toronto proper -- they'll actually have paid as much out in taxes never to be seen again than the City of Toronto does. Federally. Another $1.6 billion from the City of Toronto proper, no "GTA" or anything else, goes to the Ontario feds, while both federal governments (as far as we're concerened; the Ontario feds can move to North Bay with their good pals and the confederate feds can move to Winnipeg or the like) download their own expenses onto Toronto ciy hall ... and then Alberta can pay for its own law enforcement from top to bottom, bottom to top as "Ontario" and "Quebec" do (south subsidizing everything in the north along with the rest of the Canadas), and the "Canadian" Wheat Board, which only operates in the Western Canadas (provinces) are more provincial subsidies, not "federal" because it's the Western Canadian Wheat Board, not the "Canadian" Wheat Board and right off the top of all federal receipts (called taxes or not) from every jurisdiction, you start by deducting its share of the federal debt, the largest expense of the federal government.

Then the cost of the real federal government. The real federal government. Like the RCMP has to be renamed into the FBI, SS (bodyguards/security for politicians and foriegn dignitaries), just labels, whatever other labels could be used, I'm just using American labels for clarity, then the Alberta Federal "Police" Force (not just cops; all you have to do is think about the Ottawa "police" ... not just cops in cars driving around but every acedemy they train in, the cost of those buildings, the people who train cadets, all equipment used just around that, on up to every "police station" and HQ, and everyone/everything in those, including the buildings and parking lots, holding cells, take a tour if you've never been in a "police station": you won't find many cops. Detectives/investigators/interrogators of various types, tactical units, homicide units, robbery squads, traffic units, all of their salaries and benefits and retirement/pension plans, on and on up to "internal affairs" and administration. "Cops" are worthless without all of the rest), the B.C. Federal Police Force, Nova Scotia Federal Police Force, etc., for every jurisdiction and get their budgets all separated out in federal budgets -- so we can slap them on as provincial subsidies to deduct from the jurisdiction's federal receipts, because its what they are -- subsidies.

It's not easy to take a federal budget along with information released around total and per capita federal revenues received from each jurisdiction, start deducting the jurisdiction's share of the federal debt, share of th cost of th real federal government then separating out things that are called "federal" but aren't, going to those entities to get breakdowns of what gets what handouts, on down the line and all provinces are already out of the running, their taxes are gone with their shares of the federal debt and real federal expenses and then it's noting but subsididies from there on, other than around Ontario, Quebec, Alberta and B.C. but they end up out of the running or barely breaking even most years after all of their real bills then handouts are deducted, they're paying out nothing or are getting more back than they pay out.

Only Ontario and Quebec are left with extra money and it goes into the federal debt and paying for B.C. and Alberta handouts, let alone the rest. And they have larger provincial debts to service than the entire GDP's of any other province, and by lightyears, more internal expenses to pay than any other jurisdiction, including their portions of Outer Canada doing little but producing raw commodities.

As with all transfer payments, it costs less money to have one federal tax code (set of laws) for everything in the federation and to (usually, other than around those who are behind in tax payments and corporate taxes, provincial, GST); personal income taxes paid out once a year, calclate the revenues of each jurisdiction then make ESTIMATES of what their transfer payments are going to be, pay them out quarterly and adjust them - as opposed to trying to do it backwards, charging no taxes to places like, well, most of Outer Canada, and administering/auditing myriad different tax systems with different laws/rules, adjusted quarterly.

Quebec pays the highest per capita taxes in the federation -- and actually has a capita. Its population amounts to Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick combined.

But it opted out of the Canada Health/Social Transfer from themselves, pittances of their own taxes back, because it is economically impossible for anything but Southern Ontario to pay one cent into Quebec's economy. And it has happened but over mistakes and they've been corrected. Anything that does go into Quebec that others think they claim to know it "doesn't deserve" has no right to an opinion unless they live in Southern Ontario because their entire provincial economies couldn't afford to "fund" the City of Toronto ($13.4 billion of its own taxes back, then anything on top of that would be "funding" out of the pockets of other taxpayers) let alone Quebec.

Regardless of the highest per capita taxes in the country paid out by Quebec (with a real capita, the total paid out is public information and is all that matters aside from what is sent back -- where per capita REALLY matters -- you/whomever can find it at any number of places but the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, www.taxpayer.com, has lots of documents from various RELIABLE sources and they don't jump the gun with estimates/early releases of free public information that is rarely acurate) but Quebec pays for 100% of its provincial healthcare, post-secondary institutions, provincial welfare, etc.

It has to be paid that money back, because, as with Newfoundland and everything else, that's how it works. The only no strings attached grant the feds can use to pay Quebec back with, for opting out of the CHST, CHT/CST now, is the equalization transfer. There is no other way to do it.

And Quebec is geting HOSED around it, with the number of new people it ends up with, while B.C. sits back with the most ultra-socialist provincial programs in the country, running up provincial expenses, provincial deficits, so it's back on equalization handouts for NO REASON other than that it has a budget deficit. It doesn't qualify for equalization (but either does Newfoundland&Labrador or Nova Scotia using Alberta's wonderful example from the 1960's, 0% taxes on oil/natural gas and forget about even the rule of 70% of natural resources in provincial revenue income being applied against equalization welfare handouts, which are paid for exclusively by Southern Onario taxpayers, and Alberta did it for seven years setting the wonderful "conservative" ultra-socialist, just plain greed/abuse precedent for N&L and NS -- which they use ... and now New Brunswick, Saskatchewan and B.C., even Quebec, why not, energy is energy, hydro electric, don't tax it and don't apply it against ANY "equalization" as per Alberta, Nwwfoundland's ridiculous flag-flapping, when it's worth all of 1.28% of the GDP; Quebec is worth 21.06% -- it actually matters, Newfoundland, nothing in the Atlantic Canadas matters, they're nothing but leeches and it's all they've ever been), it hasn't opted out of any federal transfers as Quebec has, it just gets handed over half a billion dollars a year for no apparent reason at all -- and B.C.'s Finance Minister claims that it's going to keep ripping the equalization system off well into the nezt decade -- not only until B.C.'s budget is balanced but until it has a specific $1.x BILLION SURPLUS. Must be nice. We have to get ourselves out of our own fiscal problems. Socialist leeches.

Newfoundland&Labrador's provincial government, over its ridiculous flag-flapping, little kids who need a good smack upside the head, gets to pay zero in taxes on all oil and gas revenues that its provincial government will instead get to keep, in offshore oil sitting in federal waters (and they can try to come up with the money to build their own Navy and Coast Guard if they think they have any claims in federal waters) but ALSO gets to pretend that those provincial revenues don't exist -- to keep 100% of their equalization welfare handouts from Southern Ontario taxpayers entirely around that transfer, which is like being on welfare (not in Ontario or you'd be in the Ontario Works program and would have to get a job or get your benefits cut, unlike anywhere else in this mess, like the welfare havens of the world, which B.C. is well known for, let alone the Atlantic Canadas), winning the multi-million dollar lottery with tickets you didn't even pay for, then demanding that you get to keep 100% of your welfare handouts AND pay no taxes on anything you buy with your winnings.

It's all they've done, and they got away with it, so now everything else (but the usual -- the real goose that lays the golden eggs under the magical money trees; Southern Ontario but Toronto has had it) is trying the same. And it can all be traced directly back to Alberta. And the Newfie government also got over $2 billion as a gift for no apparent reason, and Nova Scotia almost a billion. We can't afford this crap.

And the Newfoundland&Labrador government are getting over $2,000 more per capita to spend on their provincial programs/services than the ONTARIO government is getting and WE PAY FOR 100% OF EQUALIZATION HANDOUTS. Nothing is ever supposed to collect more in provincial revenues than Ontario AND collect equalization welfare at the same time.

But Newfoundland and Nova Scotia are both doing it and they were also handed $2 billion (Newfie) and $1 billion (Nova Scotia) out of the blue, for no apparent reason. If they were WORTH something, even votes, it might make some sense. But they're not an they've had their seven year free rides that Alberta got and now have another 8 years, minimum, for no apparent reason, when they should have been told to BURN flags if they wanted to, the rules are the rules. But the liberals have a minority government and the "conservatives" fully supported this disaster and the liberals had a budget to try to pass. And it's so odd that the 'conservatives" are doin the usual, bitching and crying about the budget, but voting for it. Why not just vote against it and crash the government? Because they know they'd lose badly in an election for doing so, or just plain having Ontario and Quebec fed up with them wasting our money with meaningless criticism that they don't even believe themselves. They should vote against the budget with all of their bitching and moaning about it, and we can have another election and stick the "conservatives" where they belong -- in Calgary, at some church, to get a majority "liberal" (quite conservative actually) government back so we don't have to waste so much time and money over completely meaningless bitching and moaning.

Don't try to tell me that Outer Canada could exist without Inner Canada. And Southwest Quebec, the Montreal area in particular, is part of Inner Canada. They are net contributors, not leeches. Go ahead and put rural Quebeckers down. See how it works for the rest of the rural Canadas, because it's even worse and particularly in the Western Canadas.

You want something interesting to read, Ottawa?

Quote:

Where Tax Dollars Go to Die

Here's how Ottawa prospers, thanks to Canadians like you and me.

BY DON MARTIN FROM CALGARY HERALD

The typical Ottawa bereaucrat is 43 years young, books off a few extra mental-health days a year, tends to file hefty prescritpion-drug claims and fantasizes about quitting for a better job, which, given the capital's bone-chilling winter, probably involves running a scuba school in Belize.

Government bureaucrats' other defining trait: Turn 'em loose in a free-spending government and they breed like rabbits.

Federal workers are the driving force behind the latest Ottawa paradox: Barely a year after Ottawa's booming hi-tech industry collapsed, the capital is posting record-high job creation, has one of the hottest housing markets in Canada, has commuters screeching for relief from stop-and-slow freeways and a population of some of the most giddy spendthrifts in the nation.

All this prosperity is courtesy of you, the Canadian taxpayer.

The most recent paint-by-statistics picture puts the total federal bureaucracy at 238,000 employees. In the past five years, the Ottawa region has added countless new listings to its 582-page government directory, creating a local employment base of over 110,000, according to MP Brian Pallister [PORTAGE-LISGAR, MANITOBA, Canadian Alliance Party]. That's 45 percent of the national total.

The bloat can be found in dozens of departments. It's a no-brainer that having a billion-dollar gun registry loaded with deskbound duds partially explains why the Justice Department has almost doubled its 1994 staff count to 4,394.

Less obvious is why giving away money through the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency requires a more than 50 percent jump, to 564 workers.

But perhaps the most worrisome growth curve has been in Health, which stands to be the prime beneficiary of John Manley's [Federal Minister of Finance for any non-Canadians reading] bid to divest himself of a $10.4 billion cumulative budget surplus announced last May. [This is worded a bit screwed up/cleverly, it's not a "beneficiary," it's money out federal taxes paid back to provincial governments for their healthcare systems, our own money, to produce a $10.4 billion Federal budget surplus, which will go to paying for all of this garbage instead.]

Ottawa now employs 8,450 Health Canada bureaucrats to supervise an area of provincial jurisdiction. [As a sidenote, Health Canada will/has also pay whatever it takes in our tax money to keep any totally negligent healthcare worker from being sued; lawyers won't even take cases because of it.] It should also be noted that Alberta Premier Ralph Klein was probably dead wrong to declare the Kyoto Protocol a job killer: It took about 1,000 federal-provincial staff just to create various climate-change models on papers, says Pallister.

This, with talk of handing out $1 billion to actually implement the accord, federal staffing is set to explode to negotiate Kyoto greenhouse-gas-reduction targets with individual companies and to monitor compliance by the entire nation.

And so many new public servants obviously require a lot of executives to provide supervision. That explains why the Privy Council has ballooned 24% to 678 staff, in five years and why the keeper of the keys, the [http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/]Treasury Board[/url], has boosted its staffing by more than a third, to 1,080 positions.

Of course, all those new bodies require desks, which explains why a government-driven building boom is set to hit downtown Ottawa in the next three years, while high-tech space sits empty in outer suburbia.

A new $276 million tower will rise on the western edge of Parliament Hill. Tenders have been let for over $42 million worth of government space across the Ottawa River in Gatineau, Que. [Why not in every city; or better, none?] Another $255 million worth of downtown office towers are being considered, says Pallister, for federal purchase or lease.

And we haven't even begun to debate the $60 million CBC building, a new war museum, renovations for a Canadian history museum and a revamped nation portrait gallery just down the street from a new federal court building.

So if you want to see where your tax dollars go to die, come to Ottawa. Fat city is back--and getting bigger every day.

What were you saying about Quebec again, Ottawa?
 
EagleSmack
#73
Quote: Originally Posted by s_lone

As a quebecer with an anglo-franco background, I have to say that while my mind is canadian, my heart truly is Quebecois. Sadly, my Canadian nationalist feeling is quite vague and would be practically inexistant if I hadn't been raised in a bilingual home. Why? Because Quebec culture is more concentrated geographically and can be felt more strongly than the Canadian one. Canada is huge with not so many people. It'll take more time for a truly vibrant national unity to appear. I'm quite split on the subject because I do believe in the future of Canada, but I think it really needs significant reforms. How about becoming the CPU. (Canadian Provinces Union). Let EVERY province "seperate" and really take business into their own hands but WITHOUT destroying what is already holding us together. It would be a bit like kids leaving their parent's home (Ottawa) but staying united by strong and true family ties. I would see this new Canadian Union as a political family in which each member is mature enough to take their own decisions. This wouldn't stop us from being strongly united economically and politically. I'm not saying the hell with Ottawa, but I certainly think Ottawa should not be a place where money is split apart. It should rather be a place where money is put together for common interests. Presently, the provinces are all like children fighting for their share. It's time for every province to grow up and trace their own future. Que chaque province vole de ses propres ailes!

Of course, many would say that we offer better resistance to the US cultural invasion if we stay united in a centralised federation but English Canada isn't giving a very good example as compared to Quebecers. We have our own star system, Quebec television and film industry is rich, diversified and yes, profitable. Of course, Quebecers consume lots of American culture too but at least our own culture is as strong. Could you say the same thing from English Canadian culture? I'm not saying there's no quality English Canadian TV and cinema (lots of outstanding stuff!) Candian culture reflects the intelligence of its people. But the support it gets from common English Canadians is mediocre! At least the musical situation seems better...

I think a VERY decentralised federation would allow a much stronger resistance in the way that micro cultures could gain more support. Perhaps some states in the US would start envying the power our provinces and cause changes down south. BC, for example, could stop wasting money teaching mandatory French in school and start focusing more on embracing Asian culture. How much money has been wasted in keeping this country united when all we would need is an inversion of power. Power should belong first to the provinces.

As for economy, I may be naive but to me it is a no-brainer that Canada is stupidly dependant of American economy. We've got less people to feed and more natural resources so logically, we should be doing a lot better than they are.

This is interesting becuase I have been told that Canada is unified and that what you say is really a minority voice. Basically your opinion is irrelevent.

Do many people from Quebec think this way or is it just some?
 
Reverend Blair
#74
It is fewer than half according to the last referendum, EagleSmack. It has, according to the polls, gone down since then.

That doesn't make the separatism movement or those in it irrelevant though. They are a strong political force not just for Quebec, but because of the social policies of the PQ and BQ, across Canada. Much of their support in Quebec is based on policies that have nothing to do with separating from Canada. They have influence in the rest of Canada is because of the programs and ideas the promote.

You need to learn a lot more about Canada if you want to discuss our politics, EagleSmack...they are much more complex than politics in the United States because our mainstream political spectrum is much wider.
 
EagleSmack
#75
Quote: Originally Posted by Reverend Blair

It is fewer than half according to the last referendum, EagleSmack. It has, according to the polls, gone down since then.

That doesn't make the separatism movement or those in it irrelevant though. They are a strong political force not just for Quebec, but because of the social policies of the PQ and BQ, across Canada. Much of their support in Quebec is based on policies that have nothing to do with separating from Canada. They have influence in the rest of Canada is because of the programs and ideas the promote.

You need to learn a lot more about Canada if you want to discuss our politics, EagleSmack...they are much more complex than politics in the United States because our mainstream political spectrum is much wider.

I was just curious because some people on here <cough> have stated that everything is perfect up there in Canada and there are no problems. And if there are problems it is usually the fault of the US.

But this gentleman comes along and post that things are not as rosy as they have been reported. He stated that Quebecois feel separate from the rest of Canada. They feel that their culture is unique from Canadians!

It is very eye opening... yes indeed.
 
Reverend Blair
#76
Quote:

I was just curious because some people on here <cough> have stated that everything is perfect up there in Canada and there are no problems.

Oh? Who has said that? Can you provide a link?
 
EagleSmack
#77
Quote: Originally Posted by Reverend Blair

Quote:

I was just curious because some people on here <cough> have stated that everything is perfect up there in Canada and there are no problems.

Oh? Who has said that? Can you provide a link?


I do not think you have enough memory on your sever to cut and paste it all.

But no bother... I am just saying that it is interesting to hear what a separatist has to say.
 
EagleSmack
#78
Quote: Originally Posted by Reverend Blair

Quote:

I was just curious because some people on here <cough> have stated that everything is perfect up there in Canada and there are no problems.

Oh? Who has said that? Can you provide a link?


I do not think you have enough memory on your server to cut and paste it all.

But no bother... I am just saying that it is interesting to hear what a separatist has to say.
 
EagleSmack
#79
Sorry for the double post.

Mea Culpa.

Reverend... Do your duty please.
 
Reverend Blair
#80
No, you were making a claim that was patently untrue in an attempt to start a scap. You are nothing but a mindless, jingoistic troll.
 
s_lone
#81
The issue of Quebec seperatist movement certainly is not irrelevant. The threat that Quebec might seperate has been lingering above the federal government for about 30 years and it has forced politicians to be very careful about their actions, knowing very well that whenever Quebecers are angry, seperation becomes an issue again... Quebecers have a quite powerful weight in the shaping of Canada. If Canada had joined the US for the war in Irak, I can assure you that seperatism would have flared up dangerously in Quebec. Presently, Quebecers are very unsatisfied with their Liberal (federalist) government. The PQ (seperatist party and official opposition) is presently trying to actualize its politics and principles. Luckily for the federalists, the PQ is slowed down by internal conflicts concerning leadership and "how-to-seperate" issues.

IF the PQ manages to give itself a new image that younger generations can connect to, I won't be surprised if we have a third referendum coming up. Probably between 2008 and 2010. And results could be surprising... The seperatist movement can gain strength as easily as it can lose some... If the PQ fails to rejuvenate itself, the next provincial elections will be quite exciting because Qubecers would be stuck to choose between the hated Liberal Party and an outdated PQ. They might choose neither. The ADQ could possibly gain lots of support but their is a common suspicion about them (they were incoherent in the last election campaign...), they still have work to do to connect with the population. A new political party (fusion of small left-wing parties) is presently taking form called Option Citoyenne (Citizen option). Its leader is a woman and from what I heard of her, I think she will connect quite well with the values of Quebecers. And the fact that she could gain support from WOMEN is certainly not to deny... (A recent poll said that more than 90% of Quebecers would vote for a woman as prime minister...). This new party is still in the process of deciding if they want to seperate or not. Whatever happens, I believe Quebec is heading for exciting political changes. If we choose not to seperate, it could actually be pressure and frustration coming from the rest of Canada that would cause the nation to reconsider the nature of our federation. English Canadians (especially in the west) might end up sick and tired of seeing Quebecers constantly confronting Ottawa and getting a "special status". The resistant attitude of Quebecers is not about to stop, whether Quebec seperates or not, and it will continue to have a strong influence on the future of Canada.
 
EagleSmack
#82
Quote: Originally Posted by s_lone

The issue of Quebec seperatist movement certainly is not irrelevant. The threat that Quebec might seperate has been lingering above the federal government for about 30 years and it has forced politicians to be very careful about their actions, knowing very well that whenever Quebecers are angry, seperation becomes an issue again... Quebecers have a quite powerful weight in the shaping of Canada. If Canada had joined the US for the war in Irak, I can assure you that seperatism would have flared up dangerously in Quebec. Presently, Quebecers are very unsatisfied with their Liberal (federalist) government. The PQ (seperatist party and official opposition) is presently trying to actualize its politics and principles. Luckily for the federalists, the PQ is slowed down by internal conflicts concerning leadership and "how-to-seperate" issues.

IF the PQ manages to give itself a new image that younger generations can connect to, I won't be surprised if we have a third referendum coming up. Probably between 2008 and 2010. And results could be surprising... The seperatist movement can gain strength as easily as it can lose some... If the PQ fails to rejuvenate itself, the next provincial elections will be quite exciting because Qubecers would be stuck to choose between the hated Liberal Party and an outdated PQ. They might choose neither. The ADQ could possibly gain lots of support but their is a common suspicion about them (they were incoherent in the last election campaign...), they still have work to do to connect with the population. A new political party (fusion of small left-wing parties) is presently taking form called Option Citoyenne (Citizen option). Its leader is a woman and from what I heard of her, I think she will connect quite well with the values of Quebecers. And the fact that she could gain support from WOMEN is certainly not to deny... (A recent poll said that more than 90% of Quebecers would vote for a woman as prime minister...). This new party is still in the process of deciding if they want to seperate or not. Whatever happens, I believe Quebec is heading for exciting political changes. If we choose not to seperate, it could actually be pressure and frustration coming from the rest of Canada that would cause the nation to reconsider the nature of our federation. English Canadians (especially in the west) might end up sick and tired of seeing Quebecers constantly confronting Ottawa and getting a "special status". The resistant attitude of Quebecers is not about to stop, whether Quebec seperates or not, and it will continue to have a strong influence on the future of Canada.

S_Lone... this is very interesting. So it appears that the separatist movement is much bigger than I was led to believe but some.

And 2008 and 2010 are right around the corner. What sort of atmosphere will another Separatist Referendum build in Canada?
 
Reverend Blair
#83
Remember that is an analysis that many don't agree with, Eaglesmack. It is also built on political fact instead of a misreading of Canadian history, as you were doing.

If the Conservatives under Stephen Harper or anyone like him get in, you can pretty much count on a new referendum. If Stephen Harper gets in with a majority, count Quebec gone. I think that's likely a pretty smart move too...get out while the getting is good.

Quebec's wealth is built on hydro power and the US will keep buying it whether Quebec is a part of Canada or not. So will Ontario. The biggest problem Quebec will face will be native issues. That is the one thing that could turn into a shooting war.
 
EagleSmack
#84
Hey I am just trying to learn. I am not close minded.

This really throws that unity question to and fro. You know Canada as ONE. It seems like there is a huge culture gap and that has built separatism. An "IDENTITY" thing or lack thereof.

I bet we will buy some of that hydro-power still. I'm sure our money will be still good there.
 
s_lone
#85
Reverend B. is right in pointing out that my analysis is one that many don't agree on. He is also right in saying that a solid Conservative victory would be a major threat in Canadian unity. As for the native issue, it would indeed be a very complicated puzzle to solve...

My prediction of a referendum between 2008-2010 has a bit of wishful thinking I admit. But it's still a fairly realist prediction. It must be remembered that this seperation issue depends on many many factors and opinions tend to change fast on that issue... How will Canada-US relationships evolve? How will Canada's role, power and image evolve throughout the world? How will world politics evolve? International events will probably unfold at a growing speed and by 2010, tensions could be pretty high... It is very possible that Quebecers figure it would be wiser to stick around with their good old Canadian friends if ever the threat of a 3rd world war becomes real.

One thing to remember, Canadians should not take for granted that Quebec is in Canada for good.

And if there is a 3rd referendum, the atmosphere will be quite vicious. Probably no violence because Canadians and Quebecers have always been peaceful (with little exceptions...) ... If it becomes violent, it is truly a sign of the apocalypse! hehehe...
 
Reverend Blair
#86
Quote:

It must be remembered that this seperation issue depends on many many factors and opinions tend to change fast on that issue... How will Canada-US relationships evolve? How will Canada's role, power and image evolve throughout the world? How will world politics evolve? International events will probably unfold at a growing speed and by 2010, tensions could be pretty high.

Quebec has, more often than not, gotten its way on international issues (Kyoto, BMD, Iraq) though, S_lone. A lot of that is because Quebec opinion not that far removed from Canadian opinion in general. Those of us who support the same international programs also depend on Quebec's influence...the relationship goes both ways.

If I was living in Quebec, I'd likely be voting BQ federally and PQ provincially because the NDP aren't a force there. That being said, I wouldn't be voting for separation in a referendum.
 
EagleSmack
#87
Quote: Originally Posted by s_lone

Reverend B. is right in pointing out that my analysis is one that many don't agree on. He is also right in saying that a solid Conservative victory would be a major threat in Canadian unity. As for the native issue, it would indeed be a very complicated puzzle to solve...

My prediction of a referendum between 2008-2010 has a bit of wishful thinking I admit. But it's still a fairly realist prediction. It must be remembered that this seperation issue depends on many many factors and opinions tend to change fast on that issue... How will Canada-US relationships evolve? How will Canada's role, power and image evolve throughout the world? How will world politics evolve? International events will probably unfold at a growing speed and by 2010, tensions could be pretty high... It is very possible that Quebecers figure it would be wiser to stick around with their good old Canadian friends if ever the threat of a 3rd world war becomes real.

One thing to remember, Canadians should not take for granted that Quebec is in Canada for good.

And if there is a 3rd referendum, the atmosphere will be quite vicious. Probably no violence because Canadians and Quebecers have always been peaceful (with little exceptions...) ... If it becomes violent, it is truly a sign of the apocalypse! hehehe...

Got you s-lone.

One thing I noticed you said something along the lines of "Quebecers sticking with their Canadian friends." Do folks from Quebec feel separate from Canadians? For example, I see that statement and I think of someone saying

"I'm a Floridian not an American" (Although I've never heard that before)

Am I off base? I could be.

Does the rest of Canada take advantage of Quebec as you said?

This is interesting stuff.
 
jackd
#88
Eagle:
A very large portion of Quebecers will identify themselfs first as being a "Quebecois", then if necessary or useful, as a Canadian.
I would have a hard time right now to find a Canadian flag flying in Quebec(except on some official buildings) but I see Quebec flag all the time. Even on our Parliament Building in Quebec, The Quebec flag flies high while the Canadian flag is barely visible if it even exists.. This, even with a Federalist provincial government.
I know (for having lived there) Floridians would never say they are "Floridians"
 
EagleSmack
#89
Quote: Originally Posted by jackd

Eagle:
A very large portion of Quebecers will identify themselfs first as being a "Quebecois", then if necessary or useful, as a Canadian.
I would have a hard time right now to find a Canadian flag flying in Quebec(except on some official buildings) but I see Quebec flag all the time. Even on our Parliament Building in Quebec, The Quebec flag flies high while the Canadian flag is barely visible if it even exists.. This, even with a Federalist provincial government.
I know (for having lived there) Floridians would never say they are "Floridians"

So if they are in the minority... why does the Quebec flag fly in more prominent places than the Canadian flag?

It sounds like it is really divided up there... at least in Quebec. How big is that Province in relation to the others?
 
Reverend Blair
#90
Texas isn't that different, EagleSmack. Maybe you should have used it as an example?
 

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